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Beeks vs Hardcastle ticket round match


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22 minutes ago, Manimal2001 said:

You don’t think Hardcastle has dreams of becoming a star qualifier too? He worked hard to get to that point too. What if Beeks would have had his knee injured like what happened in that situation. And don’t be saying subtle comments about the coaching staff, I heard you yesterday talking crap about the coaching staff. Just low. 

I know and understand that Hardcastle has dreams of being a State Qualifier and that is why I said nothing negative about him. What I was frustrated with was that Josh wasn't given the opportunity because of a "Caution" and a questionable one at that. I was not impressed with the Oak Hill coaching staff and how they handled the situation and am pretty sure they are aware of that. I am sorry for the subtle comments I will make them clear! 

 

Ryan Landis - head coach at Southern Wells if that wasn't clear?? 

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I know and understand that Hardcastle has dreams of being a State Qualifier and that is why I said nothing negative about him. What I was frustrated with was that Josh wasn't given the opportunity bec

I was at the Al Smith and I was the official most of the Day on Mat one. Name is Leo Mercado, and I truly work really hard to make sure I stay consistent with the rules of our sport and apply them lik

We don't need another week of the state series.   A simple rule change that during the state tournament if you injury default you are not allowed to wrestle the rest of the day would suffice

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I was going to keep my mouth shut about the topic. Here is our side. Whether or not Beeks hit the shot on the whistle or not, we thought during the time he was legitimately hurt. I think everyone can tell from the video the leg buckled. The trainer could not tell during the 1 min 30 seconds of injury time if something was wrong with the knee. We didn’t know that Aidan won the match till after the injury time was already out. I’m truly sorry for Josh that his career had to end like that. I wish it didn’t have to be like this and the match could of been wrestled. I was truly worried for my brothers leg at the time. After the match the trainer said nothing was torn in the knee and that he couldn’t hurt it anymore than it was. Sorry he didn’t show more “signs” of being hurt. We have the upmost respect for the beeks family and Southern Wells. Injury defaulting was definitely thought about and our decision to give it ago was not decided till the match before Aidan’s semifinals. I had my brothers back in whatever decision he made. 

Brody Hardcastle 

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I didn't see the match other then the video but it seams everyone is going on the assumption that Beeks would have won the match. Either way Hardcastle was good enough to win the tournament. So if Beeks would have won that means that the 2nd best wrestler would have went home. This is another great example of needing wrestle backs. As far as wrestling after getting hit in the knee, it could defantly affect you in that match but after some ice and ibuprofen you could be good to go after that. Sucks either way for one that a good kid won't make it.

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7 minutes ago, boomer said:

I didn't see the match other then the video but it seams everyone is going on the assumption that Beeks would have won the match. Either way Hardcastle was good enough to win the tournament. So if Beeks would have won that means that the 2nd best wrestler would have went home. This is another great example of needing wrestle backs. As far as wrestling after getting hit in the knee, it could defantly affect you in that match but after some ice and ibuprofen you could be good to go after that. Sucks either way for one that a good kid won't make it.

Nope not assuming the outcome of the match...just wanted the opportunity for Josh to earn it, that's my point. A caution for a false start ended a wrestlers career! 

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29 minutes ago, AdamsCoBuschhh said:

I don't remember the ref of the Beeks/Hardcastle match, but it wasn't the god awful one from the Al Smith, was it?  I know he was on Mat 1 a lot that day, with quite a few terrible calls.

 

I was at the Al Smith and I was the official most of the Day on Mat one. Name is Leo Mercado, and I truly work really hard to make sure I stay consistent with the rules of our sport and apply them like the rulebook states to apply them. I typically don't like to throw jabs at anyone and I hope that this doesn't come out as a jab to anyone or anything; but I truly work hard to make sure my signals, mechanics, interpretations, and rules applications of the sport are delivered clearly and consistent throughout the whole match in the whole entire arena, so that even the deaf man at the nosebleed seats can understand my call. If you don't want me calling a "bad" match for your kid, scratch me like any other coach does in the our state because I apply the rules the way they should be applied.

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33 minutes ago, AdamsCoBuschhh said:

I don't remember the ref of the Beeks/Hardcastle match, but it wasn't the god awful one from the Al Smith, was it?  I know he was on Mat 1 a lot that day, with quite a few terrible calls.

 

16 minutes ago, lemercad said:

 

I was at the Al Smith and I was the official most of the Day on Mat one. Name is Leo Mercado, and I truly work really hard to make sure I stay consistent with the rules of our sport and apply them like the rulebook states to apply them. I typically don't like to throw jabs at anyone and I hope that this doesn't come out as a jab to anyone or anything; but I truly work hard to make sure my signals, mechanics, interpretations, and rules applications of the sport are delivered clearly and consistent throughout the whole match in the whole entire arena, so that even the deaf man at the nosebleed seats can understand my call. If you don't want me calling a "bad" match for your kid, scratch me like any other coach does in the our state because I apply the rules the way they should be applied.

 

jim carrey ok GIF

 

 

Homer Simpson Reaction GIF

 

 

 

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Watched the video multiple times.... and timed the arm motion to the wrestlers motion and it seemed he timed it well in our entire rooms OPINION. We had all 4 matches up and the only other whistle blowing was a mat away...so watching the ref and his arm motion should equate to the start of the match....or refs shouldn’t do it at all!?!
 

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8 hours ago, SWwrestling said:

 

Beeks vs Hardcastle (4399268).zip 32.3 MB · 280 downloads

 

Here is the video from mats side and you tell me what whistle Josh went on? There were all kinds of whistles on mat 2 and if you watch referees hand motion looks to be a clean start? 

That's a clean start...sad situation...

Edited by nkraus
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8 hours ago, Manimal2001 said:

You don’t think Hardcastle has dreams of becoming a star qualifier too? He worked hard to get to that point too. What if Beeks would have had his knee injured like what happened in that situation. And don’t be saying subtle comments about the coaching staff, I heard you yesterday talking crap about the coaching staff. Just low. 

What injury?  Not being mean, but Hardcastle won the semi state after his injury...Crappy situation...as boomer implied earlier...wrestle backs could help this...both are tough kids...we don't know who would've won...just sucks to see a career end like that.  I know that Coach Landis does a fantastic job with SW and I was rooting for him

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15 hours ago, bigballerb said:

I was going to keep my mouth shut about the topic. Here is our side. Whether or not Beeks hit the shot on the whistle or not, we thought during the time he was legitimately hurt. I think everyone can tell from the video the leg buckled. The trainer could not tell during the 1 min 30 seconds of injury time if something was wrong with the knee. We didn’t know that Aidan won the match till after the injury time was already out. I’m truly sorry for Josh that his career had to end like that. I wish it didn’t have to be like this and the match could of been wrestled. I was truly worried for my brothers leg at the time. After the match the trainer said nothing was torn in the knee and that he couldn’t hurt it anymore than it was. Sorry he didn’t show more “signs” of being hurt. We have the upmost respect for the beeks family and Southern Wells. Injury defaulting was definitely thought about and our decision to give it ago was not decided till the match before Aidan’s semifinals. I had my brothers back in whatever decision he made. 

Brody Hardcastle 

The referee is obligated to tell you if you are using injury time or recovery time. You may have not known but your head coach was fully aware of what time was being used.

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43 minutes ago, SWwrestling said:

The referee is obligated to tell you if you are using injury time or recovery time. You may have not known but your head coach was fully aware of what time was being used.

 Note in a recovery time situation like this, the wrestler has 2 minutes to recover which is different than the minute and a half of injury time.   Im sure the refs told the Oak HIl's coaches that this was recovery time as you could see there was a discussion on the video.

Just a mechanical mistake, but the ref signaled with his hand signal  to start injury time and should have used the recovery time signal for Oak Hill.   But this small mistake was easily to clarify or correct with the bench and coaches that this was indeed recovery time and was called correctly on a wrestler getting injured on a false start.  This is an obscure rule and doesn't  happen much, but was very relevant in this case.

 

On the hand signal to start the match,  the false start would be called if the wrestler moved prior to the whistle.    I hear a whistle but wasn't sure from this ref or  other mat.  Looking at the video, it  kind of looks like ref  didn't  blow his whistle.  If the ref didn't blow the  whistle, then its a good call.  Not sure.

 

 

  

 

 

 

recovery time.PNG

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Tough situation that hopefully brings better changes to our sport. Unfortunately for Mr. Beeks he had to pay that price. This is why wrestling is a great sport for our kids. In life there will be bigger problems and unfortunate events that occur than just losing a match like this. I believe Beeks will be fine and become an outstanding role model for others. I think this situation should bring officiating and tournament changes. There has been some negativity and probably rightly so in this thread, but let's make it a positive. Let's get this so that officiating can get better at signals and that everyone knows the situation. Let's get tournaments better so that we have wrestle backs at every stage of the state tournament. I don't care if it takes an extra week. I don't care if Ohio has 3 classes instead of one, but they have wrestle backs at state and it can be done. I'd push like heck to add another week of the tournament so that there are 8 man wrestle back brackets at sectional, additional week I'm calling districts, regionals, semi state, and state. Remember our season is over a month before basketball. Bobby is leaving, so let's pounce on this!

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6 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

We don't need another week of the state series.

 

A simple rule change that during the state tournament if you injury default you are not allowed to wrestle the rest of the day would suffice.

 

We should have wrestle backs to 3rd in every event of the state series. This shouldn't even be a question. Adding another week makes that much easier.

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Just now, casualwrestlingfan said:

 

We should have wrestle backs to 3rd in every event of the state series. This shouldn't even be a question. Adding another week makes that much easier.

This could be easily done without adding an extra week.  Indiana also has the longest state tournament in the country.  I don't think we need to make longer.

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2 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

This could be easily done without adding an extra week.  Indiana also has the longest state tournament in the country.  I don't think we need to make longer.

 

Which week are you changing to make this work better? Regional would be about the only one that would work currently.

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15 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

We don't need another week of the state series.

 

A simple rule change that during the state tournament if you injury default you are not allowed to wrestle the rest of the day would suffice.

That's a good idea.  That idea might have a slight chance to be viewed favorably in the wrestling community.   This sounds like this would have to be a NFHS rule change.  Could Indiana do on its own?   Has this idea ever been voted on?  

 

I can recall a few times this happening.  I remember a good kid from Portage that lost on a slam in the ticket round at Merillville about 8 years ago.  Happened around 10 years ago in a semi-finals match at state where a Cathedral kid ended up wrestling in the state finals after getting hurt.   That one was controversial.

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On 2/12/2020 at 2:05 PM, Ed Pendoski said:

Couple year's ago I brought up the idea of combining the Sectional and Regional Tourney into one tournament.

 

I don't have the numbers in front of me, so don't nail me to exact details.....

 

We have one of the largest regionals (most number of teams) and I'm thinking it's like 24ish teams.

 

You'd have to have a round of 32 in theory....most weights have more than 8 ffts if you combine sectionals.  That would be a quick round.

 

Seed top 12

 

Friday night: Rat tail matches (I believe the number was around 10 matches total).  Then have the round of 16 right after.  If you lose any of those, you're done.  

 

Saturday morning run an 8 man tourney with wrestlebacks.

 

When I looked at it I thought it would help with the ref shortage and make the state more money with less work.  It would also shorten the season a week, which might get us in the conversation of semi state wrestle backs down the road.

 

10 minutes ago, casualwrestlingfan said:

 

Which week are you changing to make this work better? Regional would be about the only one that would work currently.

 

See coach Pendoski's proposal from another thread. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, casualwrestlingfan said:

 

Which week are you changing to make this work better? Regional would be about the only one that would work currently.

You could wrestle one round on Friday night at SS and State tournament.   Basically you should make a two day tournament.

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2 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

You could wrestle one round on Friday night at SS and State tournament.   Basically you should make a two day tournament.

 

If keeping the same, why not keep 32 sectionals, reduce regionals to 8 sites, and 2 semi state sites (you know actually have it be a semi state and not quarter state). Each basically having 16 wrestlers (if we had 320 teams would be 10 at sectional time) with wrestle backs to 3rd place match at each event. This makes the top 8 on the podium already at state battling it out. If you want 16 at state, then take the top 8 from semi state.

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I can see both sides of this situation, but this is what I believe should have been done or what should be done in future situations like this.

 

The Ref and Head Ref should not have made a final decision until both coaches were aware of the situation. Each coach should get an opportunity to state their argument. Then if there is a video available, then let the refs review the video. Then before the Ref announces his final decision, the injured wrestler (Hardcastle in this situation), should determine if they can finish the match or not. Otherwise if the wrestler or coaching staff knows that if they can't finish then they win, then that doesn't give them much desire to push through to finish the match. If they are willing to to take that risk and say they are unable to finish the match, then I'm sure the refs would allow that to influence their final decision.    

 

At minimum, it would have been nice to make the SW coaching staff aware of what was going on. Give them an opportunity to state their case for something as serious as ticket round. There is no reason to surprise the opposing side when they raise the other kids hand. I don't know for sure, but I would guess SW coaches weren't aware of what was going on until they raise the other kids hand. That aspect of the situation seems unacceptable.

 

Just a thought...

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40 minutes ago, 10fiecd said:

I can see both sides of this situation, but this is what I believe should have been done or what should be done in future situations like this.

 

The Ref and Head Ref should not have made a final decision until both coaches were aware of the situation. Each coach should get an opportunity to state their argument. Then if there is a video available, then let the refs review the video. Then before the Ref announces his final decision, the injured wrestler (Hardcastle in this situation), should determine if they can finish the match or not. Otherwise if the wrestler or coaching staff knows that if they can't finish then they win, then that doesn't give them much desire to push through to finish the match. If they are willing to to take that risk and say they are unable to finish the match, then I'm sure the refs would allow that to influence their final decision.    

 

At minimum, it would have been nice to make the SW coaching staff aware of what was going on. Give them an opportunity to state their case for something as serious as ticket round. There is no reason to surprise the opposing side when they raise the other kids hand. I don't know for sure, but I would guess SW coaches weren't aware of what was going on until they raise the other kids hand. That aspect of the situation seems unacceptable.

 

Just a thought...

 

The ref called the caution right away. Hard not to do that with a caution.  The Southern Wells coaches probably didn't realize the potential magnitude of that call at the time to argue that it shouldn't have been a caution because of whistles from other mats and the ref's hand movement (I agree with an earlier comment questioning the appropriateness of the hand motion without a whistle).

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