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Just throwing out a new paradigm.  Im thinking outside the box.   Here's an idea and looking for open minded opinions.  Good or bad.

Here's my idea: Rotating regionals.   Instead of having the same two sectionals going to the same Regional which is current state,  the new idea is to have every other year, move four of the sectional teams  or rotate to a different regional.  The benefit of this would be diversity and variety in the teams wrestling.  Consistently, there's a complaint that some regionals are stacked while others are soft.  Is it fair for the teams going to the tough regional to always have a tougher road to state while other teams get through Regionals easily?    So under the new plan, one year a team could hypothetically get the easier path with the weaker regional while the next year you have to go through a tougher one.    Regional locations can stay the same and four of the sections would always go to the same regional, but every other year there's a different sectional coming.    There's some pros and cons, including maybe a little more travel in some cases.  But this wouldn't be a monumental change and could be easily implemented.

 

Ill use the teams from the East Chicago SS to represent one of the possible combinations of rotation.

 

Current State  Year 1 (Odd numbered years)

Crown Point = Crown Point and Laporte

Penn =  Mishawka and Plymouth

Hobart = Portage and East Chicago

Logansport = Twin Lakes and Lafayette Jefferson

 

Proposed Change Year 2 (even numbered years)

Crown Point = Crown Point and Lafayette Jefferson

Penn =Mishawaka and East Chicago

Hobart=  Portage and Laporte

Logansport= Twin Lakes and Plymouth

 

Anyway,  I understand in wrestling formats, there is rarely a change and is very difficult to get inertia to change with the IHSAA and the coaches association,  but still we can brain storm and think of what possibly could be.   Would this make things better.  Maybe?  Note my combination is just one possible scenario.  Note it this also could be done with a 3 year rotation.

 

The Scholar

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Just throwing out a new paradigm.  Im thinking outside the box.   Here's an idea and looking for open minded opinions.  Good or bad.

Here's my idea: Rotating regionals.   Instead of having the same two sectionals going to the same Regional which is current state,  the new idea is to have every other year, move four of the sectional teams  or rotate to a different regional.  The benefit of this would be diversity and variety in the teams wrestling.  Consistently, there's a complaint that some regionals are stacked while others are soft.  Is it fair for the teams going to the tough regional to always have a tougher road to state while other teams get through Regionals easily?    So under the new plan, one year a team could hypothetically get the easier path with the weaker regional while the next year you have to go through a tougher one.    Regional locations can stay the same and four of the sections would always go to the same regional, but every other year there's a different sectional coming.    There's some pros and cons, including maybe a little more travel in some cases.  But this wouldn't be a monumental change and could be easily implemented.

 

Ill use the teams from the East Chicago SS to represent one of the possible combinations of rotation.

 

Current State  Year 1 (Odd numbered years)

Crown Point = Crown Point and Laporte

Penn =  Mishawka and Plymouth

Hobart = Portage and East Chicago

Logansport = Twin Lakes and Lafayette Jefferson

 

Proposed Change Year 2 (even numbered years)

Crown Point = Crown Point and Lafayette Jefferson

Penn =Mishawaka and East Chicago

Hobart=  Portage and Laporte

Logansport= Twin Lakes and Plymouth

 

Anyway,  I understand in wrestling formats, there is rarely a change and is very difficult to get inertia to change with the IHSAA and the coaches association,  but still we can brain storm and think of what possibly could be.   Would this make things better.  Maybe?  Note my combination is just one possible scenario.  Note it this also could be done with a 3 year rotation.

 

The Scholar

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

Makes too much sense=Horrible idea to IHSAA

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I like the creativity of the idea and the outline of how to do it.  Honestly, I just don't see the benefit of it.  A team's lineup is different each year, so facing off against different regional opponents would have negligible effects year to year.  But, I support you thinking outside the box - keep throwing ideas out there to improve our sport!!

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22 minutes ago, base said:

I like the creativity of the idea and the outline of how to do it.  Honestly, I just don't see the benefit of it.  A team's lineup is different each year, so facing off against different regional opponents would have negligible effects year to year.  But, I support you thinking outside the box - keep throwing ideas out there to improve our sport!!

You make the point that a teams lineup is different each year,   but if you look at rankings or genius ratings from year to year,  there is an amazing amount of consistency in dominance of the top teams.    Look at Maligned's Quota ratio for each Regional for the last 5 years,  and its really amazing how very little variability there is year to year.   The weak Regionals stay weak and the strong regionals are always strong.   How many straight years has EMD won their regional?  And every year they have a different lineup.  Brownsburg,  Cathedral,   Perry Meridian have been perennial top 10.   With this plan, every other year, half the teams in the same regional will avoid the dominant blue bloods and maybe somebody new might have a shot at winning one,  well at least every other year.   I think a little change might make things more interesting.  I bet some coaches out there would be happy about avoiding EMD, Cathedral every other year. 

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20 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Just throwing out a new paradigm.  Im thinking outside the box.   Here's an idea and looking for open minded opinions.  Good or bad.

Here's my idea: Rotating regionals.   Instead of having the same two sectionals going to the same Regional which is current state,  the new idea is to have every other year, move four of the sectional teams  or rotate to a different regional.  The benefit of this would be diversity and variety in the teams wrestling.  Consistently, there's a complaint that some regionals are stacked while others are soft.  Is it fair for the teams going to the tough regional to always have a tougher road to state while other teams get through Regionals easily?    So under the new plan, one year a team could hypothetically get the easier path with the weaker regional while the next year you have to go through a tougher one.    Regional locations can stay the same and four of the sections would always go to the same regional, but every other year there's a different sectional coming.    There's some pros and cons, including maybe a little more travel in some cases.  But this wouldn't be a monumental change and could be easily implemented.

 

Ill use the teams from the East Chicago SS to represent one of the possible combinations of rotation.

 

Current State  Year 1 (Odd numbered years)

Crown Point = Crown Point and Laporte

Penn =  Mishawka and Plymouth

Hobart = Portage and East Chicago

Logansport = Twin Lakes and Lafayette Jefferson

 

Proposed Change Year 2 (even numbered years)

Crown Point = Crown Point and Lafayette Jefferson

Penn =Mishawaka and East Chicago

Hobart=  Portage and Laporte

Logansport= Twin Lakes and Plymouth

 

Anyway,  I understand in wrestling formats, there is rarely a change and is very difficult to get inertia to change with the IHSAA and the coaches association,  but still we can brain storm and think of what possibly could be.   Would this make things better.  Maybe?  Note my combination is just one possible scenario.  Note it this also could be done with a 3 year rotation.

 

The Scholar

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

This is too fun and interesting to happen. 

Travel makes it harder, but if Regionals are only three rounds, you could start at noon and make that easy too. 

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34 minutes ago, bbulldog152 said:

The issue I see is in season scheduling. I know you top programs wrestle top programs not matter what so it won't affect them but I know I worked our schedule to fit in our regional opponents and it would complicate things if we were always changing regionals.

I can see scheduling as many sectional opponents as possible to create head to head matchups for seeding.   But what purpose does wrestling regional opponents accomplish?   Maybe you might schedule with the exception that there somewhat regionally close to you, but doesn't affect that much.    Also,  look at it this way.   If you look at regional opponents over a two year span, you would have a large pool of regional opponents to choose from.

 

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1 hour ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

I can see scheduling as many sectional opponents as possible to create head to head matchups for seeding.   But what purpose does wrestling regional opponents accomplish?   Maybe you might schedule with the exception that there somewhat regionally close to you, but doesn't affect that much.    Also,  look at it this way.   If you look at regional opponents over a two year span, you would have a large pool of regional opponents to choose from.

 

I like seeing regional opponents throughout the year to give my guys a measuring stick for what they might see that 2nd weekend of the state series. It also usually helps give a common opponent against any sectional opponents that we don't get to see throughout the year due to scheduling or injuries.

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1 hour ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

I can see scheduling as many sectional opponents as possible to create head to head matchups for seeding.   But what purpose does wrestling regional opponents accomplish?   Maybe you might schedule with the exception that there somewhat regionally close to you, but doesn't affect that much.    Also,  look at it this way.   If you look at regional opponents over a two year span, you would have a large pool of regional opponents to choose from.

 

Once again for your better programs this isn't as big of a deal but for the programs where semisate qualifiers is big accomplishment it helps to be familiar with the other teams that feed in. As stated above it can also help with common opponents in event of injuries and round Robin situations. And maybe I'm just looking out for what's but for my program.

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I know the higher amount of travel is a factor,  but I don't think it would be that much more travel.

 

For perspective here's current state and possible rotation combination for the New Castle SS.  I tried to match up with the next most optimal regional distance to shorten miles.

 

New Castle's Regionals Current state (odd years)

North Montgomery= Crawfordsville, Frankfort

Pendleton Heights = Elwood,  Lawrence Central

Perry Meridian = Southport, Shelbyville

Richmond =  Tri, South Dearborn

 

NC's Proposed regionals in (even years)

 

North Montgomery- Crawfordsville, Lawrence Central  

Pendleton Heights- Elwood, Frankfort

Perry Meridian- Southport, South Dearborn

Richmond-  Tri, Shelbyville

 

Here's a rough estimate of each traveling sectionals increased Mileage ( Delta of miles from former regional to new regional

Frankfort  Distance to North Montgomery=  33 Miles  Frankfort to Pendleton Heights =  50 Miles  Delta =17 miles increase

Lawrence Central to Pendleton Heights = 24 Miles   Lawrence Central to North Montgomery = 57 miles=  Delta = 33 miles increase

Shelbyville to Perry Meridian HS = 30 Miles   Shelbyville to Richmond HS = 62 Miles  Delta=  32 miles increase

South Dearborn to Richmond = 63 Miles    South Dearborn to Shelbyville HS= 66 Miles Delta = 3 Miles increase

 

Now each high school would have there own travel distance increase or maybe decrease based on the new regional,  for a quick SWAG, I used the distance from sectional to regional to give us a general idea on the travel increase.

 

Generally,  teams in the worst case scenario will be traveling a half hour to 45 minutes more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

I know the higher amount of travel is a factor,  but I don't think it would be that much more travel.

 

For perspective here's current state and possible rotation combination for the New Castle SS.  I tried to match up with the next most optimal regional distance to shorten miles.

 

New Castle's Regionals Current state (odd years)

North Montgomery= Crawfordsville, Frankfort

Pendleton Heights = Elwood,  Lawrence Central

Perry Meridian = Southport, Shelbyville

Richmond =  Tri, South Dearborn

 

NC's Proposed regionals in (even years)

 

North Montgomery- Crawfordsville, Lawrence Central  

Pendleton Heights- Elwood, Frankfort

Perry Meridian- Southport, South Dearborn

Richmond-  Tri, Shelbyville

 

Here's a rough estimate of each traveling sectionals increased Mileage ( Delta of miles from former regional to new regional

Frankfort  Distance to North Montgomery=  33 Miles  Frankfort to Pendleton Heights =  50 Miles  Delta =17 miles increase

Lawrence Central to Pendleton Heights = 24 Miles   Lawrence Central to North Montgomery = 57 miles=  Delta = 33 miles increase

Shelbyville to Perry Meridian HS = 30 Miles   Shelbyville to Richmond HS = 62 Miles  Delta=  32 miles increase

South Dearborn to Richmond = 63 Miles    South Dearborn to Shelbyville HS= 66 Miles Delta = 3 Miles increase

 

Now each high school would have there own travel distance increase or maybe decrease based on the new regional,  for a quick SWAG, I used the distance from sectional to regional to give us a general idea on the travel increase.

 

Generally,  teams in the worst case scenario will be traveling a half hour to 45 minutes more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That means Frankfort’s increase in distance is 52%,

Lawrence Central’s increase in distance is 138%, and Shelbyville’s increase in distance is 107%.  And those are probably just averages since they are based on regional sites.  For some specific schools, the deltas are probably bigger.  I think having to drive 2 or 3 times as far would be considered a big drawback for some people.

 

There is a reason for calling them “regionals”.  The IHSAA tries to keep teams in their own region to reduce travel.  That advantage might be more important in years when we have more severe winter than we’ve had this year ... so far.  

 

You might note that there are topics on here where teams complain because they now have to drive further for sectionals than they used to.  I would assume all those schools would be up in arms over your proposal.

 

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31 minutes ago, piscis1956 said:

That means Frankfort’s increase in distance is 52%,

Lawrence Central’s increase in distance is 138%, and Shelbyville’s increase in distance is 107%.  And those are probably just averages since they are based on regional sites.  For some specific schools, the deltas are probably bigger.  I think having to drive 2 or 3 times as far would be considered a big drawback for some people.

 

There is a reason for calling them “regionals”.  The IHSAA tries to keep teams in their own region to reduce travel.  That advantage might be more important in years when we have more severe winter than we’ve had this year ... so far.  

 

You might note that there are topics on here where teams complain because they now have to drive further for sectionals than they used to.  I would assume all those schools would be up in arms over your proposal.

 

Yes the Frankfort increase is 52% or just 17 miles,  with a slow moving school bus that's roughly 20 minutes there and 20 minutes back.    I heard some sectionals started an hour late because track wrestling didn't work this weekend.  So put it in perspective.   Somebody, would poo poo it because it takes an hour more every two years.  Come on.

And each IHSAA region is some arbitrarily drawn line which for some reason is different for every sport.  Everybody identifies with a region because the IHSAA has been doing the same thing for forever.  

 

I also bet some coaches wouldn't want to change because Regional X has a great hospitality room.

  

 

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3 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Yes the Frankfort increase is 52% or just 17 miles,  with a slow moving school bus that's roughly 20 minutes there and 20 minutes back.    I heard some sectionals started an hour late because track wrestling didn't work this weekend.  So put it in perspective.   Somebody, would poo poo it because it takes an hour more every two years.  Come on.

And each IHSAA region is some arbitrarily drawn line which for some reason is different for every sport.  Everybody identifies with a region because the IHSAA has been doing the same thing for forever.  

 

I also bet some coaches wouldn't want to change because Regional X has a great hospitality room.

  

 

There’s also schools that are closer. We travel to Frankfort then to Crawfordsville. Pendleton is 5 minutes up I-69 from us and 7 from Fishers. In our case, that’s over an hour in time SAVINGS by rotating. 
 

not sure I’m for it but I wouldn’t complain personally. Now if we could discuss sectional competitive balance again, I’d be very interested....

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5 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

I know the higher amount of travel is a factor,  but I don't think it would be that much more travel.

 

For perspective here's current state and possible rotation combination for the New Castle SS.  I tried to match up with the next most optimal regional distance to shorten miles.

 

New Castle's Regionals Current state (odd years)

North Montgomery= Crawfordsville, Frankfort

Pendleton Heights = Elwood,  Lawrence Central

Perry Meridian = Southport, Shelbyville

Richmond =  Tri, South Dearborn

 

NC's Proposed regionals in (even years)

 

North Montgomery- Crawfordsville, Lawrence Central  

Pendleton Heights- Elwood, Frankfort

Perry Meridian- Southport, South Dearborn

Richmond-  Tri, Shelbyville

 

Here's a rough estimate of each traveling sectionals increased Mileage ( Delta of miles from former regional to new regional

Frankfort  Distance to North Montgomery=  33 Miles  Frankfort to Pendleton Heights =  50 Miles  Delta =17 miles increase

Lawrence Central to Pendleton Heights = 24 Miles   Lawrence Central to North Montgomery = 57 miles=  Delta = 33 miles increase

Shelbyville to Perry Meridian HS = 30 Miles   Shelbyville to Richmond HS = 62 Miles  Delta=  32 miles increase

South Dearborn to Richmond = 63 Miles    South Dearborn to Shelbyville HS= 66 Miles Delta = 3 Miles increase

 

Now each high school would have there own travel distance increase or maybe decrease based on the new regional,  for a quick SWAG, I used the distance from sectional to regional to give us a general idea on the travel increase.

 

Generally,  teams in the worst case scenario will be traveling a half hour to 45 minutes more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do note that the south Dearborn sectional you have listed rotates with Franklin county... Franklin county is 30 miles from Richmond and 77 from Perry meridian. South Dearborn I'm pretty sure is the farthest school from Richmond with union county being 14 miles.

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17 minutes ago, mikemorgan said:

I’d rather see regionals combined with semi state with full wrestlebacks.  Example is 106 new castle.

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That would be best case scenario and from the wrestling perspective makes a ton of sense.   You would get legitimately get your top 4 out of semi-state,  you would cut down the state series by a week and entertainment value would be great.  Indiana state series is way to long.   It makes sense,  but since it doesn't fit into the IHSAA format of  -(Sec, regionals,  SS, State) it will never fly.   I also this would have to be a two day tournament which is fine,  but IHSAA would never condone kids missing school for wrestling.  No problem in any other state though?

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29 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

I believe the IHSAA would be fine with a three-week state series. However, with 300+ teams it is extremely difficult to do.

Ive heard  people say the best way would be to do a two day tournament and combine regionals and sectionals into one tournament.  Benefits would be : You could eliminate the regional day and make a 3 week tournament,   you would get the true placement  benefit of wrestlebacks all the way to SS,  you would eliminate a lot of redundant wrestling as a lot of guys in sectionals wrestle each other in regionals,   you would solve the pigtail problem as everybody would have double elimination chance

 

The only compromise would be is the 1st day would happen on a Friday and kids and coaches would miss a day of school.

You would use 24 or 32 man brackets,  but largest brackets would be or 23 wrestlers in rare case of no forfeits.   I suppose this also would be a negative for small schools as that is there  moment to shine as it would be much more difficult for them to win champions individually or team wise in the larger format.

 

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3 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Ive heard  people say the best way would be to do a two day tournament and combine regionals and sectionals into one tournament.  Benefits would be : You could eliminate the regional day and make a 3 week tournament,   you would get the true placement  benefit of wrestlebacks all the way to SS,  you would eliminate a lot of redundant wrestling as a lot of guys in sectionals wrestle each other in regionals,   you would solve the pigtail problem as everybody would have double elimination chance

 

The only compromise would be is the 1st day would happen on a Friday and kids and coaches would miss a day of school.

You would use 24 or 32 man brackets,  but largest brackets would be or 23 wrestlers in rare case of no forfeits.   I suppose this also would be a negative for small schools as that is there  moment to shine as it would be much more difficult for them to win champions individually or team wise in the larger format.

 

Yes there would need to be one of the events being two-days.

 

The best option would be to combine the current sectionals that feed into a regional for a SUPER SUPER Sectional. That would alleviate as much travel as possible especially on a Friday night.

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1 hour ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

That would be best case scenario and from the wrestling perspective makes a ton of sense.   You would get legitimately get your top 4 out of semi-state,  you would cut down the state series by a week and entertainment value would be great.  Indiana state series is way to long.   It makes sense,  but since it doesn't fit into the IHSAA format of  -(Sec, regionals,  SS, State) it will never fly.   I also this would have to be a two day tournament which is fine,  but IHSAA would never condone kids missing school for wrestling.  No problem in any other state though?

 

I believe it is the State Legislature that might not condone missing a whole day of school for wrestling.

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11 minutes ago, piscis1956 said:

 

I believe it is the State Legislature that might not condone missing a whole day of school for wrestling.

Really??   You might be correct. I always wondered what conservative entity dictated this.  If true,  was that the majority opinion of the state legislature 40 years ago, 20 years ago or now.  

 

Just for perspective,  Indiana is one of the few states that restricts missing school for high school sports.   I used to live in Ohio and they have a 3 day state tournament.  Kids miss Thursday and Friday. I grew up in Kansas and we had went to two  2 day tournaments and the state tournament was a 2 day tournament.   So we missed 3 days in the season.  I had a son wrestle in Missouri,   multiple two day tournaments including state.

 

 

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