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Team State adds 4A UPDATE: 8-8-12-12 teams (the people have spoken)


maligned

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On 1/10/2020 at 9:53 PM, rhayes said:

Love the idea. Makes for a much more competitive tourney at each level, easier to run with 8 man brackets.

 Two adjustments I would like to see. 

1. Private schools are not "community based" teams and as such should be put in 4A automatically. 

2. 3A cut off at 1,800. Puts a more reasonable number of teams in 4A. 

 

I commend the committee for listening and making a change to the previous format. 

 

 

The private school comment is a B.S. statement, I truly hope you're joking. I know of several private schools that can't field a full team much less compete for a 4A state wrestling championship.

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Ok, let me see if I got this straight. The 3a class is getting split so they will go from getting 12 teams at team state to 16 and the 1a and 2a teams will get reduced to 8 teams each. So the one tournament that small schools look forward to is getting harder for them to get in because of the reduced number but easier for big schools. The big schools already have the state tournament to win which the small schools have next to no chance in winning. Just seams silly to me that once again the small schools are getting the short end of the stick. I am also surprised that the 3a schools are ok with this, wont they just be winning a watered down title. Will there be a final match with the 3a champ and the 4a champ so we will know who the real champ is ? Just frustrated I guess. I know I know, just work harder.

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24 minutes ago, Bbarcus08 said:

Why are we moving schools up from 1a to 2a and 2a to 3a? If the problem was mostly 3a bigger schools dominating the class then why not just take the bigger schools out of 3a and make them the new 4a and leave the rest alone

No school is "moving" classes per se. Teams are reclassified every year based on updated enrollment numbers and how many teams have 7+ kids at sectional. Once the 4A schools are removed, the rest of the qualified teams will simply be divided equally into three classes as always. 

Edited by maligned
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2 hours ago, hook and half said:


 

not really sure about bumping up.  I think that cathedral and MD will do so, but doesn’t that knock out  otherwise deserving 4a teams?

 

Schools have always been allowed to choose to be in the biggest class for qualifying if they want. EMD have always been the only ones until Cathedral last year opted in when they fell to 2A size. I'm guessing no others will, but we'll see.

Edited by maligned
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I understand that enrollment numbers change every year so teams move up or down based on numbers of enrollment but based off Y2s team state 4 class projection the enrollment cut off changes for 1A and 2a sending teams like Bremen and southmont up to 2a with the same numbers  but they were classed as 1A this year

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13 minutes ago, Bbarcus08 said:

I understand that enrollment numbers change every year so teams move up or down based on numbers of enrollment but based off Y2s team state 4 class projection the enrollment cut off changes for 1A and 2a sending teams like Bremen and southmont up to 2a with the same numbers  but they were classed as 1A this year

No matter the class system there will always be teams on the bubble of going up or down a class. 

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2 hours ago, boomer said:

Ok, let me see if I got this straight. The 3a class is getting split so they will go from getting 12 teams at team state to 16 and the 1a and 2a teams will get reduced to 8 teams each. So the one tournament that small schools look forward to is getting harder for them to get in because of the reduced number but easier for big schools. The big schools already have the state tournament to win which the small schools have next to no chance in winning. Just seams silly to me that once again the small schools are getting the short end of the stick. I am also surprised that the 3a schools are ok with this, wont they just be winning a watered down title. Will there be a final match with the 3a champ and the 4a champ so we will know who the real champ is ? Just frustrated I guess. I know I know, just work harder.

This is a valid point. No I don’t wanna start another class thread but as it pertains to team state I think it’s spot on. Hopefully I’m just missing something ..

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This just seems to be going in the wrong direction.  Isn't the goal to get the IHSAA to recognize the success of the classed team state tournament and make it a sanctioned IHSAA Team State event again but with classes? All of us who are a part of the sport recognize how great this event is and how awesome it is to find success there, but school administrators and community members who don't closely follow wrestling continue to put the * beside it since it is not IHSAA.  Example, our school's athletic recognition hall has a rule that in order to have a team picture up, you must be IHSAA Regional Champs or better.  We now have two IHSWCA team state runner-up finishes (first losers)  but you would have no idea because they don't have the IHSAA stamp of approval so, there's no photo, banner, or plaque displayed to recognize those teams.  I know this is a specific situation that probably falls more on our school having a poor policy but how great would it be to have this tournament be desirable for adoption by the IHSAA.

 

Following up to that idea.... Why are we reducing the number of teams? I get it that the numbers work with 8 teams in 4 classes which means we have to go from our current amount of 36 to 32, but that seems like taking away any teams will begin to take away fans.  Maybe the thinking is that losing 4 bottom level teams who don't bring many fans won't hurt the attendance very much? I would think that attendance numbers are significantly important to IHSAA for adopting the event ($$$) ? But then again maybe the idea is that by creating the "extra" bigger class that that might accomplish increased attendance? (someone more "in the know" might be able to provide some more input on that perspective with recent attendance numbers?).

 

Aside from attendance though, it seems like every year there is competitive teams missing the cut from our scoring system and then don't get the vote.  Then they put together a really good following season but don't have the chance to compete at team state. Maybe they wouldn't win, but going, having a good performance, and placing high continues to build that community support and recognition.  Cutting down to 8 teams with possibly only 1 vote in spot could cause some deserving strong teams to miss out and puts a whole lot of accountability into the scoring system being used, which does a good job of predicting strong teams the following year but there is exceptions every year that should be wrestling in the coliseum at the beginning of January and aren't (ex: Bluffton this year).  I thought that maybe the move for the tournament would have been to include more teams if anything (maybe not possible for a single day tournament)?  The scoring system seems to do a pretty good job at predicting top teams in the bigger classes but the smaller classes seem to be where competitive teams are left out more often.  Cutting down to eight teams for 1a and 2a seems like a sure fire way to miss deserving teams when we are already missing top teams with 12 teams being there. The IHSAA is already all about full inclusion for the state tournament series, they aren't going to be impressed by a tournament missing successful teams.  

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I think I've followed the IHSAA long enough to confidently say that the IHSAA is nowhere close to making a change to anything close to what we're doing and if they ever do, they'll do it their own way and certainly not copy something a bunch of us came up with. 

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3 hours ago, decbell1 said:

I think I've followed the IHSAA long enough to confidently say that the IHSAA is nowhere close to making a change to anything close to what we're doing and if they ever do, they'll do it their own way and certainly not copy something a bunch of us came up with. 

Can you remind me how all this started? IHSAA cancelled team state and a group of saviors started ihswca team state? 
 

why did IHSAA cancel it in the first place?

 

are they kicking theirselves in the butt after seeing how successful it has become?

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1 hour ago, navy80 said:

Can you remind me how all this started? IHSAA cancelled team state and a group of saviors started ihswca team state? 
 

why did IHSAA cancel it in the first place?

 

are they kicking theirselves in the butt after seeing how successful it has become?

It was canceled by the IHSAA because teams that qualified for regionals or higher chose to hold out several varsity wrestlers that were also in the individual tourney.  The IHSAA didn't like seeing this happen so axed the team series after this happened several times.

 

 

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4 hours ago, nkraus said:

It's correct...Garrett would be a vote in and could potentially not make it?  

He said..."that means one of Bellmont or Garrett wouldn't have been voted in" as if one of the two would have definitely been left out--when in fact Bellmont would have automatically been in and Garrett would have had the very compelling profile that you had and almost certainly been voted in just as you were.

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I have no problem with the change with the exception on how they are divided where basically 25% of the 4A schools will "make" Team State, while the other three classes will have around 13% of the schools "make" their respective Team State. If the change is made why not divide the classes up equally as in the past to ensure the percent of teams participating are the same in each class. This change to me clearly is favoring large schools.

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48 minutes ago, WoodJC82 said:

I have no problem with the change with the exception on how they are divided where basically 25% of the 4A schools will "make" Team State, while the other three classes will have around 13% of the schools "make" their respective Team State. If the change is made why not divide the classes up equally as in the past to ensure the percent of teams participating are the same in each class. This change to me clearly is favoring large schools.

Several of the 4A schools have two varsity teams. Wouldn't that change the percentages? 

 

We hear from the smaller school guys of how hard and disadvantaged it is to wrestle at smaller schools. To be honest, its tough at the bigger schools too. There are tons of guys that would be varsity 1 at 90 percent of smaller schools. I know that the class wrestling debate is alive and well on another thread. But.. if we crunch the numbers, even with about half the schools making team state in the other classes (compared to 4A). As an individual, you may have a better chance of wrestling in this event at the smaller schools. Can we get a breakdown of actual wrestlers per each class (1A-4A), and the percentage of those wrestlers that have the opportunity to wrestle in this event? 

Edited by Mattyb
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13 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

Several of the 4A schools have two varsity teams. Wouldn't that change the percentages? 

 

We here from the smaller school guys of how hard and disadvantaged it is to wrestle at smaller schools. To be honest, its tough at the bigger schools too. There are tons of guys that would be varsity 1 at 90 percent of smaller schools. I know that the class wrestling debate is alive and well on another thread. But.. if we crunch the numbers, even with about half the schools making team state in the other classes. As an individual, you may have a better chance of wrestling in this event at the smaller schools.

But this is not an individual event...it is a team event, also the argument has been to grow the support more success is needed for the smaller schools which may appeal to the student body, generating interest which in effect may increasing numbers. Dividing in this manner would seem to not change much for the smaller schools while at the same time increase inclusion of larger schools.

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38 minutes ago, WoodJC82 said:

But this is not an individual event...it is a team event, also the argument has been to grow the support more success is needed for the smaller schools which may appeal to the student body, generating interest which in effect may increasing numbers. Dividing in this manner would seem to not change much for the smaller schools while at the same time increase inclusion of larger schools.

I understand... but I would like to know the numbers. I think they will show that you have a better chance of being a part of a team state championship, if you wrestle at a smaller school (even when with a larger percentage of bigger schools making the field). There is something to be said about that (IMO). 
 

Everyone acts like wrestling at big schools is all rainbows and unicorns. The fact is that tons of really good wrestlers never crack the the line up or get the exposure or “success” that many are trying to get for the smaller schools. 

Edited by Mattyb
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3 hours ago, Mattyb said:

@maligned Do the semi states have multipliers like sectionals and regionals? If not.. why don't they? Clearly, not all semistates are equal. 

Sectionals and regionals have been on a "category" or quota system for going on 5 years (you get credit for somewhere between 2 to 6 regional qualifiers or semi-state qualifiers instead of exactly 4 depending on your strength). When we run the math for the different semi-states, it always comes out that there are roughly 3.6 to 3.8 state level guys per weight, on average, from FW while the others are each in the 4.0 to 4.3 range consistently.

 

FW has never been below 3.5 and no other semi-state has ever been above 4.5, so there's not enough evidence to suggest we need to go to a quota for semi-state where certain ones get credit for 5 state qualifiers per weight or others only 3 since we're working with whole numbers.

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It was canceled by the IHSAA because teams that qualified for regionals or higher chose to hold out several varsity wrestlers that were also in the individual tourney.  The IHSAA didn't like seeing this happen so axed the team series after this happened several times.

 

So could fans do this to the NBA. Cause that is all they do!!  NBA means less and less these days!  Lets axe it!!  Thanks

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