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State tournament class statistics to not necessarily incite class wrestling discussion


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13 hours ago, IU89 said:

You have no clue what you’re saying. My son’s freshman year of HS, we had 5 JV kids that finished in the top 3 of ISWA folk style state beating 9 state placers in the process. 
 

Your logic is making the case for a classed tournament. 

 

That's pretty awesome, but I believe this would be the exception not the rule.

 

Are you willing to name the kids who did this? What school they attended? What State placers they beat & the year this happened?

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In all fairness....I think Silas has solidified himself as a pretty special talent regardless of school size.  So with all do respect, I genuinely feel to draw a question about why aren’t more 1A or 2

This whole thread and group of replies has became ridiculous.  I feel that there's a lot of common sense left out of many statements made in this thread.   We just had a kid become a two tim

Let me just throw in here...   TEAM class wrestling = YES INDIVIDUAL class wrestling = NO   How in the wide world of sports did Silas Allred possibly manage to compete at the

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So what is the bigger factor: money or school size? 

 

If a school is one of those "they got money" schools does it really matter their size?  The money gives them the opportunities that are described as benefits to large schools - training partners (clubs), coaching etc...

 

There are many large schools that do not serve a "money" population that struggle in wresting and other sports.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

That's pretty awesome, but I believe this would be the exception not the rule.

 

Are you willing to name the kids who did this? What school they attended? What State placers they beat & the year this happened?

1.  There are a handful of cases, where some varsity B/JV kids that could qualify for state.    The Blue Chippers like Brownsburg, Cathedral, Warren, EMD are deep and there 2nd string could make state.  But rare.   I do recall about 5 years ago, Penn had a good kid behind Osborne and other state quality level kids and the kid wrestled Varsity B all year.   But next year was wrestling on a college team beating state placers.  @UncleJimmy or @M109R know the kid.

 

2.  Back to the original point, if a rule allowed for schools to enter two kids.  The big programs would have a lot of varsity B kids placing at sectional and regional and would squeeze out the small schools.    Maybe the elite wrestlers small schools would  make it through, but this would take out tons of 1A and 2a regional and SS qualifiers.  Check the scores of the Varsity B teams and they end up wrestling small programs and win more than they lose.  

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

1.  There are a handful of cases, where some varsity B/JV kids that could qualify for state.    The Blue Chippers like Brownsburg, Cathedral, Warren, EMD are deep and there 2nd string could make state.  But rare.   I do recall about 5 years ago, Penn had a good kid behind Osborne and other state quality level kids and the kid wrestled Varsity B all year.   But next year was wrestling on a college team beating state placers.  @UncleJimmy or @M109R know the kid.

 

2.  Back to the original point, if a rule allowed for schools to enter two kids.  The big programs would have a lot of varsity B kids placing at sectional and regional and would squeeze out the small schools.    Maybe the elite wrestlers small schools would  make it through, but this would take out tons of 1A and 2a regional and SS qualifiers.  Check the scores of the Varsity B teams and they end up wrestling small programs and win more than they lose.  

 

 

 

I completely agree that some large school JV wrestlers would beat out small school kids at the sectional & regional level. I have previously stated this in a earlier post in this thread.

 

But I believe it would be rare for a large school JV kid to beat a small school state qualifier. Those kids are going to be state qualifiers no matter what school they attend. But yes there is going to be an exception once in a while. I think it is extremely exceptional if a school had 5 JV wrestlers who beat 9 state qualifiers in a single year. But where all those state qualifiers small school kids?

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10 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

So all small schools have poor coaches? This is news to me. Sorry but I disagree. I believe there are large & small schools that have very good coaching staffs, just as there are both large & small schools that have less than stellar staffs. This is an advantage at some schools but to say it is divided by school size is presumptuous & even offensive, IMO.

 

And why exactly is weightlifting & nutrition a large school advantage? Does having more/newer equipment an advantage? Does having a nicer facility to practice in an advantage? I think that it really isn't. But even if it is, it is only very slightly.

 

Having better practice partners/teammates to push you is one I'll concede.

 

For me the crux of the debate is whether or not each individual is on a level playing field, but several of the small school guys have often reverted back to the school/team portion of the issue. FYI, that is not what I have been debating.

Absolutely not stating that all small schools have poor coaching, don't get it twisted here. What I'm saying is that on average, the coaching received at a larger school is more solid and there's several reasons for this, namely the difference in pay between the large schools and small schools. I can tell you there are several coaches that have left smaller schools for larger because of opportunity to put kids into the state finals on a more regular basis (an issue that would be resolved with class wrestling), just as another reason. Put up a poll and see why coaches move from smaller schools to larger. I think it'd be interesting to see the reasons given.

 

One obvious reason that hasn't been touched on is the fact that there aren't as many teaching jobs in small schools, so if they can get a great coach in place, he's often not able to be in the building to teach all day. This makes a big difference in the ability to recruit and retain wrestlers. And the larger the school, the more potential openings to get more coaches in the building and have more coaches period. I've been doing this for a decade and believe it or not, not every athlete I've coached has liked me or my style of coaching or wrestling. But I work hard to hire assistants who will stay in the same philosophy but have different strengths and expertise that allow us to be a well rounded staff. This catches many of the athletes that may not jive super well with me, but they really like being coached by one of my assistants. This opportunity is often lost at a small school where there is only one assistant stipend, if that. The ability to recruit and retain assistants is a HUGE difference between the different sized schools, eliminating even MORE of their potential athlete pool.

 

I'm not trying to knock the coaching at small schools, I've known many awesome coaches at smaller schools that are still there. It's a labor of love for them and they are killing it in their own right. When they find their group of committed individuals they do great things and are just as successful, I'm just pointing out that it's a lot harder to get and keep a great coach at a small school with a limited budget. Of course it happens, but far more often it doesn't happen. I feel as though you point out the successes of a Mater Dei, Oak Hill, or Wabash, but neglect that there are dozens of 1A and 2A schools like Taylor Kokomo or South Vermillion that haven't had an individual qualify for state in years (Y2 just posted a bunch of this data, but I don't have time to review it all) and this year didn't even get a Regional Qualifier. I know the data suggests that 1A schools are qualifying the right numbers of individuals, but they're all from the same schools that have been able to buck the overall trends. That doesn't make it equal for all individuals.

 

With regards to weight training, most small schools don't have a strength coach on staff so they're at the mercy of their own coach's expertise or the internet research they can do(which will be extremely variant from place to place). Is it a huge difference? Perhaps not, but these things all add up. Even if the kids from school A are only getting a 10% boost from their weights coach and a 10% boost from their practice partners, that's a 20% advantage (assuming they have equal coaching). 

 

I agree the crux is whether or not each INDIVIDUAL is on a level playing field, and I'm arguing they're not. A kid that grows up at Small school A with a coach that is part time because he owns his own landscaping company and can't afford to take off to help during the offseason and there is no local club and they have to drive farther for tournaments and they have to pay for hotels to stay there and compete and drive to a larger city to train just so they can  have a practice partner that's able to push them is NOT on an equal playing field to a kid who grows up at Large School B where the coach is engaging athletes year round, they start wrestling in a club learning the system at the age of 4-8 and can train locally with quality practice partners whenever they please.

 

Can these odds be overcome? Most definitely! But they are not on an equal playing field to start. It takes MORE sacrifice to succeed in our sport when you grow up in a small school system and that is by definition, not equal.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying these guys from large schools aren't working hard or sacrificing, they are and you don't succeed without it in our sport. However, there are inherent advantages to growing up in Avon/Brownsburg, Evansville, etc; compared to growing up in Fairmount,Salem, Bloomfield etc; that make the sacrifices slightly less (fewer hotel costs, a quality local club, more academy options nearby, etc;). 

 

I don't think anyone is saying that school size is the only factor here, it's definitely not, and I'd argue not even the biggest factor, but it's what everyone is used to using to classify schools, so there's the argument.

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1 hour ago, AJ said:

So what is the bigger factor: money of school size? 

 

If a school is one of those "they got money" schools does it really matter their size?  The money gives them the opportunities that are described as benefits to large schools - training partners (clubs), coaching etc...

 

There are many large schools that do not serve a "money" population that struggle in wresting and other sports.

 

 

 

This is a really good point, but what alternative have we? If that is the logic of the advantage/disadvantage, then why do we class team state by school size? Shouldn't the money logic apply to the team as much as the individual?

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Question, so earlier we have the stats with the amount of qualifiers in each class compared to enrollment. My question is with these states that have classed wrestling does their numbers add up? I assume for example in Ohio the qualifiers are split 3 ways between small, medium, and big. I also assume the combined enrollment of the small school does not equal 33.3%  My point is Ohio is a very competive state and it doesn't seem to hold them back they are classed. I know their D1 Programs(big School) are the top programs but their D2 programs have success at a national level as well. Maybe not as much with D3 but I know their D3 have success at some level in college.

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10 minutes ago, Galagore said:

 

This is a really good point, but what alternative have we? If that is the logic of the advantage/disadvantage, then why do we class team state by school size? Shouldn't the money logic apply to the team as much as the individual?

I still don't understand the logic in separating these two. What ever disadvantage a team has the individuals are going through the same disadvantage. When a wrestler only has 3-5 wrestlers to wrestle in a generous weight range they are at a disadvantage to a kid that has 10-15 in a better weight range. Iron Sharpens Iron, but it's hard to hard to have this when a wrestler has to go up 10-15 pounds to get a good wrestling partner. You can't tell me a 113 pounder on a school that has to wrestle a 132 pounder is on even ground as 113 pounder and 132 pounder that get to wrestle wrestlers in their weight class or 1 weight class below or up.

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26 minutes ago, bbulldog152 said:

My point is Ohio is a very competive state and it doesn't seem to hold them back they are classed.

 

I don't believe anyone has argued that classing in Indiana is somehow going to hold us back &/or degrade our quality. I know I haven't.

 

I simply contend that I like our tournament because it crowns one champ at each weight class, & we would lose this if we separate into classes. And I just don't believe that the small school individual is at some big disadvantage.

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48 minutes ago, bbulldog152 said:

Question, so earlier we have the stats with the amount of qualifiers in each class compared to enrollment. My question is with these states that have classed wrestling does their numbers add up? I assume for example in Ohio the qualifiers are split 3 ways between small, medium, and big. I also assume the combined enrollment of the small school does not equal 33.3%  My point is Ohio is a very competive state and it doesn't seem to hold them back they are classed. I know their D1 Programs(big School) are the top programs but their D2 programs have success at a national level as well. Maybe not as much with D3 but I know their D3 have success at some level in college.

See the Steiber brothers for Ohio d3 success.

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1 hour ago, bbulldog152 said:

I still don't understand the logic in separating these two. What ever disadvantage a team has the individuals are going through the same disadvantage. When a wrestler only has 3-5 wrestlers to wrestle in a generous weight range they are at a disadvantage to a kid that has 10-15 in a better weight range. Iron Sharpens Iron, but it's hard to hard to have this when a wrestler has to go up 10-15 pounds to get a good wrestling partner. You can't tell me a 113 pounder on a school that has to wrestle a 132 pounder is on even ground as 113 pounder and 132 pounder that get to wrestle wrestlers in their weight class or 1 weight class below or up.

We're on the same page, you and me.

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52 minutes ago, Coach Brobst said:

Absolutely not stating that all small schools have poor coaching, don't get it twisted here. What I'm saying is that on average, the coaching received at a larger school is more solid... Is this really true? Not all large schools have good wrestling staffs/programs. Are quality small school wrestling coaches leaving for just any large school or is it ones with traditional/established wrestling programs? I could list plenty of large schools with poor wrestling programs but I won't. Yes, good coaching is an advantage but I'm not convinced good coaching is a small vs large school issue.

 

I feel as though you point out the successes of a Mater Dei, Oak Hill, or Wabash, but neglect that there are dozens of 1A and 2A schools like Taylor Kokomo or South Vermillion that haven't had an individual qualify for state in years (Y2 just posted a bunch of this data, but I don't have time to review it all) and this year didn't even get a Regional Qualifier. I know the data suggests that 1A schools are qualifying the right numbers of individuals, but they're all from the same schools that have been able to buck the overall trends. That doesn't make it equal for all individuals. But is this not true of the large schools as well? There are several large schools that dominate & are consistently producing a large number of the studs as well. Yes, you are going to have more large schools that despite the lack of a strong wrestling tradition can produce the occasional stud &/or good team because of the enrollment numbers, but shouldn't this be expected?

 

With regards to weight training, most small schools don't have a strength coach on staff... How many large schools have a dedicated strength coach? I legitimately don't know. I know my kids attended a large school in Evansville & that school did not have one.

 

I agree the crux is whether or not each INDIVIDUAL is on a level playing field, and I'm arguing they're not. A kid that grows up at Small a school ...and there is no local club and they have to drive farther for tournaments...  ...is NOT on an equal playing field to a kid who grows up at Large a School where the coach is engaging athletes year round, they start wrestling in a club learning the system at the age of 4-8 and can train locally with quality practice partners whenever they please. Again, this is not entirely a large school vs small school issue. It is a locality issue. The small schools in the Evansville are have reasonable access to the Maurer Coughlin Wrestling Club, and all the Indy area small schools have access to quality wrestling clubs. To me this is a locality issue rather than a school size issue, but I do recognize that many small schools are rural & don't have wrestling clubs in close proximity.

 

 

...However, there are inherent advantages to growing up in Avon/Brownsburg, Evansville, etc; OK, so again it is a locality issue not a size issue right? And again, there are plenty of small schools in the Evansville area.

 

...I don't think anyone is saying that school size is the only factor here, it's definitely not, and I'd argue not even the biggest factor... I agree, that's all I have been saying. It just comes down to how much of a factor is it.

 

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1 hour ago, bbulldog152 said:

Question, so earlier we have the stats with the amount of qualifiers in each class compared to enrollment. My question is with these states that have classed wrestling does their numbers add up? I assume for example in Ohio the qualifiers are split 3 ways between small, medium, and big. I also assume the combined enrollment of the small school does not equal 33.3%  My point is Ohio is a very competive state and it doesn't seem to hold them back they are classed. I know their D1 Programs(big School) are the top programs but their D2 programs have success at a national level as well. Maybe not as much with D3 but I know their D3 have success at some level in college.

Most states were classed in the 1970's and 1980's so the data is not exactly easily found.

 

I did put this together...probably close to 10 years ago now with some of the dates that I found when states classed.

http://indianamat.com/stuff/statebreakdown.html

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1 hour ago, Coach Brobst said:

Absolutely not stating that all small schools have poor coaching, don't get it twisted here. What I'm saying is that on average, the coaching received at a larger school is more solid and there's several reasons for this, namely the difference in pay between the large schools and small schools. I can tell you there are several coaches that have left smaller schools for larger because of opportunity to put kids into the state finals on a more regular basis (an issue that would be resolved with class wrestling), just as another reason. Put up a poll and see why coaches move from smaller schools to larger. I think it'd be interesting to see the reasons given.

 

One obvious reason that hasn't been touched on is the fact that there aren't as many teaching jobs in small schools, so if they can get a great coach in place, he's often not able to be in the building to teach all day. This makes a big difference in the ability to recruit and retain wrestlers. And the larger the school, the more potential openings to get more coaches in the building and have more coaches period. I've been doing this for a decade and believe it or not, not every athlete I've coached has liked me or my style of coaching or wrestling. But I work hard to hire assistants who will stay in the same philosophy but have different strengths and expertise that allow us to be a well rounded staff. This catches many of the athletes that may not jive super well with me, but they really like being coached by one of my assistants. This opportunity is often lost at a small school where there is only one assistant stipend, if that. The ability to recruit and retain assistants is a HUGE difference between the different sized schools, eliminating even MORE of their potential athlete pool.

 

I'm not trying to knock the coaching at small schools, I've known many awesome coaches at smaller schools that are still there. It's a labor of love for them and they are killing it in their own right. When they find their group of committed individuals they do great things and are just as successful, I'm just pointing out that it's a lot harder to get and keep a great coach at a small school with a limited budget. Of course it happens, but far more often it doesn't happen. I feel as though you point out the successes of a Mater Dei, Oak Hill, or Wabash, but neglect that there are dozens of 1A and 2A schools like Taylor Kokomo or South Vermillion that haven't had an individual qualify for state in years (Y2 just posted a bunch of this data, but I don't have time to review it all) and this year didn't even get a Regional Qualifier. I know the data suggests that 1A schools are qualifying the right numbers of individuals, but they're all from the same schools that have been able to buck the overall trends. That doesn't make it equal for all individuals.

 

With regards to weight training, most small schools don't have a strength coach on staff so they're at the mercy of their own coach's expertise or the internet research they can do(which will be extremely variant from place to place). Is it a huge difference? Perhaps not, but these things all add up. Even if the kids from school A are only getting a 10% boost from their weights coach and a 10% boost from their practice partners, that's a 20% advantage (assuming they have equal coaching). 

 

I agree the crux is whether or not each INDIVIDUAL is on a level playing field, and I'm arguing they're not. A kid that grows up at Small school A with a coach that is part time because he owns his own landscaping company and can't afford to take off to help during the offseason and there is no local club and they have to drive farther for tournaments and they have to pay for hotels to stay there and compete and drive to a larger city to train just so they can  have a practice partner that's able to push them is NOT on an equal playing field to a kid who grows up at Large School B where the coach is engaging athletes year round, they start wrestling in a club learning the system at the age of 4-8 and can train locally with quality practice partners whenever they please.

 

Can these odds be overcome? Most definitely! But they are not on an equal playing field to start. It takes MORE sacrifice to succeed in our sport when you grow up in a small school system and that is by definition, not equal.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying these guys from large schools aren't working hard or sacrificing, they are and you don't succeed without it in our sport. However, there are inherent advantages to growing up in Avon/Brownsburg, Evansville, etc; compared to growing up in Fairmount,Salem, Bloomfield etc; that make the sacrifices slightly less (fewer hotel costs, a quality local club, more academy options nearby, etc;). 

 

I don't think anyone is saying that school size is the only factor here, it's definitely not, and I'd argue not even the biggest factor, but it's what everyone is used to using to classify schools, so there's the argument.

I thought I would join the debate since they are so fun!

 

I think everything you have stated is true.  I think small schools are at a disadvantage I think larger schools have many things that benefit them over a small school.  But, I think it is sooooo special when a kid from our size school makes it!  What does it mean to go to state at Warren Central, Avon, Carmel ect.... not much, there have been several go!  When a Courtney Duncan, or Luke Blanton go to State and even win a State title (even at 103) ;) They are larger than life super stars.  Our kids know every State Qualifier we've had.  It is a huge deal.  I believe Frankton has a shrine of Courtney in their Halls!  It is celebrated.  If we make it class all that goes away.  We all love the underdog.  People go nuts when Cathedral or Crown Point or Mater Dei is upset.  Thats what is fun in my opinion.  If you made class those  things don't happen and it's not as celebrated.  I embrace the uphill battle we have and want my kids to do it as well.  They will be competing for a job soon, they won't be given out by class.  You better go earn it.  I want my wrestlers to go out and do something special that is remembered forever.  Finding the right head coach will be hard and getting good assistants is also a challenge but we are figuring out a way to do it.  It's hard work but anything worth having always is.  I know we are on different sides of the aisle on this but it is always nice to hear your thoughts on the matter.  I truly enjoy reading and hearing the "other" sides opinions.

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Possible compromise to get best of both worlds: The Grand State Compromise method

Back in my home state of Kansas,  a well known "drink the class wrestling cool aid state", actually once upon a time came up with a method to have a one class champion like Indiana and have individual class champions.  It was like having your cake and eating it to. 

They did it as follows:

1.They had their normal state championship with 4 divisions  (6A, 5A, 4A, 321A) and took two weeks to wrestle.  They placed 4 places in each division.  Each class had its champions and placers, so business like normal.  Yes, they had wrestle backs.

 

2. In week 3, the 16 state placers from all four divisions were invited to a "Grand State".    The format was the 4th placer finisher drew a 1st place finisher from another division.  I think the divisions were randomly drawn  Like the 6a state champ would wrestle the 1-2-3A 4th place finisher.  (It was 4 vs 1 and 2 vs 3).   When tournament was done, you had your Kansas state champion (unclassed).

 

I believe they did it in 1976 and 1977.  It was quite popular, but the reason it failed was it was the coaches  felt it was too much time and money to  put another week in the season and the additional travel costs to travel to a central location.   

 

Indiana could do this and get it done in the same four week schedule they currently have.  I know a knew paradigm.

I know people would say it fair proportionally  to have 4 wrestlers from the big class and 4 from the small class. Maybe a compromise would be top 5 go from the big class and top 3 from the small class.

 

The Scholar is submitting ideas as solutions, not complaints.

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Galagore said:

 

This is a really good point, but what alternative have we? If that is the logic of the advantage/disadvantage, then why do we class team state by school size? Shouldn't the money logic apply to the team as much as the individual?

 

I am not 100% sure why the powers that be decided to class the team state.  I do have to admit, I enjoy the atmosphere of the event and the event itself.

 

I do think that the IHSAA is inconsistent with why they class sports.. By having a Success Factor the IHSAA is saying it is not necessarily about school size, but school size is a good starting point.  If it was truly about size then the IHSAA would not force schools to bump up just because they are having success against schools their own size.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

You'll get no argument from me that it is a locality issue more than a school size issue, but there are still sheer numbers, attraction of staff, and budgets on the side of the larger school. Unfortunately, classing based off of your "opportunity" is not really an option. And just like you are not as against classing as your posts may seem, I like one class just fine, but I still see the disadvantages of the small school and what they have to overcome to be as good.

 

6 minutes ago, Raven27 said:

I thought I would join the debate since they are so fun!

 

I think everything you have stated is true.  I think small schools are at a disadvantage I think larger schools have many things that benefit them over a small school.  But, I think it is sooooo special when a kid from our size school makes it!  What does it mean to go to state at Warren Central, Avon, Carmel ect.... not much, there have been several go!  When a Courtney Duncan, or Luke Blanton go to State and even win a State title (even at 103) ;) They are larger than life super stars.  Our kids know every State Qualifier we've had.  It is a huge deal.  I believe Frankton has a shrine of Courtney in their Halls!  It is celebrated.  If we make it class all that goes away.  We all love the underdog.  People go nuts when Cathedral or Crown Point or Mater Dei is upset.  Thats what is fun in my opinion.  If you made class those  things don't happen and it's not as celebrated.  I embrace the uphill battle we have and want my kids to do it as well.  They will be competing for a job soon, they won't be given out by class.  You better go earn it.  I want my wrestlers to go out and do something special that is remembered forever.  Finding the right head coach will be hard and getting good assistants is also a challenge but we are figuring out a way to do it.  It's hard work but anything worth having always is.  I know we are on different sides of the aisle on this but it is always nice to hear your thoughts on the matter.  I truly enjoy reading and hearing the "other" sides opinions.

 

I appreciate hearing the other side as well and the sentiment you have brought forth is the common one here in Indiana, which is why I know classing will never happen here. It is great to see kids from small schools succeed despite the odds and upsets are fun. Nobody would say the tournament in Indiana isn't fun, I just wonder if it's what is best for the sport's health. For every coach up to the challenge like you, Courtney, and Coach King at Oak Hill, there's 2-3 coaches struggling to put together a full roster of bodies, let alone Regional/Semi-State level wrestlers. 

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I don't know the reason that the IHSAA dropped the Team State portion of our tournament, but I have a solution scenario to offer that would preserve our one champ per weight class individual format while at the same time allow for (2) team champions to be crowned based on school size. Not sure how easy/difficult the logistics would be but here is my idea.

 

Basically do it the way it was before with one big exception. Start at 32 Sectional sites with 2 feeding each individual regional site. But instead of one class, have (16) 1A Sectional sites & (16) 2A Sectional sites. Each Individual Regional would have a 1A & a 2A Sectional that feeds it. But each Team Regional would pit (2) 1A or (2) 2A Sectional team winners. From here we would have an individual tournament that is 1 class & a team tournament that is 2 classes.

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19 hours ago, Coach Brobst said:

You'll get no argument from me that it is a locality issue more than a school size issue, but there are still sheer numbers, attraction of staff, and budgets on the side of the larger school. Unfortunately, classing based off of your "opportunity" is not really an option. And just like you are not as against classing as your posts may seem, I like one class just fine, but I still see the disadvantages of the small school and what they have to overcome to be as good.

 

 

I appreciate hearing the other side as well and the sentiment you have brought forth is the common one here in Indiana, which is why I know classing will never happen here. It is great to see kids from small schools succeed despite the odds and upsets are fun. Nobody would say the tournament in Indiana isn't fun, I just wonder if it's what is best for the sport's health. For every coach up to the challenge like you, Courtney, and Coach King at Oak Hill, there's 2-3 coaches struggling to put together a full roster of bodies, let alone Regional/Semi-State level wrestlers. 

That's why we need small town athletes staying in small towns to coach. ;) 

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1 hour ago, Raven27 said:

That's why we need small town athletes staying in small towns to coach. ;) 

Hope about giving the small town coaches a chance to win a championship and having there wrestlers a chance to win a championship.  That might keep them around..

 

 

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1 hour ago, Raven27 said:

That's why we need small town athletes staying in small towns to coach. ;) 

That would help and Scholars idea of giving a chance to win titles might incentive some for sure. But I can tell you as one of those small town boys that is now coaching at a large school that making a living is priority number one for most of us (Coaching is my passion, but doesn't pay the bills) and if you're a teacher there is a GREAT disparity between what I would make at a school such as my hometown school compared to here at HSE. A quick google search for what teacher contracts are at some smaller schools compared to pay scales at larger schools will show you why many leave. Obviously, if they don't teach, it won't make a difference, but having someone in the building to help with recruitment and retention is extremely helpful. 

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It would be interesting to know how many schools in general have lay coaches. Not many kids are going the education route for their future. Let alone giving back to the sport bye coaching. Look at all the former studs they all go to schools that are already successful. So that leaves us old guys to try and manage our own family plus work outside of the school to keep a school from dropping a struggling program with 10-15 kids on a good year.

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1 hour ago, Coach Brobst said:

That would help and Scholars idea of giving a chance to win titles might incentive some for sure. But I can tell you as one of those small town boys that is now coaching at a large school that making a living is priority number one for most of us (Coaching is my passion, but doesn't pay the bills) and if you're a teacher there is a GREAT disparity between what I would make at a school such as my hometown school compared to here at HSE. A quick google search for what teacher contracts are at some smaller schools compared to pay scales at larger schools will show you why many leave. Obviously, if they don't teach, it won't make a difference, but having someone in the building to help with recruitment and retention is extremely helpful. 

No I get it.  It is really hard to coach when you're not in the building for sure.  I was just giving you a hard time.  It would be hard to turn down an opportunity to be at a big school for many reasons.  

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