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Alternative to "Wrestlebacks" at SemiState


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I'm pretty sure I've posted this idea on here before, but here it is again...

 

Let's start with some IHSAA philosophies, since they are the ones ultimately making the decision.  Bobby Cox and company don't like "wrestlebacks" so this is something different.  They are used to the one-and-done postseasons of football and basketball and have asked the wrestling coaches how many times someone should be allowed to lose and still move on.  Our answer should be 2 - double elimination.  The IHSAA views all 4 weeks as one big tournament.  So, make the whole thing as close to double elimination as possible, like every other wrestling tournament in the world.  That means we should guarantee that someone has lost twice in the tournament series or lost once to someone who has already lost twice (i.e., 4 over 1).  Right now, there are 2 times when this does not happen.  One is the pigtail round of Sectionals, which should be fixed by not pairing unseeded wrestlers against the top seeds.  The only other spot that happens is the ticket round of Semi State, where an undefeated postseason wrestler can lose to someone with 1 postseason loss.  That's what this solution will fix.  The IHSAA also doesn't believe in upsets.  They believe whoever wins must be the better wrestler.  We cannot use any upsets as examples, because in their minds upsets do not happen.  But if we can show them the fundamental flaw in their system that can be easily fixed with minimal effort, it has a much better chance of passing.  And finally, the IHSAA likes to make more money and loves it's own ideas.  This fix appeals to both of those philosophies, as well.

 

And now for the idea...

Qualify the top 5 out of each Semi State.  Several years ago, the IHSAA had one year when they added matches to 5th place, but it was only for team score purposes.  We bring back the IHSAA's own idea, so the ticket round losers pair up at the same time as the semifinals, and those winners wrestle for 5th at the same time as the 1st and 3rd place matches (like they do on Saturday of State).  If your SemiState ran the semis on 2 mats, then this would take no extra time.  If your SemiState ran the semis on 4 mats, then this would add about 45 minutes to the tournament.  This year, New Castle was done around 6pm with 10 minute breaks between rounds and a 30+ minute lunch break.

 

State will then have 20 per weight class, which will be more fans/money for the IHSAA without watering down the state tournament.  Pair up the 4's versus 5's for an opening round on Friday night before the usual first round.  Banker's Life can easily hold 6 mats to actually make Friday night go quicker.  Details about the 20-man state bracket can be worked out later, but there would definitely be some exciting 4v5 and 5v1 matches on Friday night.

 

Again, these would not be "wrestlebacks" - they are 5th place matches.  They are not meant to give kids who lost (or got upset or had a bad match) an extra chance.  This just fixes a systemic flaw in the "double elimination" of the tournament series overall.  If the Coaches' Association proposes it like this, it would have a better chance of being approved by the IHSAA.

 

A couple of additional benefits to this would be having a true alternate (6th place finisher) and more accurate team scores.

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I didn't even read your old post on this and I was putting this exact scenario on paper earlier this year. I just never fully finished my thoughts on how it would work. This would solve many problems and I would love to see it. 

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Also when I was doing the research a while back.  I believe that we had the lowest amount of State Qualifiers for the amount of wrestlers compared to almost all other States. And making it 20 we would still be one of the lowest. So the watered down argument wouldn't fly.

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I also like that this keeps the excitement of the ticket round as it has been.  Win and you're in, lose and the best you can do is draw into a semi state champ Friday night.  But it adds another exciting 5th place match to qualify at each weight class and makes that 3rd place match even more important to earn a first round bye on Friday night.

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This may be a recycled idea....so forgive me if already presented in the past.  But what about seeding Regional placements to ensure no ridiculous match-ups take place.  Using a separation criteria of sorts, without changing the actual placement match-ups based on Regional results.

I would think one of our rankings guys, or someone knowledgeable and unbiased....could assist the IHSAA with this type of dynamic for Semi-State & State. This could at least help prevent certain matchups (won’t stop entirely of course), also appease the purists who don’t want change, as well as  create a much more tactful solution towards the IHSAA without them having to stress over revenue variables. Which in my opinion....is the biggest reason things continue as is currently. 

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The IHSAA will never buy into this because they would still have 16 alive on Saturday morning. This scenario would still have 8 guys alive at noon on Saturday. They will never agree to starting earlier on Friday and they will not eliminate the time schedule they use on Saturday. Too many establishments in Indianapolis make a lot of money during those breaks. Not trying to be a negative Nate, I've just been in the IHSAA Conference Room too many times to ever think the powers that be will ever make a decision that produces a better, fairly balanced tourney.

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Maybe I didn't explain it enough.  Saturday of State would be exactly the same.  Friday would have a short round of 4v5 and then the normal Friday night round, leaving the usual 8 left per weight class.  If they put 6 mats down for Friday night, they wouldn't need to start any earlier and could still finish around 10pm.

 

Edit:

Currently there are 112 matches on Friday night on 4 mats = 28 matches/mat

New would be 168 matches on Friday night on 6 mats = 28 matches/mat

Friday night of state would take the exact same amount of time to get through the 2 rounds.

Edited by GrecoCoach
Added mat calculations
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15 minutes ago, Coach Wadkins said:

The IHSAA will never buy into this because they would still have 16 alive on Saturday morning. This scenario would still have 8 guys alive at noon on Saturday. They will never agree to starting earlier on Friday and they will not eliminate the time schedule they use on Saturday. Too many establishments in Indianapolis make a lot of money during those breaks. Not trying to be a negative Nate, I've just been in the IHSAA Conference Room too many times to ever think the powers that be will ever make a decision that produces a better, fairly balanced tourney.

So you're saying one of the reasons we don't have wrestlebacks and we shorten the time our best wrestlers have on the mat at state is because the IHSAA wants the spectators to spend more time at breakfast at Steak and Shake and to spend more time for the afternoon break at Dicks Last Resort and PF Changs?  

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Absolutely...most of the Indianapolis merchants are also Central Indiana citizens who pay taxes that help build those sports venues in Indy. The venues are going to make their money while the action is going on. The rest of Indy gets their cut during the "down" time when we are walking the streets, during the break and on Friday night after BLF empties out. Don't get me wrong, I would love a full two day tourney with complete wrestlebacks, but the reality is that it will never happen unless a wrestling person becomes the IHSAA Commissioner some day.

 

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4 minutes ago, Coach Wadkins said:

..., but the reality is that it will never happen unless a wrestling person becomes the IHSAA Commissioner some day.

 

 

Then maybe we can combine this idea from GrecoCoach with  UncleJimmy’s suggestion on the “Unpopular Opinion ... Pairings Show” thread ...

 

... by electing Mr. Goebel as IHSAA commissioner.  How do we get his name on the ballot?

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Having an IHSAA commissioner that understands wrestling would be very helpful.  A lot of the rules/bylaws need to be able to apply to all sports, though.  But it is irritating how old school / outdated / ancient some of the rules in Indiana are compared to the rest of the country.

 

Until we can get a wrestler on the inside, we need to play by their rules and propose changes that have a chance to pass.  And maybe lead to something better in the future.  I think getting 5th place matches back for qualification could be a stepping stone to full wrestlebacks at Semi State.

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9 hours ago, GrecoCoach said:

Having an IHSAA commissioner that understands wrestling would be very helpful.  A lot of the rules/bylaws need to be able to apply to all sports, though.  But it is irritating how old school / outdated / ancient some of the rules in Indiana are compared to the rest of the country.

 

Until we can get a wrestler on the inside, we need to play by their rules and propose changes that have a chance to pass.  And maybe lead to something better in the future.  I think getting 5th place matches back for qualification could be a stepping stone to full wrestlebacks at Semi State.

More importantly is having a strong coaches association and coaches that don't try to cheat the system. There is no better way to hurt the sport than by doing things like changing alpha weights.

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13 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

More importantly is having a strong coaches association and coaches that don't try to cheat the system. There is no better way to hurt the sport than by doing things like changing alpha weights.

Basketball coaches recruit, swimming coaches change times for state cuts, etc.  There are some unethical coaches in every sport that try to cheat the system.  Those coaches should be punished individually.  It's very petty for the IHSAA to punish the entire sport because of a few coaches.  And I'm guessing that violates at least one of their bylaws.

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8 minutes ago, GrecoCoach said:

Basketball coaches recruit, swimming coaches change times for state cuts, etc.  There are some unethical coaches in every sport that try to cheat the system.  Those coaches should be punished individually.  It's very petty for the IHSAA to punish the entire sport because of a few coaches.  And I'm guessing that violates at least one of their bylaws.

Why do football coaches seem to get "what they want?" Wrestling probably makes just as much money for the IHSAA. 

 

We need to look at ourselves first before we start blaming others. Recruiting is bad, changing times in swimming is bad, but changing alpha weights and other weight loss plan shenanigans are detrimental to an athlete's health. It's akin to making a kid participate with a concussion. 

 

The coaches are a part of the problem as to why we can't even get simple things passed like scoring at the state finals. Faulkens understands wrestling enough to know what is good for the sport and what is bad. Wrestling isn't that hard to figure out, but when he has to field 100's of calls sectional week because of weight management issues it wears on him and the staff. 

 

By no means is either organization perfect, but we need to first look at ourselves and see how we can help the situation. You can't blame the ref for calling you pinned if you put yourself to your back. 

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16 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

More importantly is having a strong coaches association and coaches that don't try to cheat the system. There is no better way to hurt the sport than by doing things like changing alpha weights.

Lame reasoning. Because the coaches make you angry every year has nothing to do with what is right for the kids and for the sport in general. They are 2 mutually exclusive things that as a manager or the head of an organization you should be able to separate. 

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1 minute ago, aoberlin said:

Lame reasoning. Because the coaches make you angry every year has nothing to do with what is right for the kids and for the sport in general. They are 2 mutually exclusive things that as a manager or the head of organization you should be able to separate. 

If you are a teacher/coach/manager, who are you more likely to give a break to?

1. The kid that is always on time, working hard, always follows the rules
2. The kid that routinely pushes the line or even breaks small rules

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1 minute ago, Y2CJ41 said:

If you are a teacher/coach/manager, who are you more likely to give a break to?

1. The kid that is always on time, working hard, always follows the rules
2. The kid that routinely pushes the line or even breaks small rules

Not looking for a break. Looking for things to be done right isn't a break. It just what is right.

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2 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

 

 

The coaches are a part of the problem as to why we can't even get simple things passed like scoring at the state finals. Faulkens understands wrestling enough to know what is good for the sport and what is bad. Wrestling isn't that hard to figure out, but when he has to field 100's of calls sectional week because of weight management issues it wears on him and the staff. 

 

 

Im not as close to as you are,  but is there really 100s of call  during sectional week for alpha weights? I didn't know that.

Are these calls from coaches trying to clarify or correct last minute issues due to misunderstanding of rules or are they other coaches calling  to say that other school's Alpha weights aren't right and they look like they're cheating?

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27 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Im not as close to as you are,  but is there really 100s of call  during sectional week for alpha weights? I didn't know that.

Are these calls from coaches trying to clarify or correct last minute issues due to misunderstanding of rules or are they other coaches calling  to say that other school's Alpha weights aren't right and they look like they're cheating?

I just know that we have had to call Faulkens many times during my time at Carroll. 

 

They are calls getting clarifications or "waivers" and everything else about sectional items. I even know that he gets emails that pertain to seeding questions, so it's a whole gamut of questions. 

 

I promise you he isn't getting questions on whether Billy Smith can play quarterback the week of sectional or if Jimmy Jones has enough carries to play running back. 

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44 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

If you are a teacher/coach/manager, who are you more likely to give a break to?

1. The kid that is always on time, working hard, always follows the rules
2. The kid that routinely pushes the line or even breaks small rules

Based on last year, large schools that get caught blatantly violating the rules are the ones that get breaks.

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43 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

I just know that we have had to call Faulkens many times during my time at Carroll. 

 

They are calls getting clarifications or "waivers" and everything else about sectional items. I even know that he gets emails that pertain to seeding questions, so it's a whole gamut of questions. 

 

I promise you he isn't getting questions on whether Billy Smith can play quarterback the week of sectional or if Jimmy Jones has enough carries to play running back. 

 

 

This may be true, but many of the phone calls are asking for clarification about unclear rules and guidelines that Faulkens has created himself.  He tells one sectional to do one thing, which is not what the rules say, and he allows waivers, etc... It seems many of these issues are caused by Faulkens...

 

 

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30 minutes ago, AJ said:

 

 

This may be true, but many of the phone calls are asking for clarification about unclear rules and guidelines that Faulkens has created himself.  He tells one sectional to do one thing, which is not what the rules say, and he allows waivers, etc... It seems many of these issues are caused by Faulkens...

 

 

To be fair, there wasn't that many calls to Faulkens about suitable undergarmentsB)

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