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53 minutes ago, bulldog145 said:

I stand corrected.  I missed that Benton Central flipped over to Twin Lakes.  (Probably as an attempt to balance Sectionals)  The point of this was to point out that an overloaded sectional really snuffs a school trying to build a solid program when their is no post season success.  It is very frustrating for kids to see competition that they have beaten have post season success and the only reason for it is because of a more balanced Sectional.  

You can't tell me that having kids with a successful post season does not help build a program.  

This issue needs to be addressed or we will lose programs.

I can see where you're coming from.    Being stuck in the Frankfort Sectional which Clinton Central  is in is  a bear trap.  You have 4 really big 4a schools and couple medium size schools followed with four small schools.   You look at sectional placing and it pretty much follows school enrollment size with big schools dominating and little schools at the bottom.   Its probably frustrating to see locals small schools close to you that you compete well with  that get placed in the Peru, Twin Lakes, L Jeff , Crawfordsville sectionals, and they have markedly more success.   I think when sectionals are drawn up, they're more concerned with lower mileage as compared to overall balance. To your point they could even things out more in sectionals  but you're still restrained by the geography of the state.  Just a quick fact,  total enrollment of 10 teams  at the Frankfort sectional was 16,646 and compare that to the 12 teams in the Twin Lakes sectional which had total enrollment of 6,104.

 

I think you're making more of a class wrestling argument when you say small schools don't succeed because of post season success,   Because  most small schools eventually get caught up with the big schools at regional or SS. To disagree with Indy Sports Fan,  I think the daunting affect of a Clinton Central or Rossville having to face Carmel or Hamilton Southeastern every year could be discouraging and ultimately could affect participation or effort.    Experiencing failure is a good thing to learning and developing character,  but kids are also smart and they know it when they face overwhelming odds. It can affect their effort and participation.  It just doesn't come down to if we try harder, well end up winning.

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37 minutes ago, bulldog145 said:

 

I totally understand that and agree with you, but wouldn't we want to maximize the chance of an opportunity?  

 

Lowering the talent level at one site will increase the talent level at a different site.  I just believe it is impossible to make all things equal for everyone.

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1 minute ago, Galagore said:

There's this thing that other states do in order to balance out opportunities for individuals and schools...

What it is, free school lunch programs?:P

 

I have a feeling the annual "C_ _ _ _ Wrestling argument is on the horizon and Galagore is lock and loaded.

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3 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

(1) ....Just a quick fact,  total enrollment of 10 teams  at the Frankfort sectional was 16,646 and compare that to the 12 teams in the Twin Lakes sectional which had total enrollment of 6,104.

 

(2) I think the daunting affect of a Clinton Central or Rossville having to face Carmel or Hamilton Southeastern every year could be discouraging and ultimately could affect participation or effort.

 

(3) Experiencing failure is a good thing to learning and developing character,  but kids are also smart and they know it when they face overwhelming odds. It can affect their effort and participation.  It just doesn't come down to if we try harder, well end up winning.

 

1. I will agree that is a large disparity, moving a few schools in exchange for smaller schools will balance out the talent pool.

 

2. Could it happen, yes....does it happen, I don't know.  It has been my experience athletes will participate if they enjoy the sport.  I have been involved in sports for 35+ years (high school, CYO, Travel) and personally I have never heard any athlete state "I am quitting because our team can't win in the postseason".

 

3. I am in agreement with you, trying harder does not = winning. I remember playing golf in high school and in my SECTIONAL you had to shoot damn near even par to get out when other sites you could post a score in the 80's to advance.  Fast forward 35 years....same thing is occurring but the sport has survived and I would guess the participants have grown.  JMO, but challenges from a superior opponent does not make a quitter, that attitude was there from the beginning.  

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33 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

 I think when sectionals are drawn up, they're more concerned with lower mileage as compared to overall balance. To your point they could even things out more in sectionals  but you're still restrained by the geography of the state.  

 

I believe this is completely wrong.  Fishers and HSE drive time to Frankfort is just over and hour.  However they are only 45min or less away from Elwood.  And I'm sure there are more examples. 

 

1 of 2 things is happening. 

1. No one wants to put the work in to analyze a better solution OR

2. To much outside influence controlling alignments.

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8 minutes ago, bulldog145 said:

 

I believe this is completely wrong.  Fishers and HSE drive time to Frankfort is just over and hour.  However they are only 45min or less away from Elwood.  And I'm sure there are more examples. 

 

1 of 2 things is happening. 

1. No one wants to put the work in to analyze a better solution OR

2. To much outside influence controlling alignments.

The IHSAA wants success from all levels of schools, I truly believe that. 

 

Also true, I think the IHSAA cares about balancing sectionals, or we would be at Elwood or Lawrence Central, both of which are significantly closer (by more than 35 minutes drive time to Elwood and by more than 40 minutes drive time to Lawrence Central). However, with Cathedral and Mt. Vernon (as well as North Central, Lawrence North, and Lawrence Central, which in any give year could be very good) already at LC, which feeds into the same Pendleton Regional as the Elwood Sectional, we'd have to rob Peter to pay Paul to move us. Sure, moving HSE and Fishers to Elwood, would make that Sectional stronger, but then that Regional is HSE, Fishers, Noblesville, Pendleton, Anderson (who has 4-5 really good kids), Lawrence North, Lawrence Central, North Central, Cathedral, Mt. Vernon and several other smaller schools with 2-3 very solid kids. In my opinion, that'd be more of a meat grinder than Frankfort, so you're just moving your problem and making it Alexandria/Frankton/Lapel's problem. 

 

In my opinion, The real issue is too much talent in Indy overall. We have head to head wins over several kids that are likely to qualify for state in the Evansville and Ft. Wayne Semi-States, but our kids' chances of getting out are not so kind due to the strength of our area.

 

The only way to balance talent in the Indy area (as long as we have one class) is to move some of our schools from the I-69 Corridor on down to NE Indy up to Ft. Wayne for Semi-State. In order to do that, we'll have to have teams near Jay County, Muncie, etc; come down to New Castle and I don't see the IHSAA ever doing that unless a great many people cared a whole lot (and I'll bet that Muncie Central, Delta, Jay County, et al. would be less than pleased).

 

With regards to just balancing our Regional out more, do you think that moving Lebanon and Carmel (for example as they're the biggest schools farthest west) over would really make much of a difference with your program? I'm really asking here, because it seems like, yes, there'd be an additional 1-2 spots open per weight for Regionals, but if you were going to lose to that kid at Sectionals, you'll lose to him at Regionals, right? Is making it to Regionals that much different than being put out at Sectional? Perhaps it is. I don't have a problem with it either way. As long as that Regional is the same teams, there's not likely to be much difference in how many kids from each program go to Semi-State.

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42 minutes ago, Coach Brobst said:

With regards to just balancing our Regional out more, do you think that moving Lebanon and Carmel (for example as they're the biggest schools farthest west) over would really make much of a difference with your program? I'm really asking here, because it seems like, yes, there'd be an additional 1-2 spots open per weight for Regionals, but if you were going to lose to that kid at Sectionals, you'll lose to him at Regionals, right? Is making it to Regionals that much different than being put out at Sectional? Perhaps it is. I don't have a problem with it either way. As long as that Regional is the same teams, there's not likely to be much difference in how many kids from each program go to Semi-State.

 

Absolutely it would.  Taking 6-8 kids from our Sectional maybe with a Champ or 2 every year would absolutely help a program grow.  

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1 hour ago, bulldog145 said:

 

Absolutely it would.  Taking 6-8 kids from our Sectional maybe with a Champ or 2 every year would absolutely help a program grow.  

I'll agree that getting 6-8 to Regionals yearly would improve a program, but I'm not certain that would happen for anybody involved at the small schools. What we'd likely see is more Fishers kids qualify, more HSE kids qualify, and more Westfield kids qualify.

 

Removal of Carmel and Lebanon would have resulted in the following numbers moving on (if we just bump 5th to 4th and 6th to 5th, etc; though I realize it wouldn't go down that way exactly).

 

HSE: 12 (11 originally)

Westfield: 12 (10 originally)

Fishers: 12 (8 originally)

Frankfort: 7 (2 originally)

Sheridan: 5 (1 originally)

Rossville: 3 (1 originally)

Clinton Central: 3 (2 originally)

Clinton Prarie: 2 (2 originally)

 

Champs would have been broken down this way:

HSE:6 (2 this year)

Westfield: 5 (3 this year)

Fishers: 1 (1 this year)

Frankfort: 1 (0 this year)

Clinton Prarie: 1 (0 this year)

 

As you can see, of the 19 available spots vacating, 7 went to large schools, 5 more to Frankfort (much larger than the other schools in sectional) and a grand total of 7 went to the 4 1A schools.

 

On the champions level, large schools increased by 6, Frankfort took 1, and 1A schools got 1.

 

This doesn't even count the fact that moving 2 schools out, means at LEAST one (likely 2) schools come in, which will compete for and take their share of the spots as well (most likely candidates geographically are Crawfordsville, Zionsville (would create the same problem we're trying to fix), Western Boone, and North Montgomery, but it doesn't really matter which move over). 

 

The fact of the matter is, the only way any small school in the Frankfort Sectional at their current level is getting 6-8 out annually is if they moved them to Crawfordsville/Lafayette Jeff/etc; (which doesn't help the Frankfort Sectional become less dominant), there's serious redistricting of all REGIONALS and SEMI-STATES (in which case somebody is getting screwed no matter what), or class wrestling takes over the state of Indiana.

Edited by Coach Brobst
Added champion data
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Just now, bulldog145 said:

I totally agree with that.... for this year's results.  I think we are both in agreement that there needs to be a change somehow, somewhere or these small school programs will disappear completely.  

I 100% agree there. It isn't good for your program or any others your size to be having to compete there.

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2 hours ago, Coach Brobst said:

The IHSAA wants success from all levels of schools, I truly believe that. 

 

Also true, I think the IHSAA cares about balancing sectionals, or we would be at Elwood or Lawrence Central, both of which are significantly closer (by more than 35 minutes drive time to Elwood and by more than 40 minutes drive time to Lawrence Central). However, with Cathedral and Mt. Vernon (as well as North Central, Lawrence North, and Lawrence Central, which in any give year could be very good) already at LC, which feeds into the same Pendleton Regional as the Elwood Sectional, we'd have to rob Peter to pay Paul to move us. Sure, moving HSE and Fishers to Elwood, would make that Sectional stronger, but then that Regional is HSE, Fishers, Noblesville, Pendleton, Anderson (who has 4-5 really good kids), Lawrence North, Lawrence Central, North Central, Cathedral, Mt. Vernon and several other smaller schools with 2-3 very solid kids. In my opinion, that'd be more of a meat grinder than Frankfort, so you're just moving your problem and making it Alexandria/Frankton/Lapel's problem. 

 

In my opinion, The real issue is too much talent in Indy overall. We have head to head wins over several kids that are likely to qualify for state in the Evansville and Ft. Wayne Semi-States, but our kids' chances of getting out are not so kind due to the strength of our area.

 

The only way to balance talent in the Indy area (as long as we have one class) is to move some of our schools from the I-69 Corridor on down to NE Indy up to Ft. Wayne for Semi-State. In order to do that, we'll have to have teams near Jay County, Muncie, etc; come down to New Castle and I don't see the IHSAA ever doing that unless a great many people cared a whole lot (and I'll bet that Muncie Central, Delta, Jay County, et al. would be less than pleased).

 

 

I think  what you say makes  sense.   I think this is more prevalent than it was 10 years ago partially due to the population growth in the Indy Suburbs which is making the Indy are a little stronger every year, thus the New Castle SS is stronger. Yes, its much more  difficult to get out of  New Castle.   This is the same reason Evansville is getting  stronger with the increased growth of the Southern and Western Indy suburbs.   And if we follow a trend, well see more of the same with New Castle getting stronger and more unbalanced.  I like the idea of moving some schools up I-69.  Eventually something going to have to happen.

 

Heres and idea. Im recommending the Ohio method in dividing up state qualifers out of SS.  Ohio although classed, divides its state into 4 districts for qualification to the state tournament similar to our semi-states.   Basically its geopgraphically divided into 4 quadrants.   But the population in these quadrants is unequal.  The northeastern quadrant or district is much more heavily populated with Cleveland and burbs, Youngstown and Canton.  The Northwestern District is much less populated with only Toledo as the major city.  So to equalize things,  the Northeastern district gets 5 qualifiers while the Northwestern district only gets 3 state qualifiers. It works out fine.    So how do we apply that to  Indiana?

 

New Castle with the significantly higher enrollment population would get 5 qualifiers  while Fort Wayne would only get 3 state qualifiers.  You would still have the same 16 man brackets at state.  Maybe you would pack in our out some schools to get a ratio of enrollment of 3 to 5.   You might also have to pack or move to ensure East Chicago got 25% of the enrollment and Evansville got 25% of the enrollment, New Castle would have  31.25% of enrollment and Fort Wayne would have 18.75%.  You could also do a ratio of qualifiers at the regional level when there was a disparity.   Bigger enrollment sectionals like yours would get 5 SS qualifiers while less populated ones would get only 3.  You probably would see  similar ratios to the quotas Maligned generates for this qualifier.   

 

I know this wouldn't go  over well with Fort Wayne SS and im not sure how it would effect small schools, but it would help some and hurt others.

 

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

I think  what you say makes  sense.   I think this is more prevalent than it was 10 years ago partially due to the population growth in the Indy Suburbs which is making the Indy are a little stronger every year, thus the New Castle SS is stronger. Yes, its much more  difficult to get out of  New Castle.   This is the same reason Evansville is getting  stronger with the increased growth of the Southern and Western Indy suburbs.   And if we follow a trend, well see more of the same with New Castle getting stronger and more unbalanced.  I like the idea of moving some schools up I-69.  Eventually something going to have to happen.

 

Heres and idea. Im recommending the Ohio method in dividing up state qualifers out of SS.  Ohio although classed, divides its state into 4 districts for qualification to the state tournament similar to our semi-states.   Basically its geopgraphically divided into 4 quadrants.   But the population in these quadrants is unequal.  The northeastern quadrant or district is much more heavily populated with Cleveland and burbs, Youngstown and Canton.  The Northwestern District is much less populated with only Toledo as the major city.  So to equalize things,  the Northeastern district gets 5 qualifiers while the Northwestern district only gets 3 state qualifiers. It works out fine.    So how do we apply that to  Indiana?

 

New Castle with the significantly higher enrollment population would get 5 qualifiers  while Fort Wayne would only get 3 state qualifiers.  You would still have the same 16 man brackets at state.  Maybe you would pack in our out some schools to get a ratio of enrollment of 3 to 5.   You might also have to pack or move to ensure East Chicago got 25% of the enrollment and Evansville got 25% of the enrollment, New Castle would have  31.25% of enrollment and Fort Wayne would have 18.75%.  You could also do a ratio of qualifiers at the regional level when there was a disparity.   Bigger enrollment sectionals like yours would get 5 SS qualifiers while less populated ones would get only 3.  You probably would see  similar ratios to the quotas Maligned generates for this qualifier.   

 

I know this wouldn't go  over well with Fort Wayne SS and im not sure how it would effect small schools, but it would help some and hurt others.

 

 

 

 

 

I like the idea of changing qualifiers but that would require wrestle-backs to determine a true 5th in some amount. IHSAA would already have to move around semi-states, but it could be an idea to help in the future. At some point, there will be some changes made but I worry it’ll be a while. Before 3 years ago those sectionals had t been touched in quite a while. Someone who’s been around longer than I can probably speak to the exact length of time.

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Here's some food for thought of an idea on smaller schools pushing kids to semi-state, that would also tantalize the taste buds of you class lovin' folks. Practicality side of this, I have no idea the logistics and such, so maybe y'all can have at it, but:

 

Class sectionals and regionals, so nearby 1A's feed into a sectional, or a combination of 1A's and 2A's only feed into a sectional, then two of those sized sectionals feed into a regional, and then once you get to semi-state it is just like normal. And with the addition of a 4A class, you could then have 3A and 4A schools go into their own sectional, and etc.. This would help the smaller schools get their outstanding kids recognized and help them push those individuals through, while still have bigger school representation.

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