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How about these stall happy region refs?


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19 hours ago, ontherise219 said:

While I don’t agree with every call, I didn’t see any bias. Cathedral won by like 50 points so I doubt there was a bias against them. 
top 3 

cathedral, CP and perry 

also I am not sure how many refs are from the region? 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Indiana

 

we can’t claim south bend as the region

Edited by WRFan
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18 hours ago, TeamInjuryTime07 said:

It’s great we have so many expert officials out there in the stands. During the coaches meeting they said they need more officials you should grab a whistle and some arm bands and show them how it’s done

Edited by WRFan
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9 hours ago, Slam126 said:

Because Cathedral won the tourney & Perry Meridian got 3rd, there was no bias in calls against them, as central Indiana schools, throughout the tourney? Great argument.
Cathedral & Perry wrestled well and finished in the top 3 DESPITE the officials robbing them of points & matches. In the placement matches, the entire crowd reacted to poor calls in many matches. Truly sad for the kids that were affected.

Maybe I didn’t see the match/matches you are upset about I thought the officials did a pretty good job all weekend. But you obviously have a bias as you feel like 2 of the schools who did the best were being “robbed” of points. The officials there have done state finals and semi states. 
 

I guess which match are you speaking on and I can give a more direct opinion of the officials on that mat. But to say the entire tournament was poorly officiated is untrue  

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9 hours ago, Slam126 said:

As info, I officiated for 11 yrs & coached for 18 yrs. I paid my dues and know the sport and the rules. Awarding points, then taking them away in many matches, just shouldn’t happen. In several instances, it was cut & dry. Waving & indicating near fall & that back exposure was evident several times, awarding the points, then taking them away just because the opposing coach argued the call is inexcusable. 
Hitting a kid with a stalling point with 1-2 seconds to go in the match to tie the score or to cause that kid a loss is inexcusable. The crowd in attendance knows which matches these were, because the crowd made it known with negative reactions. This just shouldn’t happen. These are kids who are working hard to do their best, and those are adults/officials that are using their “authority” to change outcomes.


Well you are clearly talking about Garrett vs Cathedral for 3rd at 106. Bottom line is Henry was counting near fall on our kid when his back was not past 90 degrees as they were in a scramble situation . Our head coach questioned this and asked for the second refs opinion and he determined there was no near fall. This is nothing uncommon as we had this happen to us at 113 the previous round vs Goshen. The match was a nail biter  and we were happy to come out with a win in double OT. I can guarantee you Coach Seltzer would have questioned the call if the situation was reversed. Both kids wrestled their butts off and it was a great match.  
 

The issue I have is the post match as you were on the floor yelling obscenities at me and Kraus right in front of our kid. 
 

Cathedral is a great program with great coaches and I have nothing but respect for what they have accomplished. It’s sad to see a parent act like that and tarnish a great tournament like the Al Smith.

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Let me start by saying, Indiana officials as a whole are much better than many surrounding states. That’s pretty easy to say going to Regional or National tournaments with officials from multiple states. One of the reasons that Indiana is so good is a very real attempt to be consistent throughout the state however there are some nuances in different areas. The region typically is pretty aggressive with stall calls compared to Indy or down south. It probably appears worse to Indy guys because Indy has soooo many officials (some really good and some newbies) making consistency within Indy a little harder and it just seems too aggressive when you see refs from NW Indiana that call stalling without hesitation. 
 

Good or bad kids and coaches have to adjust and wrestle through it. 

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10 hours ago, Slam126 said:

As info, I officiated for 11 yrs & coached for 18 yrs. I paid my dues and know the sport and the rules. Awarding points, then taking them away in many matches, just shouldn’t happen. In several instances, it was cut & dry. Waving & indicating near fall & that back exposure was evident several times, awarding the points, then taking them away just because the opposing coach argued the call is inexcusable. 
Hitting a kid with a stalling point with 1-2 seconds to go in the match to tie the score or to cause that kid a loss is inexcusable. The crowd in attendance knows which matches these were, because the crowd made it known with negative reactions. This just shouldn’t happen. These are kids who are working hard to do their best, and those are adults/officials that are using their “authority” to change outcomes.

In your 11 years officiating did you ever hear a negative reaction from a crowd when you thought you made the right call??

Im not trying to say that they made every call perfectly in the tournament. I get upset about calls from officials every weekend. I think in that group some are better than others but overall I didn’t think the officiating was as bad as you stated. My main point was most of those guys in that gym are getting up there in age and probably would love to be sitting in the stands watching great wrestling while some younger people join the officiating ranks, but for some reason people aren’t beating down the door to walk out there and officiate and get ridiculed on the internet for the calls they made. 
Lastly if a kid is stalling it doesn’t matter  what the score is or how much time is on the clock. 1 minute into the match or 2 seconds left

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As an outsider, not rooting for any team just there watching wrestling, I thought the officiating was like any typical officiating at any other tourney. There were some head scratching calls, but I’ve seen those same calls at every tourney, it being here in the region or down in central Indiana. Nobody is perfect but those officials I thought did a helluva job. The only call I will always hate a ref make is double stalling. I absolutely hate that call especially in a heavyweight match, someone is pushing the pace, someone is making attempts. You will never see me agree with a double stall call. 

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20 hours ago, RaiderColfax said:

http://www.ihsaa.org/Officials/Licensing/tabid/572/Default.aspx
 

By all means if you can do a better job go apply. 

God, I’ve always hated this response so much. You don’t have to be a chef to know your food got burnt. You don’t have to be a dentist to know if something is wrong with your tooth. And you don’t have to be a referee to see a bad call is being made.

 

Edit: This is not to say we need to get on a message board to ridicule refs for every bad call; they’re human, it happens, none of us could get it perfect every time. But you don’t have to be a certified referee to spot bad calls.

Edited by Caleb Spires
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46 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

We need more double stall calls, it always initiates a flurry of action from both competitors.

I'm a big fan of starting each and every match with the double stall call. Guarantees action the remaining 5:59 of the match. 

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35 minutes ago, Caleb Spires said:

God, I’ve always hated this response so much. You don’t have to be a chef to know your food got burnt. You don’t have to be a dentist to know if something is wrong with your tooth. And you don’t have to be a referee to see a bad call is being made.

 

Edit: This is not to say we need to get on a message board to ridicule refs for every bad call; they’re human, it happens, none of us could get it perfect every time. But you don’t have to be a certified referee to spot bad calls.

Generally I agree with you on the response “well why don’t you just get your license” but getting out on the mat to officiate and seeing how difficult it can be gives you a little more appreciation to the ref. 

Edited by Rookies03
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I don't post often but when I do and there may be opposing views I post my name so there is no confusion where my opinion is coming from.  This is Steve Sandefer Sr.  Yes my son is the current head coach at Mishawaka, but other than that I am not an official administrator or coach at Mishawaka.  I proudly support our community, school and team.  I love wrestling and try to positively promote the sport at all levels....not just self serving to our own program.  As such I do have some disappointment and contention to see such negative comments regarding individuals within a profession that give so much to support our sport of wrestling.  The officiating crew that worked the Al Smith are top notch gentlemen that have given many many years of service to this sport.  Many of those being criticized openly on social media are Hall of Fame individuals that have literally been involved in promoting this sport most of their lives.

We will soon be reaching a crisis situation in our State if we are not able to recruit and develop young officials that will shortly be NEEDED to replace these lifelong veterans.  There is simply no way we can do this with the attitude displayed on social media by a few individuals that didn't have a match go their way this weekend.

 

To the simple fan or parent I can with almost 100% certainty guarantee that in the coach's meeting prior to the first match that this crew of officials explained exactly how stalling was going to be called.  Most likely with examples for each situation.  I can also assure you that 32 teams of coaches relayed this information to their wrestlers.  But lets face it....we are still dealing with high school kids.  They are still going to back up, play the outside edge, not circle in, lay on their stomachs no matter how many times a coach yells "UP", ride the hips while controlling on top without moving side to side.  The philosophy is increased action.  I get it....the call does not always go your way...but to get on a public forum and call out an entire crew for bias, call out the tournament director for being at fault, calling out a Hall of Fame Coach and official by name.....there is in my OPINION no place in this sport that allows for positive to come from that action.  

 

If you are a wrestler on a team, a coach, a parent, an alumni of a program or just a fan...you have a responsibility to REPRESENT your program with the dignity and character your program deserves.  Again IMO that cannot be done by casting shadows over others in our sport that selflessly have given their dedication and time to simply give YOUR kids the opportunities that are necessary for them to compete in this sport.  Also keep in mind that in particular to the Al Smith Invitational...the key word is invitational.  It has always been an honor to be a team that is invited and Mishawaka considers many factors when extending those invitations.  This year was no exception and may have been the best overall field ever.  If you have valid concerns that you feel can make this a better tournament...by all means...use the proper channels and communicate that with your coaches and Athletic Departments to relay those concerns to Coach Sandefer and his Athletic Department.  Negative feelings in the heat of the moment simply shared on social media doesn't really solve anything or even make you feel better if you are honest.

 

Thankful for the support of our Superintendent and School Board as a few were in attendance, our Athletic Dept, Officiating Crew and table workers both days.  Our announcers Mike & Mike...Mike Reiser in the Cave and Mike Kensinger in the big boy gym.  Coaches, team, parents, fans & MHS Alum for helping to make this another great Al Smith!!  Remember I am just a FAN so don't hold my views against those that are working hard everyday for your wrestlers.  POSITIVELY PROMOTE THE SPORT.

Steve Sandefer Sr.

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11 minutes ago, SharkBit said:

I don't post often but when I do and there may be opposing views I post my name so there is no confusion where my opinion is coming from.  This is Steve Sandefer Sr.  Yes my son is the current head coach at Mishawaka, but other than that I am not an official administrator or coach at Mishawaka.  I proudly support our community, school and team.  I love wrestling and try to positively promote the sport at all levels....not just self serving to our own program.  As such I do have some disappointment and contention to see such negative comments regarding individuals within a profession that give so much to support our sport of wrestling.  The officiating crew that worked the Al Smith are top notch gentlemen that have given many many years of service to this sport.  Many of those being criticized openly on social media are Hall of Fame individuals that have literally been involved in promoting this sport most of their lives.

We will soon be reaching a crisis situation in our State if we are not able to recruit and develop young officials that will shortly be NEEDED to replace these lifelong veterans.  There is simply no way we can do this with the attitude displayed on social media by a few individuals that didn't have a match go their way this weekend.

 

To the simple fan or parent I can with almost 100% certainty guarantee that in the coach's meeting prior to the first match that this crew of officials explained exactly how stalling was going to be called.  Most likely with examples for each situation.  I can also assure you that 32 teams of coaches relayed this information to their wrestlers.  But lets face it....we are still dealing with high school kids.  They are still going to back up, play the outside edge, not circle in, lay on their stomachs no matter how many times a coach yells "UP", ride the hips while controlling on top without moving side to side.  The philosophy is increased action.  I get it....the call does not always go your way...but to get on a public forum and call out an entire crew for bias, call out the tournament director for being at fault, calling out a Hall of Fame Coach and official by name.....there is in my OPINION no place in this sport that allows for positive to come from that action.  

 

If you are a wrestler on a team, a coach, a parent, an alumni of a program or just a fan...you have a responsibility to REPRESENT your program with the dignity and character your program deserves.  Again IMO that cannot be done by casting shadows over others in our sport that selflessly have given their dedication and time to simply give YOUR kids the opportunities that are necessary for them to compete in this sport.  Also keep in mind that in particular to the Al Smith Invitational...the key word is invitational.  It has always been an honor to be a team that is invited and Mishawaka considers many factors when extending those invitations.  This year was no exception and may have been the best overall field ever.  If you have valid concerns that you feel can make this a better tournament...by all means...use the proper channels and communicate that with your coaches and Athletic Departments to relay those concerns to Coach Sandefer and his Athletic Department.  Negative feelings in the heat of the moment simply shared on social media doesn't really solve anything or even make you feel better if you are honest.

 

Thankful for the support of our Superintendent and School Board as a few were in attendance, our Athletic Dept, Officiating Crew and table workers both days.  Our announcers Mike & Mike...Mike Reiser in the Cave and Mike Kensinger in the big boy gym.  Coaches, team, parents, fans & MHS Alum for helping to make this another great Al Smith!!  Remember I am just a FAN so don't hold my views against those that are working hard everyday for your wrestlers.  POSITIVELY PROMOTE THE SPORT.

Steve Sandefer Sr.

Very well said sir! Thank you guys for allowing me to be a part of this amazing event! 

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1 hour ago, Caleb Spires said:

God, I’ve always hated this response so much. You don’t have to be a chef to know your food got burnt. You don’t have to be a dentist to know if something is wrong with your tooth. And you don’t have to be a referee to see a bad call is being made.

 

Edit: This is not to say we need to get on a message board to ridicule refs for every bad call; they’re human, it happens, none of us could get it perfect every time. But you don’t have to be a certified referee to spot bad calls.

And I’ve always hated people being critical on refs that have been doing this for YEARS. 

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On 12/28/2019 at 4:48 PM, ontherise219 said:

While I don’t agree with every call, I didn’t see any bias. Cathedral won by like 50 points so I doubt there was a bias against them. 
top 3 

cathedral, CP and perry 

also I am not sure how many refs are from the region? 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Indiana

 

we can’t claim south bend as the region 

Agreed...definitely no bias but questionable calls for sure. That’s to be expected though. 🤷🏼‍♀️ 
Some calls may go a wrestlers way one match and shouldn’t and some times a call is made that makes you shake your head and you know it’s not a good call but hey what can you do? They are doing their best. 

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