Referees in the tournament

[AJ]

Some coaches may also vote for officials that they remember from semistate or state, or that they have heard is really good.  Trying to ensure that top officials get enough votes.

[Y2CJ41]

3 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

One concern I have with the rating system is that the coaches get the officials mixed up sometimes and give a rating to the wrong person.   Id like to quote "Little Vito".  He got 29 votes and only had involvement with 9 of those schools this year.   BigBlue02 mentioned  he had votes from schools he didn't work this year never had worked.

 

The Scholar also does some officiating believe it or not.   I got 29 ratings votes this year.  (Note I didn't get any 1s) Yea.   

Here's some some of my stats.    Of the  29 ratings from different schools I received,   I only worked matches with 11 of those schools this year (JV or Varsity).

I just counted all the schools that I did see this year and I counted 40 schools.   I might of missed one or two.   But of those 40 schools,  I only got 11 ratings votes.   So only 27.5% of the coaches voted.   Also 18 of the 29 ratings, I had no matches with this year or 62%.

Also,  some of those schools could be ratings  with memories of prior seasons.  But  12 out of those 18 votes, I have never officiated with those schools in prior years either.   Obviously there's some confusion.   Some of the more experienced well know refs probably get more accurate  results since the coaches know them better.

 

In dual matches, we sign books that might help the coaches remember who we are,  but a lot of times they probably don't always remember the officials names. 

 

I was thinking of an idea.   Maybe print some business cards and give that to the coaches after the match.   I wonder if the coaches would appreciate this?   

   

 

 

Tyrone Wilson used to have a sticker with his picture on it that he'd put in the book when he was starting out. It is a great idea for the newer or lesser known refs. It's also a reminder that when it comes time to vote to vote for that guy.

 

For good or bad I know a lot of refs and even ask the senior ones who others are if I don't know. Coaches need to be a little more proactive to get the better refs to advance. 

[Y2CJ41]

The coaches vote has merit, but also comes with some negative affects. I know of coaches who said their AD did their voting and they never knew about it. I have had an AD(not currently an AD) that would change the coaches votes. Those are just two experiences I have heard. I think there should also be a way for coaches to only vote for officials they have seen within the past 3 years. 

 

Personally I like Blane's idea on advancing the best officials from sectional based on voting and such. The wrestlers that are wrestling the best advance, why not the officials that are officiating the best advance? Sectionals and such are basically "seeded" for officials so barring something horrific you should still get the better ones to go on.

[lemercad]

1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

The coaches vote has merit, but also comes with some negative affects. I know of coaches who said their AD did their voting and they never knew about it. I have had an AD(not currently an AD) that would change the coaches votes. Those are just two experiences I have heard. I think there should also be a way for coaches to only vote for officials they have seen within the past 3 years. 

 

Personally I like Blane's idea on advancing the best officials from sectional based on voting and such. The wrestlers that are wrestling the best advance, why not the officials that are officiating the best advance? Sectionals and such are basically "seeded" for officials so barring something horrific you should still get the better ones to go on.

I love this idea. top two refs from each sectional(4) get to regionals, top three refs from reach regional(4) go to semi state, and top three of each semi state(12) go to state finals(12). It will def eliminate the bad ratings some referees do get which handicaps them from moving up and doing a State Finals.

[runner-up]

1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

 I think there should also be a way for coaches to only vote for officials they have seen within the past 3 years. 

 

1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Tyrone Wilson used to have a sticker with his picture on it that he'd put in the book when he was starting out. It is a great idea for the newer or lesser known refs.

 

Tyrone is a smart dude. I worked with him after my first full year of officiating and he helped me with my mechanics and help me mentally slow down matches. He could have let me know about his trick for getting recognized.

 

I like the idea of only voting based off the previous 3 years. IHSAA should be able to keep that data in myihsaa and blackout schools you haven't seen based off of your reported schedule. Not sure how much work it would be to set that up, but it is something I'd think their systems people could work out. It would also reward the officials who are more active as they would be able to get more votes from seeing more schools over that 3 year period and wouldn't have a dramatic impact if the took a lighter schedule during one of those three years (like only being able to vote for who you saw during that year).

 

Advancing the best refs from the sectionals is an interesting take as well. I'm not sure exactly how that would play out, but it seems like a system that could be worked out potentially so long as you evenly distribute your officiating talent throughout sectionals (which I know they try to do now, but it would be higher stakes if you had 3 or 4 pretty good officials in one sectional).

[Y2CJ41]

21 minutes ago, runner-up said:

I like the idea of only voting based off the previous 3 years. IHSAA should be able to keep that data in myihsaa and blackout schools you haven't seen based off of your reported schedule. Not sure how much work it would be to set that up, but it is something I'd think their systems people could work out. It would also reward the officials who are more active as they would be able to get more votes from seeing more schools over that 3 year period and wouldn't have a dramatic impact if the took a lighter schedule during one of those three years (like only being able to vote for who you saw during that year).

On top of that it would be easier for coaches to vote. There are hundreds and hundreds of refs to vote for. I'd much rather have the list narrowed down to ones I have seen. Heck, I saw names that I didn't know they were refs! It would make it easier to vote for refs if the list is narrowed down to 100 that you have seen recently.

[Coach Brobst]

One thing I think most coaches would agree upon is that trying to get and remember names of officials we had at big tourneys or out of town events is very difficult when we’re busy filling out weigh in forms, preparing wrestlers for matches, etc; to get everyone’s name and commit it to memory.

Three times this year, we had officials that were exceptional (two exceptionally good and one exceptionally bad) and I tried to make a point of learning their names, and I forgot them every time. I know the guys who do our area tourneys and work with us at duals, but when we go outside the area, it’s hard to remember people so I’m sure I didn’t evaluate several I had during the season.

 

Point is: I’m sure I’m not the only one who can’t remember every officials name and sometimes those profiles don’t have pics to jog my memory/l.

 

Solution: list what events they worked that year on the profile, require them to put pics on the profile, will help with reminding us who they are.

 

Secondary solution, probably less popular: evaluate officials after each event when it’s fresh in mind rather than at the end of the year. There are obvious drawbacks but also obvious advantages to this. 
 

Whatever is done, I believe having people vote on 100’s of officials, most of whom they do not know, is not helpful.

 

[littlevito]

A lot of good ideas here. Definitely something that the different officiating associations and maybe coach's association should bring to the IHSAA. They are able to have all the events that officials so in their myihsaa profile, so it shouldn't be hard to figure out a way to and things to schools that have only officials they would have seen.

[PhillyFanMD]

They need younger referees who can get into position quicker and start calling back points.  There were multiple incidences during state finals weekend where wrestlers had their opponents on their backs and the refs were too told and out of shape to get into position and start swiping for back points.  Some were pinned for 5 seconds+ because the ref was still standing up and not in position to call the pin.

 

Many many incidences

 

[Jim calhoun]

I hate complaining about officials because I feel over all they are great at what they do and I have officiated many years myself. My sons match at 170....other 170 semi final amongst some others I know had some controversy. It’s funny that ive had a few referees apologize about the match saying it was a takedown but time was out. Other refs said it wasn’t a takedown but the time was still not out. They award 2 then after the challenge (which I would have done myself) they change the call. The problem I had is not either ref checked at the table with time keeper how much time their was. I watched the Fielden and Wagner semi as well at 170 and again very similar ending. I heard many people from all over the state talk about the stalling or lack of calls they have ever seen at a state tournament. Of course refs make mistakes and this isn’t to bash refs but more that at the state level make sure you get it right if possible. The second official should not be able to over ride without absolutely knowing the call by the head ref officiating the match has called. I’ve been on both sides of this as a coach and ref. I have not and will not bash the refs because I in no way want to diminish or belittle the state championship won by Mr. Deters. He won and earned the victory. I just hate when so much talk about our state finals is on officials not making calls, or not getting in position etc. I think it re emphasizes my first post on this thread when I started it about the way to get officials isn’t a rotating system.... I’m not a fan of participation trophies. You earn it.....if you get in 10 years in a row you earn it and are voted in. If your a rookie but one of the best you deserve to be in there. Bashing officials will never build it where it needs to be.....but there definately needs to be a change to the system if we want the quality as well as quantity of officials we want. 

[backtothemat]

1 hour ago, Jim calhoun said:

I hate complaining about officials because I feel over all they are great at what they do and I have officiated many years myself. My sons match at 170....other 170 semi final amongst some others I know had some controversy. It’s funny that ive had a few referees apologize about the match saying it was a takedown but time was out. Other refs said it wasn’t a takedown but the time was still not out. They award 2 then after the challenge (which I would have done myself) they change the call. The problem I had is not either ref checked at the table with time keeper how much time their was. I watched the Fielden and Wagner semi as well at 170 and again very similar ending. I heard many people from all over the state talk about the stalling or lack of calls they have ever seen at a state tournament. Of course refs make mistakes and this isn’t to bash refs but more that at the state level make sure you get it right if possible. The second official should not be able to over ride without absolutely knowing the call by the head ref officiating the match has called. I’ve been on both sides of this as a coach and ref. I have not and will not bash the refs because I in no way want to diminish or belittle the state championship won by Mr. Deters. He won and earned the victory. I just hate when so much talk about our state finals is on officials not making calls, or not getting in position etc. I think it re emphasizes my first post on this thread when I started it about the way to get officials isn’t a rotating system.... I’m not a fan of participation trophies. You earn it.....if you get in 10 years in a row you earn it and are voted in. If your a rookie but one of the best you deserve to be in there. Bashing officials will never build it where it needs to be.....but there definately needs to be a change to the system if we want the quality as well as quantity of officials we want. 

There are video reviews, it seems like, in every D1 dual I watch on TV.  Many times because of situations involving timing. That review ability doesn’t exist in our high school system. Not our refs’ fault IMHO. 
 

BTW, Graham is a badass. Good luck at the next, highest level. 

[lemercad]

On 2/25/2020 at 2:24 PM, runner-up said:

The coach voting is an interesting system in practice. In theory it is smart. Coaches feedback is important and should be taken into consideration. But I have also noticed that I get votes from schools I didn’t even know existed.

 

Any ranking (1-5) from a school/coach that hasn’t seen you officiate is a bad vote for a true assessment.

 

I’ve also heard about refs getting repeated bad scores from the same coach for years that is holding a grudge. 

 

Just like wrestlers, officials get better with mat time and experience.

 

If you are a coach still giving a good ref a 1 or a 2 because of a questionable call a decade ago, you are part of the problem. Same goes for if you are giving your buddy a 5 because he has been a great official in the past but maybe his officiating career is on the decline. Base rating off of how they officiate in the present, not the past, and don’t vote for someone you haven’t seen.

 

I think I heard the NCAA had official evaluators, where some of the top older officials rank and assign the younger ones for major tournaments. I wonder if the IHSAA could get feedback from some of the heads of the associations or some of the more seasoned state level officials. Maybe they could also rank the eligible officials and that could be added to the score for evaluation.

 

At the end of the day, the IHSAA’s goal is to crown a state champion—the best wrestler in the state. Shouldn’t we also be working to get the best crew of refs to help in that process?

 

I don’t say this implying the guys there this weekend weren’t the best officials for the job. I know a handful of them and I’d agree they are some of the top officials, much better than myself currently--they are the ones I’ll go to to help get better. But this thread has brought up flaws with the process so I figured I’d offer my take on it and how to maybe improve it.

We will get there someday! 

Edited February 26, 2020 by lemercad
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