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My first Indiana Post-Season Experience


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1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Watering down is watering down, we have people very adamant that they wouldn't even show up for the state finals if there were more competitors. We like our TOUGH state finals and probably should allow less wrestlers so that it shows how tough we are. We ain't snowflakes in Indiana with class wrestling or added qualifiers. 

You forgot  to add wrestlebacks.   Nothing more snowflaky than wrestlebacks.

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I currently live in Indiana but lived most of my life in Ohio.  I wrestled in Ohio and attended the state wrestling tournament there for 20 consecutive years.  This year, I attended the IHSAA post sea

States with wrestle Backs at State Tournament AL, AK, AZ, AR, CA, CO, CT, DE, FL, GA, HI, ID, IL, IA, KS, KY, LA, ME, MA,MD, MI, MN, MO, MT, NE, NV, NH, NJ, NM,NY, NC, ND OH, OK, OR,  PA, RI

Steve,. I moved her about 12 years ago.  I lived 4 years in Ohio and my older son wrestled in Ohio out of the Sandusky area.  I attended a few State tournaments at OSU.  Really fun time and great envi

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Indiana wrestling is awesome and always a top 7 state in the nation. With our few travel rules and training rules we will never be in the top 3 elite states. But HELL top 7 year after year is always good. Ticket round matches are AWESOME and my favorite are FRIDAY NIGHT DEATH MATCHES :)

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5 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Watering down is watering down, we have people very adamant that they wouldn't even show up for the state finals if there were more competitors. We like our TOUGH state finals and probably should allow less wrestlers so that it shows how tough we are. We ain't snowflakes in Indiana with class wrestling or added qualifiers. 

 

I think it's like bourbon. A little water helps bring out the best in the bourbon. Too much water ruins it. And adding Coke at all is a deal breaker.

 

So clearly Coke is to class wrestling for our individual tournament as bourbon is to our current format. Our current format may just need a little water (more state qualifiers and wrestlebacks at semi-state). But please don't add Coke.

 

Amiright?

Edited by Silence Dogood
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Similar camp as Steve is in - originally from PA, coached in Ohio for a few years before jumping across the border to IN...no wrestle backs at the Semi-State level will never make sense to me.  No doubt some kids will always be on the short end of the blood round .. so let's take that off the table..

 

What's more surprising is the basic economic benefits of wrestle backs and a two-day tournament and how that could be unappealing to ANYONE in a governing body.

 

Basic (and likely not 100% accurate) mathematics.

Let's say 5,000 people were at New Castle last Saturday, paying $12 a person = $60,000

 

Run the first and second round on Friday night and charge $10 = $50,000

Cut the total population in half for Saturday placing matches @ $10 = $25,000

Bringing total revenues in at $75,000 ... a 22% positive change in revenue ... 

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10 minutes ago, Bstark said:

Similar camp as Steve is in - originally from PA, coached in Ohio for a few years before jumping across the border to IN...no wrestle backs at the Semi-State level will never make sense to me.  No doubt some kids will always be on the short end of the blood round .. so let's take that off the table..

 

What's more surprising is the basic economic benefits of wrestle backs and a two-day tournament and how that could be unappealing to ANYONE in a governing body.

 

Basic (and likely not 100% accurate) mathematics.

Let's say 5,000 people were at New Castle last Saturday, paying $12 a person = $60,000

 

Run the first and second round on Friday night and charge $10 = $50,000

Cut the total population in half for Saturday placing matches @ $10 = $25,000

Bringing total revenues in at $75,000 ... a 22% positive change in revenue ... 

That brings a really good point.  Assuming estimates are correct, multiply that by 4 semi states.  That's $60K IHSAA loses, but  offset by some minimal partial expenses like additional referee pay.

 

The said point is like at the state wrestling tournament,  say the IHSAA had an additional session on Friday afternoon so wrestle backs get in.    Say its $5 per person they could charge more multiply by 20,000 (rough estimate of attendance).   That's  $100K IHSAA is leaving on the table. Does the IHSAA get a percentage of concessions,  that might be  more money on the table.

 

Edited by Wrestling Scholar
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2 hours ago, Jack Jones said:

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying. But isn't this how the NCAA championships are determined? Individual points = team champion? 


Cox said the reason there are no wrestle-backs is because the whole point is to determine who the best is.  Well... why do they place 8 then?  
 

And I am saying that if the best 8 wrestlers from each weight class aren’t at state, then the team champion, which is supposed to indicate who the best team is, isn’t accurate. 
 

I agree, it has worked the last two years, but... 

 

I still think there should be wrestle-backs. 😁

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54 minutes ago, Galagore said:

Many of these wrestle-back arguments (team champion argument a notable exception) are also solid arguments in favor of class wrestling.


 

I don’t see that.  Knowing who the best is is what this my argument is all about.  1st-8th.  Class wrestling would muddy it all up.

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5 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

That brings a really good point.  Assuming estimates are correct, multiply that by 4 semi states.  That's $60K IHSAA loses, but  offset by some minimal partial expenses like additional referee pay.

 

The said point is like at the state wrestling tournament,  say the IHSAA had an additional session on Friday afternoon so wrestle backs get in.    Say its $5 per person they could charge more multiply by 20,000 (rough estimate of attendance).   That's  $100K IHSAA is leaving on the table. Does the IHSAA get a percentage of concessions,  that might be  more money on the table.

 

This one works for class

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20 hours ago, Sutton047 said:

The following scenario will never ever happen, but go with me here haha. I propose the ticket round move to the first round of semi state then after that wrestle backs to 3rd, but take the top 6 from each SS expanding the state tourney to 32 at each weight. The 5s & 6s from each weight have to wrestle twice on Friday night to advance. So the 5s & 6s from each weight feed into the 4-4s then the winners of that move into face the 1s. Then proceed with Saturday morning the 1v4/5/6 matches with the losers going home, get rid of the multi hour break between the consoles and the finals and have the kids who in Saturday morning wrestle 3 more matches throughout the rest of Saturday.

More wrestlers to state = another argument that works for class wrestling 

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I actual think having one class bodes more for the overall point of having wrestlebacks.  It is tougher to make it to state as is with having all the kids from all the schools in the same class.  They also do not need to add more qualifiers, keep it at 4.  Adding wrestlebacks at the semi state would make the State Tournament more competitive IMO. 

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I would also like to see 6-minute Consolation matches at every stage of the tournament. It's so important to win that 3rd/4th place match in order to set yourself up for potential success the following week (ie. avoiding that 4 vs 1 matchup). Too many of those matches have a scoreless 1-minute 1st period. 

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6 minutes ago, slice60 said:

I would also like to see 6-minute Consolation matches at every stage of the tournament. It's so important to win that 3rd/4th place match in order to set yourself up for potential success the following week (ie. avoiding that 4 vs 1 matchup). Too many of those matches have a scoreless 1-minute 1st period. 

That is an NFHS rule that varsity consolation matches are 1-2-2.  The IHSAA might be able to make an exception, but they rarely stray too far from the NFHS.  

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On 2/17/2020 at 12:38 AM, SWINfan said:

 

Like Kentucky and their 32 man field?  I agree...

 

I just wish they would wrestle back Semi-State to 3rd (make the 1st round the Ticket Round if that saves time) and State all the way to 3rd.  A guy losing Saturday morning to the State Champ shouldn't be limited to 5th Place, IMO.

KY does have true wrestle backs to 3rd. 2 full days of wrestling. 

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4 minutes ago, takemtothemat said:

KY does have true wrestle backs to 3rd. 2 full days of wrestling. 

States with wrestle Backs at State Tournament

AL, AK, AZ, AR, CA, CO, CT, DE, FL, GA, HI, ID, IL, IA, KS, KY, LA, ME, MA,MD, MI, MN, MO, MT, NE, NV, NH, NJ, NM,NY, NC, ND

OH, OK, OR,  PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VE, VA, WA,WV, WI, WY

 

States without wrestle Backs

Indiana, Mississippi*

 

Mississippi does not have state tournament.

 

 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

States with wrestle Backs at State Tournament

AL, AK, AZ, AR, CA, CO, CT, DE, FL, GA, HI, ID, IL, IA, KS, KY, LA, ME, MA,MD, MI, MN, MO, MT, NE, NV, NH, NJ, NM,NY, NC, ND

OH, OK, OR,  PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VE, VA, WA,WV, WI, WY

 

States without wrestle Backs

Indiana, Mississippi*

 

Mississippi does not have state tournament.

 

 

 

 

Thats pretty overwhelming facts there.  

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3 hours ago, GrecoCoach said:

That is an NFHS rule that varsity consolation matches are 1-2-2.  The IHSAA might be able to make an exception, but they rarely stray too far from the NFHS.  

I feel like at one point the NFHS rules book gave the option of either 2-2-2 or 1-2-2 consolation.  However, I haven’t looked at it in quite some time, so the 2-2-2 consol option may have been stricken due to never even getting used.   

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On 2/17/2020 at 12:17 PM, Bstark said:

Similar camp as Steve is in - originally from PA, coached in Ohio for a few years before jumping across the border to IN...no wrestle backs at the Semi-State level will never make sense to me.  No doubt some kids will always be on the short end of the blood round .. so let's take that off the table..

 

What's more surprising is the basic economic benefits of wrestle backs and a two-day tournament and how that could be unappealing to ANYONE in a governing body.

 

Basic (and likely not 100% accurate) mathematics.

Let's say 5,000 people were at New Castle last Saturday, paying $12 a person = $60,000

 

Run the first and second round on Friday night and charge $10 = $50,000

Cut the total population in half for Saturday placing matches @ $10 = $25,000

Bringing total revenues in at $75,000 ... a 22% positive change in revenue ... 

But would renting venues such as The Ford Center for two days be a viable option in this situation? I like the idea I just don't know if it will all work out if your  talking about rental for another whole day. What do the other venues cost the IHSAA for semi-state?

I'd hate to lose The Ford Center as a very comfortable place to watch some really good wrestling but other than Seymour's gym who would host an event like this in the southernmost part of the state? Seymour wasn't exactly comfortable but it did serve a purpose.

The other good thing about The Ford Center is that we as wrestling fans don't have to worry about manning concession stands, that's a big load off of shoulders, as a grade school coach I have a hard time finding parents to take care of this when our turn comes up.

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19 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

States with wrestle Backs at State Tournament

AL, AK, AZ, AR, CA, CO, CT, DE, FL, GA, HI, ID, IL, IA, KS, KY, LA, ME, MA,MD, MI, MN, MO, MT, NE, NV, NH, NJ, NM,NY, NC, ND

OH, OK, OR,  PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VE, VA, WA,WV, WI, WY

 

States without wrestle Backs

Indiana, Mississippi*

 

Mississippi does not have state tournament.

 

 

 

 

Thank you for this information.  WOW.  I figured most states would have the wrestlebacks but basically what this tells me is every state that has a state tournament has wrestlebacks except for Indiana.  So we are different and the powers that be like being different.  I am sure that they also know that we are the only state to not have wrestlebacks.  So taking this argument to them will probably fall short.  At this point, maybe we could take a baby step and allow wrestlebacks similar to the state tournament.  At least then it will allow wrestlebacks from the quarters. 

Edited by Y2CJ41
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44 minutes ago, SteveECWrestling said:

 

Technically we don't have wrestle backs at the state tournament.   If you lose in the quarters, you can wrestle for fifth, but you can't cross bracket back to 3rd place like a true wrestle back. Conversely, If you make semis, the worst you can do is 4th.  Just another instance were we don't get true placement in Indiana.  

 

Also note, we did have additional placement like you requested in 2013.   They wrestled out to 5th place at Semi state and regional.  They didn't wrestle for 7th and 8th like state.  It only created three extra matches per bracket.  The 4 wrestlers that lost in quarterfinals (2nd round) wrestled.  And  the winners of those two matches wrestled for 5th place, just like state.   I believe the main purpose was to get a true 5th place so we could get a true alternate.  I dont think they even added the points to the team score.  For some reason this was not popular and was eliminated the next year.  Im not sure why it was cut, and  if it was the coaches who decided or if  was dictated by the former basketball coaches on the IHSAA executive board.  They probably thought it was too similar to wrestle backs and we cant have that.

 

Here's the other bogus/crazy thing Indiana does at the state tournament.   Pay attention to the 1st round scoring Friday night.    The state tournament does not score advancement points or bonus points in the first round.  Scoring only starts in the second round. Serious, its true.  Its like the 1st round is some preliminary round that doesn't count.   So if you get a get a pin or major,  you dont score the the two extra points or get the .5 points for the major.    Nobody ever has given me a good explanation of why they do this. Why??  somebody on the board try to explain this, please.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Wrestling Scholar
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8 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Technically we don't have wrestle backs at the state tournament.   If you lose in the quarters, you can wrestle for fifth, but you can't cross bracket back to 3rd place like a true wrestle back. Conversely, If you make semis, the worst you can do is 4th.  Just another instance were we don't get true placement in Indiana.  

 

Also note, we did have additional placement like you requested in 2013.   They wrestled out to 5th place at Semi state and regional.  They didn't wrestle for 7th and 8th like state.  It only created three extra matches per bracket.  The 4 wrestlers that lost in quarterfinals (2nd round) wrestled.  And  the winners of those two matches wrestled for 5th place, just like state.   I believe the main purpose was to get a true 5th place so we could get a true alternate.  I dont think they even added the points to the team score.  For some reason this was not popular and was eliminated the next year.  Im not sure why it was cut, and  if it was the coaches who decided or if  was dictated by the former basketball coaches on the IHSAA executive board.  They probably thought it was too similar to wrestle backs and we cant have that.

 

Here's the other bogus/crazy thing Indiana does at the state tournament.   Pay attention to the 1st round scoring Friday night.    The state tournament does not score advancement points or bonus points in the first round.  Scoring only starts in the second round. Serious, its true.  Its like the 1st round is some preliminary round that doesn't count.   So if you get a get a pin or major,  you dont score the the two extra points or get the .5 points for the major.    Nobody ever has given me a good explanation of why they do this. Why??  somebody on the board try to explain this, please.

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly I'm surprised the IHSAA is continuing to sponsor the sport. Sometimes I think it would be better if we would just drop the IHSAA and let the IHSWCA be the only governing body. It is bold and extreme, but it would get us to where we want to be sooner. We would no longer be held hostage. We could have wrestle backs and first round scoring.

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42 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

 

Here's the other bogus/crazy thing Indiana does at the state tournament.   Pay attention to the 1st round scoring Friday night.    The state tournament does not score advancement points or bonus points in the first round.  Scoring only starts in the second round. Serious, its true.  Its like the 1st round is some preliminary round that doesn't count.   So if you get a get a pin or major,  you dont score the the two extra points or get the .5 points for the major.    Nobody ever has given me a good explanation of why they do this. Why??  somebody on the board try to explain this, please.

 

 

Here's what I remember the story being, which also explains how the IHSAA thinks...

The coaches' association proposed not scoring the first round (pigtails) of SECTIONALS because not all teams had that match, and some close Sectional team scores/champions were determined by who had the most pigtail matches.  The IHSAA took that and then decided that it should be consistent throughout the whole state series, so team scores don't start until the quarter finals at each stage.  And since nobody at the IHSAA understands wrestling, they cannot fathom why Semi State and State would be any different, even though there are full brackets for that first round.

 

Edited by GrecoCoach
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