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I read here a couple weeks back an official saying that the 2nd ref will only overturn a call if they are 100% sure the other ref got it wrong.

 

In the semi finals match at 170, Tyler Wagner had Fielden reversed with Fielden simultaneously going to his back at the very end of the 3rd period. Ref called 2 reversal, and the other ref overturned saying it was only loss of control. 
 

Even if those situations more often end up getting called as loss of control rather than reversal, how can the 2nd ref be 100% sure it was loss of control and not a reversal? 

Edited by graham
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10 hours ago, graham said:

I read here a couple weeks back an official saying that the 2nd ref will only overturn a call if they are 100% sure the other ref got it wrong.

 

In the semi finals match at 170, Tyler Wagner had Fielden reversed with Fielden simultaneously going to his back at the very end of the 3rd period. Ref called 2 reversal, and the other ref overturned saying it was only loss of control. 
 

Even if those situations more often end up getting called as loss of control rather than reversal, how can the 2nd ref be 100% sure it was loss of control and not a reversal? 


I didn’t see the match, so I can’t comment on the specifics of the situation, but I can point you to the rule book to clarify your confusion about how the referee and assistant referee can impact a changed call.

 

Rule 3-2 explains the role of the assistant in helping to “minimize human error in matters of rule application and judgment.”

 

3-2-2:

 

The assistant referee will be granted the same mobility as the referee and will complement and assist the referee in making calls. The referee will be in complete control of the match.

 

3-2-2 f and e

 

f. When necessary, the referee and assistant shall meet briefly on the edge of the mat away from the wrestlers and coaches, away from the wrestlers and coaches, away from the scorer’s table to discuss the point of disagreement;

 

e. The assistant may support, disagree or have no opinion relative to a decision. The referee shall prevail in the event of disagreement;

 

So, based on the rules, it’s always the referee’s call on whether or not to make a change. The assistant doesn’t have the ability to change a call. Their opinion may influence the referee to change the call, but that falls on the referee.
 

Normally you see a change if the referee knows they may have been out of position, or in a situation like what you described, may not have had a clear idea when in the process of the move time expired. If it was a bang-bang call, the ref may have been iffy on the timing (maybe not 100% confident in his own call to begin with) and his assistant might have had a better view of the clock. Obviously just speculating as to why the change was determined.

 

Edited by runner-up
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I watched the 170 match in slow motion and personally I don’t even think it was an escape.  Clock hit zero and Wagner didn’t have his hips even turned into Fielden. At that point Fielden could have still scooted his hips and not given up the reversal.

F169BB5C-5401-43C6-B25B-37D91923A990.jpeg
 

With that said it was a great match and both are awesome wrestlers.

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I went back and watched it and saw it was very close.  
 

Of course, there is bias here on my part but I don’t think Fielden is scooting outta that.  
 

Like you said, awesome match, great wrestlers either way. 

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Graham Calhoun was robbed. I’m not afraid to say it. My fellow zebras missed that one. Maybe instant replay for these levels of competition would be in order. 
Bates has a questionable win as well. Same mat. 

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On 2/22/2020 at 12:29 PM, graham said:

I read here a couple weeks back an official saying that the 2nd ref will only overturn a call if they are 100% sure the other ref got it wrong.

 

 

I'm not sure if you are referring to one of my posts or not, but I did post something similar a week or two ago.

 

But what I said was that the only time an official should change a call is when he is unsure & his partner (the 2nd ref) is 100% sure. That post was in response to someone else saying he only changes a call when he is unsure & his partner is at least 80% sure.

 

But runner-up stated it correctly when he said the the 2nd official cannot change a call, only the lead official can do that. The second official can only offer his opinion to the lead official.

 

So any calls that were changed this weekend were done so by the lead official. It may have been because of the influence of the 2nd official but ultimately the lead official makes the call either way.

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11 hours ago, The Zebra said:

Graham Calhoun was robbed. I’m not afraid to say it. My fellow zebras missed that one. Maybe instant replay for these levels of competition would be in order. 
Bates has a questionable win as well. Same mat. 

If you're referring to the Calhoun late takedown, NO TAKEDOWN. I am not in favor of any wrestler at all, just stating my opinion. A lot can happen in this situation, and there is no evidence of enough control to award the TD.

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4 hours ago, SIACfan said:

 

I'm not sure if you are referring to one of my posts or not, but I did post something similar a week or two ago.

 

But what I said was that the only time an official should change a call is when he is unsure & his partner (the 2nd ref) is 100% sure. That post was in response to someone else saying he only changes a call when he is unsure & his partner is at least 80% sure.

 

But runner-up stated it correctly when he said the the 2nd official cannot change a call, only the lead official can do that. The second official can only offer his opinion to the lead official.

 

So any calls that were changed this weekend were done so by the lead official. It may have been because of the influence of the 2nd official but ultimately the lead official makes the call either way.


 

Yes that was the post.  Initially I took it as though this is the protocol officials go by. Should have taken more time reading it. 
 

Seems like there should be a consistent protocol in these situations. In the NFL, they can’t overturn a call unless it can be confirmed in video review that the first call was wrong. 
 

I think if it were like that in HS wrestling, this situation would have been one of those “the call on the mat stands”.  Meaning, they couldn’t confirm it was wrong. 
 

I understand the second ref can’t overturn the call, but either way it was changed based on the 2nd refs input, obviously. 

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On 2/22/2020 at 2:34 PM, GrecoISU said:

I went back and watched it. Clock had hit zero.

I watched it too. At 1 second he gets it, and the announcer even calls it, as well as, disagrees with the call made. Please watch the archived video please. 

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12 minutes ago, The Zebra said:

I watched it too. At 1 second he gets it, and the announcer even calls it, as well as, disagrees with the call made. Please watch the archived video please. 

Not saying you are right or wrong with the call, but the announcers are likely not your best source of verification.  A none bias announcer usually are looking for the most exciting outcome on a last second call.  So a close flurry/score at the end will almost always have the announcer pulling for the score, because it’s the more exciting outcome. 

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I think what is missing is that simple word consistency. I don’t want to sound like I’m bashing officials cause I’m not. I in no way want to diminish what Me Deters did. He deserved to win the state championship. My complaint is when the referee awarded 2 then it was over turned (which I would have protested as well) the ref just went on other refs call. Why wasn’t the time keeper at the table asked.....same in Fieldon and Wagners other 170 semi final match. I’ve had many 5 or 6)  say it was 2 but time was up. I asked another ref there and he didn’t think it was 2. My question is the ref in charge on the mat unless obviously wasn’t sure should at least check with other official and table. By the way....if Indiana really wants to get and keep greatvrefs we better get away from this rotating 5 or how ever many years it is to ref at our biggest tournament of the year. I’m not a fan of participation trophies. If a ref is good enough to be b

voted in 10 years 8n a row.....kudos to him. (Like saying a wrestler can go to state his senior year only). If a ref is a rookie but does a great job he should get voted in. We’re always going to struggle getting the numbers of officials but more importantly the quality of officials I believe with our system. We have a lot of good refs and need more coming in. I’m just not real sure your going to get people real excited to stay long term with the system we’re using. 

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Kind of want to watch it.  I think the video in the Link by AOberlin doesn't open.  Its a picture.   Are you having success opening it? 

 

On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2020 at 8:36 PM, The Zebra said:

I watched it too. At 1 second he gets it, and the announcer even calls it, as well as, disagrees with the call made. Please watch the archived video please. 

 

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1 hour ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Kind of want to watch it.  I think the video in the Link by AOberlin doesn't open.  Its a picture.   Are you having success opening it? 

 

 


 

i think he screen shotted at 0:00 time on the clock. 
 

It’s on track. Free to gold members. 

Edited by graham
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