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On 3/27/2019 at 11:23 PM, Westforkwhite said:

 

141 definitely wasn't tougher 1-6 than 133. You could make the argument that 141 was better 1-16, but 133 was pretty dog gone good this year.

Your high. 133 was missing defending champ, and Micic was hurt. You had several guys who ran away from Lee at 125 ending up AA's, or being finalists, beating 133lb placers from the year before. That tells you 133 was overrated. Bridges and Wilson who placed last year were beaten by 125 lb'rs from last year as well. You can't have that many previous year 125 pound wrestlers dominating your class and say it was good. 

141 had 3 guys that are going to battle it out for Olympic spot in near future, plus 2 returning AA's who could end up 4x AA. 

None of the natural 133 lbrs could hang with Yianni, McKenna, or Eireman if they moved up like the 125 guys did. 

141 - 2019 Guaranteed Places

  • 1st Place - Yianni Diakomihalis of Cornell
  • 2nd Place - Joey McKenna of Ohio State
  • 3rd Place - Jaydin Eierman of Missouri
  • 4th Place - Dom Demas of Oklahoma
  • 5th Place - Nick Lee of Penn State
  • 6th Place - Mitch McKee of Minnesota
  • 7th Place - Kyle Shoop of Lock Haven
  • 8th Place - Chad Red of Nebraska

141 - 2018 Guaranteed Places

  • 1st Place - Yianni Diakomihalis of Cornell
  • 2nd Place - Bryce Meredith of Wyoming (graduated)
  • 3rd Place - Joey McKenna of Ohio State
  • 4th Place - Jaydin Eierman of Missouri
  • 5th Place - Nick Lee of Penn State
  • 6th Place - Kevin Jack of NC State (graduated)
  • 7th Place - Chad Red of Nebraska
  • 8th Place - Sa`Derian Perry of Eastern Michigan (failed to place)
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1 hour ago, Powerline said:

Your high. 133 was missing defending champ, and Micic was hurt. You had several guys who ran away from Lee at 125 ending up AA's, or being finalists, beating 133lb placers from the year before. That tells you 133 was overrated. Bridges and Wilson who placed last year were beaten by 125 lb'rs from last year as well. You can't have that many previous year 125 pound wrestlers dominating your class and say it was good. 

141 had 3 guys that are going to battle it out for Olympic spot in near future, plus 2 returning AA's who could end up 4x AA. 

None of the natural 133 lbrs could hang with Yianni, McKenna, or Eireman if they moved up like the 125 guys did. 

141 - 2019 Guaranteed Places

  • 1st Place - Yianni Diakomihalis of Cornell
  • 2nd Place - Joey McKenna of Ohio State
  • 3rd Place - Jaydin Eierman of Missouri
  • 4th Place - Dom Demas of Oklahoma
  • 5th Place - Nick Lee of Penn State
  • 6th Place - Mitch McKee of Minnesota
  • 7th Place - Kyle Shoop of Lock Haven
  • 8th Place - Chad Red of Nebraska

141 - 2018 Guaranteed Places

  • 1st Place - Yianni Diakomihalis of Cornell
  • 2nd Place - Bryce Meredith of Wyoming (graduated)
  • 3rd Place - Joey McKenna of Ohio State
  • 4th Place - Jaydin Eierman of Missouri
  • 5th Place - Nick Lee of Penn State
  • 6th Place - Kevin Jack of NC State (graduated)
  • 7th Place - Chad Red of Nebraska
  • 8th Place - Sa`Derian Perry of Eastern Michigan (failed to place)

Wait, your argument is that returning All Americans not placing means that weight was weaker? That makes no sense. And what’s your deal with 133 being because 125lbers bumped? It’s not like Rivera bumping up to wrestle Micic, every single guy weighed in at 133. 125s bumping up could only increase the talent pool

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133

 

1 Nick Suriano            2x All American    1st, 2nd            1 years remaining

2 Daton Fix            1x All American    2nd            3 years remaining

3 Stevan Micic            3x All American    2nd, 3rd, 4th     1 years remaining

4 Luke Pletcher           2x All American    4th, 4th             1 years remaining

5 Austin Desanto        1x All American    5th            2 years remaining

6 John Erneste           1x All American    6th            Graduating

7 Ethan Lizak            2x All American    2nd, 7th        Graduating

8 Bravo-Young            1x All American    8th            3 years remaining

 

Blood Rounders

Micky Phillippi                                3 years remaining

Tariq Wilson            1x All American    3rd            2 years remaining

Austin Gomez                                3 years remaining

Mason Pengilly                                Graduating

 

Champions- 1

2nd to 4th placers- 9

5th to 8th placers- 4

Total AAs- 14

Returning- 9 of 12

 

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141

 

1 Yianni Diakomihalis        2x All American    1st, 1st            2 years remaining

2 Joey Mckenna        4x All American    2nd, 3rd, 3rd        Graduating

3 Jaydin Eierman        3x All American    3rd, 4th, 5th        1 years remaining

4 Dom Demas            1x All American    4th             3 years remaining

5 Nick Lee             2x All American    5th, 5th            2 years remaining

6 Mitch Mckee            1x All American    6th            1 years remaining

7 Kyle Shoop            1x All American    7th            1 years remaining

8 Chad Red Jr            2x All American    7th, 8th            2 years remaining

 

Blood Rounders

Kaid Brock            2x All American    5th, 5th            1 years remaining

Matt Findlay                                2 years remaining

Tristan Moran                                 1 years remaining

Max Murin                                 3 years remaining

 

Champions- 2

2nd to 4th placers- 6

5th to 8th placers- 9

Total AAs- 17

Returning- 11 of 12


 

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22 hours ago, Thor said:

Wait, your argument is that returning All Americans not placing means that weight was weaker? That makes no sense. And what’s your deal with 133 being because 125lbers bumped? It’s not like Rivera bumping up to wrestle Micic, every single guy weighed in at 133. 125s bumping up could only increase the talent pool

See Berg's data, it basically proved my point. No doubt, both 133 & 141 were two of the deepest weights, and 125 was right there, so in looking at the two there are several factors.  Earlier in the year I too was thinking 133 was deeper, but after it went down that was not the case. Relative to 141, 133 turned out to be a little inflated.

* I will give you that 133 is the deepest and best Big Ten weight with unheard of 6 AA's by one conference, but 141 is a tougher weight nationally 

* 133 - returning champ (injured), and Micic was injured and not 100%. 

* When 3 guys (FIX, Lizak, Suriano), all great 125ib wrestlers can bump up and dominate the 133 weight class above, while those guys are impressive, it is also a sign that the weight was not as tough as originally expected. 8 lb jump is a big deal. See how Micic dealt a beat down to Sebastian Rivera.  That many 125lb guys should not be able to dominate next weight up. 

* At 141 those top 3 guys are US Olympic caliber compared to 133, heads and shoulders. Dom Demas was a World Jr Team Member as was McKee from Minnesota, are the next Tier world class compared to the first 3. Add in Red and Lee who are stronger suited for folkstyle, but could easily be 4X AA's, and a monster in Shoop who dropped from 149.

The top end of 133 is not even close to 141. If you could not see the difference in the offense, creativity, and athletic ability displayed by Diakomihalis, Mckenna , and Eierman, then I don't know what to tell you. It was night and day. 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Powerline said:

See Berg's data, it basically proved my point. No doubt, both 133 & 141 were two of the deepest weights, and 125 was right there, so in looking at the two there are several factors.  Earlier in the year I too was thinking 133 was deeper, but after it went down that was not the case. Relative to 141, 133 turned out to be a little inflated.

* I will give you that 133 is the deepest and best Big Ten weight with unheard of 6 AA's by one conference, but 141 is a tougher weight nationally 

* 133 - returning champ (injured), and Micic was injured and not 100%. 

* When 3 guys (FIX, Lizak, Suriano), all great 125ib wrestlers can bump up and dominate the 133 weight class above, while those guys are impressive, it is also a sign that the weight was not as tough as originally expected. 8 lb jump is a big deal. See how Micic dealt a beat down to Sebastian Rivera.  That many 125lb guys should not be able to dominate next weight up. 

* At 141 those top 3 guys are US Olympic caliber compared to 133, heads and shoulders. Dom Demas was a World Jr Team Member as was McKee from Minnesota, are the next Tier world class compared to the first 3. Add in Red and Lee who are stronger suited for folkstyle, but could easily be 4X AA's, and a monster in Shoop who dropped from 149.

The top end of 133 is not even close to 141. If you could not see the difference in the offense, creativity, and athletic ability displayed by Diakomihalis, Mckenna , and Eierman, then I don't know what to tell you. It was night and day. 

 

 

I’m not disagreeing necessarily that 133 was stronger, just saying it’s flawed to say 125 lbers bumping shows a weight is weaker. The reason the weight was so touted was because those guys bumped. Without Suriano and Lizak, this weight isn’t talked about as much. And you could say 133 was deeper because they all beat each other, while 141 had a clear hierarchy and no one was beating Yianni. 

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In my opinion 141 was a little stronger, but the "125s moved up and did well" argument is not the reason. HUGE difference between an in-season 125 bumping up and a previous season 125 taking advantage of all his off-season weight training and different in-season diet to be an IN-SEASON 133.  Completely different body composition.

Ask Micic if Suriano felt like a 133 or a bumped up 125.

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On 4/6/2019 at 5:41 AM, maligned said:

In my opinion 141 was a little stronger, but the "125s moved up and did well" argument is not the reason. HUGE difference between an in-season 125 bumping up and a previous season 125 taking advantage of all his off-season weight training and different in-season diet to be an IN-SEASON 133.  Completely different body composition.

Ask Micic if Suriano felt like a 133 or a bumped up 125.

True, but a clip winged Micic was not the same

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On 4/9/2019 at 9:50 PM, 1prouddad said:

And you do realize he wrestled 133 last year, right?

Yes, and the year before that. I took @Powerline as claiming 25s that move up don't do much for the depth of 33. Micic began as a 25, moved up and made 33 deeper a couple years back. Just like Suriano and Lizak did this year.  

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18 hours ago, B. Alan said:

Yes, and the year before that. I took @Powerline as claiming 25s that move up don't do much for the depth of 33. Micic began as a 25, moved up and made 33 deeper a couple years back. Just like Suriano and Lizak did this year.  

Actually Micac the last 3 years of his 5 have been at 133, after a red-shirt  ear at 125 and year off.

Stand by my argument - the 125# guys came up and dominated the existing 133# guys way to easily. Big frame advantage at 133...more importantly:  

#1 - No returning champ & 2x finalist in Gross, and an injured Micic

#2 - In general at 133, several guys who are not very strong on their feet or explosive all-around. Lizak is very good on top but terrible on his feet, DeSanto is a one trick-pony that everyone has figured out, Erneste - mehhh, Pletcher is boring has hell and takes no chances. Fix has the most explosiveness and did not do much in the final and tourney; same for Suriano - he can be physical, but not technically explosive. 

#3 - 141 Depth - Can't think of a tougher top 3 or Top 8 than 141 - the technique in the semi-finals was two steps above anything from the #133lb class. The runner up was the 2018 US Open champ for cripes sake. 

1st Place - Yianni Diakomihalis of Cornell - 2X champ and 2X Gold in Cadet world championships
2nd Place - Joey McKenna of Ohio State - 2018 US Senior Open Champ and Two-time U.S. Junior World Team member (freestyle), capturing a silver medal in 2014
3rd Place - Jaydin Eierman of Missouri - the funkiest, 2nd most creative, and most explosive guy in the field - beat Yianni previous - will be 4x AA and have 125+ wins by time he is done
4th Place - Dom Demas of Oklahoma UWW U20 Junior Freestyle World Team 
5th Place - Nick Lee of Penn State - 2X AA at 141
6th Place - Mitch McKee of Minnesota - Silver Medalist at Junior World Championships (Freestyle) in 2017
7th Place - Kyle Shoop of Lock Haven - bruiser who came down from 149
8th Place - Chad Red of Nebraska - 2X AA at 141 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Powerline said:

Actually Micac the last 3 years of his 5 have been at 133, after a red-shirt  ear at 125 and year off.

Stand by my argument - the 125# guys came up and dominated the existing 133# guys way to easily. Big frame advantage at 133...more importantly:  

#1 - No returning champ & 2x finalist in Gross, and an injured Micic

#2 - In general at 133, several guys who are not very strong on their feet or explosive all-around. Lizak is very good on top but terrible on his feet, DeSanto is a one trick-pony that everyone has figured out, Erneste - mehhh, Pletcher is boring has hell and takes no chances. Fix has the most explosiveness and did not do much in the final and tourney; same for Suriano - he can be physical, but not technically explosive. 

#3 - 141 Depth - Can't think of a tougher top 3 or Top 8 than 141 - the technique in the semi-finals was two steps above anything from the #133lb class. The runner up was the 2018 US Open champ for cripes sake. 

1st Place - Yianni Diakomihalis of Cornell - 2X champ and 2X Gold in Cadet world championships
2nd Place - Joey McKenna of Ohio State - 2018 US Senior Open Champ and Two-time U.S. Junior World Team member (freestyle), capturing a silver medal in 2014
3rd Place - Jaydin Eierman of Missouri - the funkiest, 2nd most creative, and most explosive guy in the field - beat Yianni previous - will be 4x AA and have 125+ wins by time he is done
4th Place - Dom Demas of Oklahoma UWW U20 Junior Freestyle World Team 
5th Place - Nick Lee of Penn State - 2X AA at 141
6th Place - Mitch McKee of Minnesota - Silver Medalist at Junior World Championships (Freestyle) in 2017
7th Place - Kyle Shoop of Lock Haven - bruiser who came down from 149
8th Place - Chad Red of Nebraska - 2X AA at 141 

 

 

Your logic still makes no sense, and you’re too damn stubborn to ever understand, BUT THEY ALL WEIGHED 133 LBS. Moving up in weight does not impact in the slightest how good you are. All those that bumped are good

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2 hours ago, Thor said:

Your logic still makes no sense, and you’re too damn stubborn to ever understand, BUT THEY ALL WEIGHED 133 LBS. Moving up in weight does not impact in the slightest how good you are. All those that bumped are good

I agree. And by the looks of Suriano he was a true 133. I personally think he even looked bigger than most of the class out there so I’m not too sure he “ bumped” up

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On 4/15/2019 at 11:13 PM, B. Alan said:

Yes, and the year before that. I took @Powerline as claiming 25s that move up don't do much for the depth of 33. Micic began as a 25, moved up and made 33 deeper a couple years back. Just like Suriano and Lizak did this year.  

I wouldn't be surprised if this is the first year Micic really had to cut a bit of weight to make 133 compared to years previous; he looked like a combination of a growth spurt and muscle gain. Making 57 kilograms/125.4 pounds will be no easy task. 

 

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On 4/16/2019 at 11:11 PM, 1prouddad said:

I agree. And by the looks of Suriano he was a true 133. I personally think he even looked bigger than most of the class out there so I’m not too sure he “ bumped” up

He did look big - but I am skeptic of methods...

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/16/2019 at 8:42 PM, Thor said:

Your logic still makes no sense, and you’re too damn stubborn to ever understand, BUT THEY ALL WEIGHED 133 LBS. Moving up in weight does not impact in the slightest how good you are. All those that bumped are good

Any more questions on the tougher weight and why guys coming up from 125 dominating 133 makes a difference?

Look no other place than the US Freestyle championship last weekend. FIX was able to go down to 125.5 and win the Senior Freestyle - 133 was all graduates no college placers, but 65KG had three guys who placed at 141 this year. Eierman Yianni, Storr...

 

57KG 

1Daton Fix (TMWC)
2Thomas Gilman (TMWC)
3Zane Richards (TMWC)
4Vitali Arujau (TMWC)
5Darian Cruz (NYAC/LVWC)
6Nathan Tomasello (TMWC)
7Frank Perrelli (TMWC)
8Zach Sanders (MN)
 
60KG 
1Cody Brewer (TMWC)
2Nico Megaludis (TMWC)
3Joey Palmer (Unattached)
4Tyler Graff (TMWC)
5Cory Clark (TMWC)
6Anthony Ramos (Sunkist Kids Wrestling Club)
7Earl Hall (TMWC)
8Beau Bartlett (Sunkist Kids Wrestling Club)
 
610
 
 
65 KG PLACES
1Yianni Diakomihalis (TMWC)
2Zain Retherford (NLWC)
3Jayson Ness (MN)
4Frank Molinaro (TMWC)
5Jaydin Eierman (TMWC)
6Jordan Oliver (Sunkist Kids Wrestling Club)
7Kanen Storr (TMWC)
8Bernard Futrell (TMWC)
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  • 1 month later...
On 3/27/2019 at 11:23 PM, Westforkwhite said:

 

141 definitely wasn't tougher 1-6 than 133. You could make the argument that 141 was better 1-16, but 133 was pretty dog gone good this year.

 

Well looks like 133 for Big Ten's just got a while lot tougher with Gross transfer to Wisconsin. We could see Suriano / Micic a couple of times. Maybe Gross goes to 141. 

Gross - Wisconsin (2nd & 1st at SDSU), Suriano-Rutgers (2nd, 1st) , Micic-Michigan (4th,2nd,3rd), Pletcher-OSU (4th, 4th), DeSanto-Iowa (5th), RB-Young-Penn State (8th),

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1 hour ago, Powerline said:

 

Well looks like 133 for Big Ten's just got a while lot tougher with Gross transfer to Wisconsin. We could see Suriano / Micic a couple of times. Maybe Gross goes to 141. 

Gross - Wisconsin (2nd & 1st at SDSU), Suriano-Rutgers (2nd, 1st) , Micic-Michigan (4th,2nd,3rd), Pletcher-OSU (4th, 4th), DeSanto-Iowa (5th), RB-Young-Penn State (8th),

Agreed. Big Tens will be crazy again at 133 and 141 next year. Gross may land at 141, I think he cut a lot at 133. He will be interesting at either weight. Top 5 guys in both weights are 2 TDs better in neutral but his top game is on another level with only Spencer Lee being close. Gross has surely benefited from the 4 point nf as much as anyone, and I don't anticipate that will change much after the year off.

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