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My first Indiana Post-Season Experience


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I currently live in Indiana but lived most of my life in Ohio.  I wrestled in Ohio and attended the state wrestling tournament there for 20 consecutive years.  This year, I attended the IHSAA post season Semi State at New Castle for the first time ever.  Was my first post season event ever attended for Indiana High School Wrestling.  My first experience was almost entirely positive.  I can tell you the perception in Ohio is that Indiana Wrestling is not as competitive.  I personally had this belief as well.  I do not anymore.  I don’t know if New Castle is that much more competitive from the other Semi-State’s but the quality of wrestling there was excellent.  I would go as far as saying there were kids who did not make it out that I could see being state qualifiers in Ohio.  My only grip, which most of you could probably guess, was the qualification process.  SMH.  Why?  I just can’t wrap my head around the thought process that went into decided that you need to make the semi finals and your in.  This does not ensure the best four getting out.  Having double elimination also does not ensure the “best” 4 getting out but it does allow tough quarter final draws to have a second chance.  The state’s response could be to not lose and your okay.  I get it, but for a lot of kids their goals are not to be a state champ.  Maybe it’s to make it state or place in state.  I am curious how many other states do it like this?  My favorite round in all of Ohio’s post season wrestling is District (their semi-state) Conso-Semi’s.  I wish Indiana would revisit this, but I also know that others have probably voiced their opinions over the years and here we are still the same.  Also, New Castle is an awesome venue!

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I currently live in Indiana but lived most of my life in Ohio.  I wrestled in Ohio and attended the state wrestling tournament there for 20 consecutive years.  This year, I attended the IHSAA post sea

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Steve,. I moved her about 12 years ago.  I lived 4 years in Ohio and my older son wrestled in Ohio out of the Sandusky area.  I attended a few State tournaments at OSU.  Really fun time and great envi

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2 minutes ago, SteveECWrestling said:

I currently live in Indiana but lived most of my life in Ohio.  I wrestled in Ohio and attended the state wrestling tournament there for 20 consecutive years.  This year, I attended the IHSAA post season Semi State at New Castle for the first time ever.  Was my first post season event ever attended for Indiana High School Wrestling.  My first experience was almost entirely positive.  I can tell you the perception in Ohio is that Indiana Wrestling is not as competitive.  I personally had this belief as well.  I do not anymore.  I don’t know if New Castle is that much more competitive from the other Semi-State’s but the quality of wrestling there was excellent.  I would go as far as saying there were kids who did not make it out that I could see being state qualifiers in Ohio.  My only grip, which most of you could probably guess, was the qualification process.  SMH.  Why?  I just can’t wrap my head around the thought process that went into decided that you need to make the semi finals and your in.  This does not ensure the best four getting out.  Having double elimination also does not ensure the “best” 4 getting out but it does allow tough quarter final draws to have a second chance.  The state’s response could be to not lose and your okay.  I get it, but for a lot of kids their goals are not to be a state champ.  Maybe it’s to make it state or place in state.  I am curious how many other states do it like this?  My favorite round in all of Ohio’s post season wrestling is District (their semi-state) Conso-Semi’s.  I wish Indiana would revisit this, but I also know that others have probably voiced their opinions over the years and here we are still the same.  Also, New Castle is an awesome venue!

 

Believe me when I say this sir, you are certainly not the first (not even the 100th+ person this week haha) To say this. Even by well respected coaches (I.e. @Ed Pendoski) who have come up with some great ideas to account for this “mess” of a system. Regardless of the system, 224 great wrestlers will be competing this coming weekend at Banker’s Life Fieldhouse and I definitely encourage you to attend. And definitely keep coming back to New Castle SS, it makes for a long, but great Saturday of high caliber wrestling.

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The only reason I have heard that makes sense to me is if power schools beat each other before or in ticket rounds, maybe IHSAA gets more butts in seats at Bankers Life since other schools that would not make it otherwise, make it. 
 

This is somewhat conspiracy theory, but can anyone else give a reason why it’s like this?

 

Has Faulkens or anyone at IHSAA ever given the reason why?

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28 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

The wrestle-backs in always a fun topic to talk about. About 10 years ago we had an interview with Bobby Cox and he basically made some statements that told why we don't have wrestle-backs.

Thanks for this.  So 3 times it was proposed and they didn't even entertain the topic?  I would at least think that it would be discussed.  I am not saying if everyone else is doing something to do it, but I believe most states have wrestle backs.  Let's think for a second that NCAA National Championship was ran this way.  People would be up in arms.  It would never happen. 

 

 

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43 minutes ago, SteveECWrestling said:

I currently live in Indiana but lived most of my life in Ohio.  I wrestled in Ohio and attended the state wrestling tournament there for 20 consecutive years.  This year, I attended the IHSAA post season Semi State at New Castle for the first time ever.  Was my first post season event ever attended for Indiana High School Wrestling.  My first experience was almost entirely positive.  I can tell you the perception in Ohio is that Indiana Wrestling is not as competitive.  I personally had this belief as well.  I do not anymore.  I don’t know if New Castle is that much more competitive from the other Semi-State’s but the quality of wrestling there was excellent.  I would go as far as saying there were kids who did not make it out that I could see being state qualifiers in Ohio.  My only grip, which most of you could probably guess, was the qualification process.  SMH.  Why?  I just can’t wrap my head around the thought process that went into decided that you need to make the semi finals and your in.  This does not ensure the best four getting out.  Having double elimination also does not ensure the “best” 4 getting out but it does allow tough quarter final draws to have a second chance.  The state’s response could be to not lose and your okay.  I get it, but for a lot of kids their goals are not to be a state champ.  Maybe it’s to make it state or place in state.  I am curious how many other states do it like this?  My favorite round in all of Ohio’s post season wrestling is District (their semi-state) Conso-Semi’s.  I wish Indiana would revisit this, but I also know that others have probably voiced their opinions over the years and here we are still the same.  Also, New Castle is an awesome venue!

 

Nobody's said it directly, but the IHSAA forces us to do it this way. We've tried every way we can think of to beg for change but they wont have it. All the logical reasons you give have been given a thousand times. 

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1 minute ago, SteveECWrestling said:

Thanks for this.  So 3 times it was proposed and they didn't even entertain the topic?  I would at least think that it would be discussed.  I am not saying if everyone else is doing something to do it, but I believe most states have wrestle backs.  Let's think for a second that NCAA National Championship was ran this way.  People would be up in arms.  It would never happen. 

 

 

It has been proposed and voted down. I wanna say around 2008 it was a really close vote. Since then it has been like 1-16 or 0-17 for the voting.

 

The IHSAA doesn't like the "everyone else is doing it" reasoning, they actually would rather be unique than follow the status quo.

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5 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

It has been proposed and voted down. I wanna say around 2008 it was a really close vote. Since then it has been like 1-16 or 0-17 for the voting.

 

The IHSAA doesn't like the "everyone else is doing it" reasoning, they actually would rather be unique than follow the status quo.

They also don't like the "vast majority, if not all, of those actually involved with the sport think it would be an improvement" argument. 

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58 minutes ago, SteveECWrestling said:

I currently live in Indiana but lived most of my life in Ohio.  I wrestled in Ohio and attended the state wrestling tournament there for 20 consecutive years.  This year, I attended the IHSAA post season Semi State at New Castle for the first time ever.  Was my first post season event ever attended for Indiana High School Wrestling.  My first experience was almost entirely positive.  I can tell you the perception in Ohio is that Indiana Wrestling is not as competitive.  I personally had this belief as well.  I do not anymore.  I don’t know if New Castle is that much more competitive from the other Semi-State’s but the quality of wrestling there was excellent.  I would go as far as saying there were kids who did not make it out that I could see being state qualifiers in Ohio.  My only grip, which most of you could probably guess, was the qualification process.  SMH.  Why?  I just can’t wrap my head around the thought process that went into decided that you need to make the semi finals and your in.  This does not ensure the best four getting out.  Having double elimination also does not ensure the “best” 4 getting out but it does allow tough quarter final draws to have a second chance.  The state’s response could be to not lose and your okay.  I get it, but for a lot of kids their goals are not to be a state champ.  Maybe it’s to make it state or place in state.  I am curious how many other states do it like this?  My favorite round in all of Ohio’s post season wrestling is District (their semi-state) Conso-Semi’s.  I wish Indiana would revisit this, but I also know that others have probably voiced their opinions over the years and here we are still the same.  Also, New Castle is an awesome venue!

 

If you think new castle is awesome just wait until next week. The state tournament is unreal! One of the best atmospheres for any high school event in the country and great for the kids to be able to wrestle in a place like bankers life

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1 hour ago, SteveECWrestling said:

I currently live in Indiana but lived most of my life in Ohio.  I wrestled in Ohio and attended the state wrestling tournament there for 20 consecutive years.  This year, I attended the IHSAA post season Semi State at New Castle for the first time ever.  Was my first post season event ever attended for Indiana High School Wrestling.  My first experience was almost entirely positive.  I can tell you the perception in Ohio is that Indiana Wrestling is not as competitive.  I personally had this belief as well.  I do not anymore.  I don’t know if New Castle is that much more competitive from the other Semi-State’s but the quality of wrestling there was excellent.  I would go as far as saying there were kids who did not make it out that I could see being state qualifiers in Ohio.  My only grip, which most of you could probably guess, was the qualification process.  SMH.  Why?  I just can’t wrap my head around the thought process that went into decided that you need to make the semi finals and your in.  This does not ensure the best four getting out.  Having double elimination also does not ensure the “best” 4 getting out but it does allow tough quarter final draws to have a second chance.  The state’s response could be to not lose and your okay.  I get it, but for a lot of kids their goals are not to be a state champ.  Maybe it’s to make it state or place in state.  I am curious how many other states do it like this?  My favorite round in all of Ohio’s post season wrestling is District (their semi-state) Conso-Semi’s.  I wish Indiana would revisit this, but I also know that others have probably voiced their opinions over the years and here we are still the same.  Also, New Castle is an awesome venue!

 

Steve,. I moved her about 12 years ago.  I lived 4 years in Ohio and my older son wrestled in Ohio out of the Sandusky area.  I attended a few State tournaments at OSU.  Really fun time and great environment.. Also wrestled in Kansas and Missouri.  I've seen a lot of state tournaments.  

When I moved to Indiana, I also said WTF, the state qualification process is bizarre.   Being hear 12 years, I still ponder a lot on why they do it and realize they will never change.   Here's my conclusions on why Indiana does it.  

1.  The Indiana State qualifying  system  has the "Hoosier Syndrome" DNA built into it.   See the movie Hoosiers.  The whole point is  belief is one class  and one champion.  If you have one champion, and  If you lose early in a qualifying round then were not the best and continuing to contend for placement is irrelevant and waste of time.

2. At some point in time, the Indiana legislature dictated to the IHSAA  that it is not ok to miss school for sports participation.  As you notice the whole very long state series takes place on weekends.  With a one class state system, and to have full wrestle backs, you would to extend the tournament to weekdays requiring  the missing of missinv of school which is strongly against IHSAA philosophy.

3.  Basketball dominates Indiana and to some degree football.   The IHSAA executive board who could make changes to the qualification format is made up of athletic directors from Indiana High Scools.  Most of these board members have Basketball backgrounds and some football.  I'm not aware of any former wrestling coaches.   These sports do not have the equivalent of wrestle backs and have also have the one loss you're done philosophy ingrained into their beliefs.   They  do not believe in double elimination (strong bias at the IHSAA)  and are offended that wrestling requests it.  Our wrestling committee who presents rule changes was directed to not use the term wrestle backs when requesting policy change. Wrestle backs even though an integral part of wrestling is a dirty word at the IHSAA.

4.  The  Legacy of sudden death and no wrestle backs is ingrained into the wrestling community in Indiana.  A majority of people would love to see wrestle backs, but a large minority of people love the Indiana tradition. When they participated, they had to deal with the  unfairness of the luck of the draw.  Why should younger kids get the benefit of dealing with wrestle backs.

5. The randomness of sudden death is entertaining.  People love the ticket round and seeing two highly ranked kids meet knowing somebody is going home unfairly.  It creates drama.  I've made the same argument you did that the consolation semi final ticket round is just as exciting to no avail.  If you thought the semi state quarter finals were unfair. Wait till the state tournament.  You have kids to through the gauntlet of qualifying for the state tournament.   Then half of the kids lose and are done.  Although entertaining, I get a dirty feeling of unfairness.   Why does Indiana want to bring the best talent in the state for a showcase, but try to shorten it for the least of among of wrestling they can get.  It never made sense to me.  

 

Anyway I'm personally biased as my son's lost in one of those close ticket round matches at semi state and wish he  had the benefit of a wrestleback.  It just isn't right if you're a traditional wrestling can.

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Don’t mind not having wrestle backs.. One True Champion, most of you guys would want classes and then at the end of the year hold another tournament to bring all the class champions and 2nd places together to see who’s the best.. 

I’ve always been around the way IHSAA does it, so that might be the way I wouldn’t want a change. 

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One thing that i heard mentioned today by another coach was that from the time kids are 6-7 years old nearly every tournament they wrestle in has wrestlebacks then they get to high school and they are no more. How does that make any sense? The reasoning basically by Bobby Cox from the article is that the goal is determining the best 14 wrestlers which doesn’t necessarily happen every year at every weight. If that’s the case why do they advance roughly 20 or so cross country runners for the post season? Especially considering last year the first place and last place at state were separated by around 4 mins. A runner was not going to cut 4 mins off their time from week to week, however a wrestler could change the outcome of a match from early in the day to late in the day. Wrestling is fundamentally different than any other sport so why is there such disagreement from the powers that be to listen to the people actually involved in the sport?

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The following scenario will never ever happen, but go with me here haha. I propose the ticket round move to the first round of semi state then after that wrestle backs to 3rd, but take the top 6 from each SS expanding the state tourney to 32 at each weight. The 5s & 6s from each weight have to wrestle twice on Friday night to advance. So the 5s & 6s from each weight feed into the 4-4s then the winners of that move into face the 1s. Then proceed with Saturday morning the 1v4/5/6 matches with the losers going home, get rid of the multi hour break between the consoles and the finals and have the kids who in Saturday morning wrestle 3 more matches throughout the rest of Saturday.

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53 minutes ago, Sutton047 said:

The following scenario will never ever happen, but go with me here haha. I propose the ticket round move to the first round of semi state then after that wrestle backs to 3rd, but take the top 6 from each SS expanding the state tourney to 32 at each weight. The 5s & 6s from each weight have to wrestle twice on Friday night to advance. So the 5s & 6s from each weight feed into the 4-4s then the winners of that move into face the 1s. Then proceed with Saturday morning the 1v4/5/6 matches with the losers going home, get rid of the multi hour break between the consoles and the finals and have the kids who in Saturday morning wrestle 3 more matches throughout the rest of Saturday.

But adding more wrestlers to the state finals would water it down. We don't want a watered down state finals event.

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12 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

But adding more wrestlers to the state finals would water it down. We don't want a watered down state finals event.

1st, I feel honored to finally be quoted by you (even in a negative light haha) and I hope this doesn’t get me blackballed. 2nd, totally get it, but at the same time something has to be solved for the fact that we do not have the top wrestlers at each weight competeing. I’d even lobby to move to 2 semi states with the top 8 coming from each weight. I have a slightly biased opinion, I will admit. But I’ve now sat in the stands at New Castle for 8 years and watched so many different (deserving) wrestlers not make it to state (that could make some noise (#. And I know it’s happening other places too. I am nothing but an advocate for the (underrated Indiana wrestling scene). But just look at New Castle this year, minimum 24 state ranked wrestlers not making the trip the the Bank, that’s a travesty to me. 113- Wilburn, Carrender, Glithero.. 120- Perry, Simone (didn’t include Thrine because he lost in the 1st round and in my scenario goes home anyway). It’s happening elsewhere too. Tell me that none of those 6 wrestlers aren’t capable or worthy of the opportunity of placing at state. I can go on and on

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1 hour ago, Sutton047 said:

The following scenario will never ever happen, but go with me here haha. I propose the ticket round move to the first round of semi state then after that wrestle backs to 3rd, but take the top 6 from each SS expanding the state tourney to 32 at each weight. The 5s & 6s from each weight have to wrestle twice on Friday night to advance. So the 5s & 6s from each weight feed into the 4-4s then the winners of that move into face the 1s. Then proceed with Saturday morning the 1v4/5/6 matches with the losers going home, get rid of the multi hour break between the consoles and the finals and have the kids who in Saturday morning wrestle 3 more matches throughout the rest of Saturday.

If you take the top 6 from each semi-state isn’t it top 24 not 32. So you are only expanding by 8. Or did I get lost in the math? Not sure where 32 is coming from. 

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9 minutes ago, SunDevils said:

If you take the top 6 from each semi-state isn’t it top 24 not 32. So you are only expanding by 8. Or did I get lost in the math? Not sure where 32 is coming from. 

Your math is correct, mine was off. Just a little fired up haha

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12 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

It has been proposed and voted down. I wanna say around 2008 it was a really close vote. Since then it has been like 1-16 or 0-17 for the voting.

 

The IHSAA doesn't like the "everyone else is doing it" reasoning, they actually would rather be unique than follow the status quo.

 

Do they not understand the concept that being on the podium is a BIG deal to most kids, even if they aren't the Champion?  He compared it to other regular season tournaments, but what is their logic that their way is better than every other state (assumption - at least most), and the NCAA?  I know they are not the NCAA, but finishing in the top 8 is an important part of the sport.  It just seems to me that they feel like their way is the better than everyone else's.  And I would also argue, there there is definitely a possibility that a kid eliminated in the Ticket Round at Semi-State could end up as the State Champion occasionally.  Not often, but its possible.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

But adding more wrestlers to the state finals would water it down. We don't want a watered down state finals event.

 

Like Kentucky and their 32 man field?  I agree...

 

I just wish they would wrestle back Semi-State to 3rd (make the 1st round the Ticket Round if that saves time) and State all the way to 3rd.  A guy losing Saturday morning to the State Champ shouldn't be limited to 5th Place, IMO.

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16 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

The wrestle-backs in always a fun topic to talk about. About 10 years ago we had an interview with Bobby Cox and he basically made some statements that told why we don't have wrestle-backs.

 

 


 

Thanks for sharing that. 
 

He says it’s because the state tournament is about determining who the 14 best wrestlers are. I would say it should be about determining who the best 112 wrestlers are. 

 

And further, without an official Team State, the IHSAA team champions are determined by the Individual state tournament points scoring and I don’t think we are getting the most accurate picture since all placements score points, and kids that would place often end up never making it to state. 
 

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7 hours ago, Sutton047 said:

1st, I feel honored to finally be quoted by you (even in a negative light haha) and I hope this doesn’t get me blackballed. 2nd, totally get it, but at the same time something has to be solved for the fact that we do not have the top wrestlers at each weight competeing. I’d even lobby to move to 2 semi states with the top 8 coming from each weight. I have a slightly biased opinion, I will admit. But I’ve now sat in the stands at New Castle for 8 years and watched so many different (deserving) wrestlers not make it to state (that could make some noise (#. And I know it’s happening other places too. I am nothing but an advocate for the (underrated Indiana wrestling scene). But just look at New Castle this year, minimum 24 state ranked wrestlers not making the trip the the Bank, that’s a travesty to me. 113- Wilburn, Carrender, Glithero.. 120- Perry, Simone (didn’t include Thrine because he lost in the 1st round and in my scenario goes home anyway). It’s happening elsewhere too. Tell me that none of those 6 wrestlers aren’t capable or worthy of the opportunity of placing at state. I can go on and on

As much as I agree that your idea is solid and could work well we have over 50% of the people in this state that basically say adding state qualifiers would make our state finals basically unwatchable.

 

States like Kentucky, California, and New Jersey that are also single class have more than 16 state qualifiers in each weight. 

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7 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

But adding more wrestlers to the state finals would water it down. We don't want a watered down state finals event.

 

9 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

As much as I agree that your idea is solid and could work well we have over 50% of the people in this state that basically say adding state qualifiers would make our state finals basically unwatchable.

 

 

I doubt if that's true.

 

It seems like you are conflating the arguments of (i) people who think that adding more qualifiers by splitting the individual tournament into more than one class "waters down" what we have, (ii) people who have no problem adding more qualifiers to our single class system, and (iii) people who think anything more than  16 qualifiers would "water down" what's so great about our current tournament. 

 

I think categories i and ii probably have a lot of overlap and could be more than 50%, but category iii is a whole other category of people and is way smaller than 50%.

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1 minute ago, Silence Dogood said:

 

 

I doubt if that's true.

 

It seems like you are conflating the arguments of (i) people who think that adding more qualifiers by splitting the individual tournament into more than one class "waters down" what we have, (ii) people who have no problem adding more qualifiers to our single class system, and (iii) people who think anything more than  16 qualifiers would "water down" what's so great about our current tournament. 

 

I think categories i and ii probably have a lot of overlap and could be more than 50%, but category iii is a whole other category of people and is way smaller than 50%.

Watering down is watering down, we have people very adamant that they wouldn't even show up for the state finals if there were more competitors. We like our TOUGH state finals and probably should allow less wrestlers so that it shows how tough we are. We ain't snowflakes in Indiana with class wrestling or added qualifiers. 

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