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Southport vs Fishers in the Rankings


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Okay, let me start off with four premises: 1) I'm a homer for Southport, 2) I'm not the person who posted about love for Southport & Franklin Central (but good for them), 3) I am fully aware Southport is not in Perry's constellation (or Brownsburg, MD, Warren, Roncalli, Franklin Community, etc), 4) And most importantly, I do not want to start a flame war.

 

That said, I noticed that Fishers and Franklin Central made the overall ranking at 19 and 20 (Fishers beat Franklin Central 35-32). And again, good for them. 

 

But, I want to point out that against common opponents at last weekend's New Castle Duals, Southport was the better of the two. Perhaps they were missing some wrestlers, but nevertheless the scores below might be instructive. I'm not trying to take anything away from Fishers or Franklin Central, but just asking for a measly point or two of consideration for Southport.

 

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Fishers and Southport were both at Hurrle on 11/23 and Fishers did finish ahead of Southport in points, although it is true that the two teams did not meet at every weight class. 

 

On the other hand, Southport did win more of the head-to-head matches where they did wrestle.   

 

Sounds like a great dual!  We could settle this at Bloomington South on Saturday! 😎  Rumor has it there are only three schools competing.  :mellow:

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18 minutes ago, pritchem said:

Fishers and Southport were both at Hurrle on 11/23 and Fishers did finish ahead of Southport in points, although it is true that the two teams did not meet at every weight class. 

 

On the other hand, Southport did win more of the head-to-head matches where they did wrestle.   

 

Sounds like a great dual!  We could settle this at Bloomington South on Saturday! 😎  Rumor has it there are only three schools competing.  :mellow:

 

H!. I wish we could, but we have county, and the coach isn't particular inclined to my suggestions  ;)

 

I know a number of the wrestlers on Fisher, they're good kids. I didn't and don't want my post to be misconstrued as maligning their accomplishments. I definitely root for your 106 through 126 whenever I can (except, of course, against our kids). Hey, they're all CIA alums.

Edited by gsmith58
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2 hours ago, pritchem said:

Sounds like a great dual!  We could settle this at Bloomington South on Saturday! 😎  Rumor has it there are only three schools competing.  :mellow:

Yes, it looks like it will be set as a triple-dual unless some other team has jumped in recently.  

Edited by MattM
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I don't know much about Southport or Fishers current teams I don't see them until semi-state. What i do know is that it's hard to base who's better going only off margin of victory of common opponents. When it comes to a dual everything is match up base. for example there's been times as a coach my team has lost to one team my 12 points and the other by 30 points let the team winning by 12 one head to head. This happened be cause we matched up better with the team we lost by 12. There's too many variables to base it off of common wins. Now if Southport beat a team that beat fishers they would have a good argument

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29 minutes ago, bbulldog152 said:

This happened be cause we matched up better with the team we lost by 12. There's too many variables to base it off of common wins. Now if Southport beat a team that beat fishers they would have a good argument

 

I take your point and I agree in principle. However, that really only works if the ranking are quantifiable and objective measures; they aren't always. By what measures did Fishers and Franklin Central get ranked ahead of Southport? We've never wrestled them in a dual. There is a level of subjectivity involved and that's the fun. And for what it's worth, we received the trophy at New Castle, so someone used some type of criteria to award it to us over them. Just say'n 😉

 

Besides, I'm simply trying to get some visibility and to have folks take into consideration new information. It's about reducing uncertainty, not expecting certainty.

Edited by gsmith58
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Not that I care, but If you challenge the rankings then give us a detailed "tale of the tape" between Fishers and Southport.   Somebody needs to sell it. Not just a little snip-it.   Give "Decbell" some real info for the next ranking.

  

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51 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Not that I care, but If you challenge the rankings then give us a detailed "tale of the tape" between Fishers and Southport.   Somebody needs to sell it. Not just a little snip-it.   Give "Decbell" some real info for the next ranking.

  

 

No, I'm not challenging or even remotely criticizing the rankings. It's certainly feasible that Fisher &/or Franklin Central would beat us in a dual, but they might not. 

 

What I have is what you see at the top of this post. I am sure there are defensible positions as to why Fishers and Franklin Central were ranked and we weren't. I'm just pointing out what I see, nothing more, nothing less. For all I know there are many deserving teams that should be considered above us (or above Fishers and Franklin Central).

 

The rankers do a great job, and I certainly understand you can't please everyone (sometimes anyone). This was not intended as a criticism of the rankers.

 

What I do know is where there is a lot of noise signal can go unseen.

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2 hours ago, gsmith58 said:

 

I take your point and I agree in principle. However, that really only works if the ranking are quantifiable and objective measures; they aren't always. By what measures did Fishers and Franklin Central get ranked ahead of Southport? We've never wrestled them in a dual. There is a level of subjectivity involved and that's the fun. And for what it's worth, we received the trophy at New Castle, so someone used some type of criteria to award it to us over them. Just say'n 😉

 

Besides, I'm simply trying to get some visibility and to have folks take into consideration new information. It's about reducing uncertainty, not expecting certainty.

Typically, if you both finished 5-0 on the day and obviously didn’t wrestle head-to-head, they will add up all of your team points and the one with the most is declared the winner. 

Edited by RASSLER4LIFE
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On 12/18/2019 at 1:37 PM, bbulldog152 said:

When it comes to a dual everything is match up based.

This is of course true to some extent, but results between two teams are usually very predictable when they've had 4 or 5 common opponents.

 

If one team averaged 25 points more in point differential for 4 results like the ones listed in the first post, they will almost always win when the two teams meet.

 

The only time this is not the case is when the team that consistently won the common opponent duals by lower margins has numerous very high-end kids and numerous very weak kids that ensure they win most duals while also ensuring lesser teams will take significant points from them.

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I'm the head coach at Fishers High School. All three teams (Fishers, Southport, and Franklin Central) are very close in dual meet strength. I'm not debating who is more worthy of a ranking. I just wanted to get on here and point out that at the New Castle Invite, Fishers was not at full strength. We had four starters out (two of which were Semi State Qualifiers last year). One of our backups did very well, but the other three did not fare so well that day. So, the New Castle invite was not a good gauge, in my opinion. Something to take into consideration. I think it's great that all three teams are getting some exposure. Good luck to all during the second half of the season. Thanks for reading.

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10 hours ago, Frank Ingalls said:

I'm the head coach at Fishers High School. All three teams (Fishers, Southport, and Franklin Central) are very close in dual meet strength. I'm not debating who is more worthy of a ranking. I just wanted to get on here and point out that at the New Castle Invite, Fishers was not at full strength. We had four starters out (two of which were Semi State Qualifiers last year). One of our backups did very well, but the other three did not fare so well that day. So, the New Castle invite was not a good gauge, in my opinion. Something to take into consideration. I think it's great that all three teams are getting some exposure. Good luck to all during the second half of the season. Thanks for reading.

That's why decbell gets paid the big bucks. He looks into the specifics behind the results. 

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