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Wrestling Scholar

Congratulations forum for making it through the season withoug a major class post on class wrestling

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6 hours ago, H.B. said:

The Indiana state tournament series already doesn’t mean much with the way it’s ran. The lack of seeding or wrestlebacks kills our potential. You want to see a good single class tournament? Watch the CIF State Championships. Excellent from top to bottom.

Agree, no need for Class Wrestling when there is a few minor adjustments to get it perfect . California has it, we just need to catch up. 

I did hear from the announcers say that change is coming for CIF in the future. I hope not, Leave it ! 

Possible Divisions or Sections to break it up into 3 . Very impressed with CIF. 

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4 hours ago, TeamGarcia said:

Agree, no need for Class Wrestling when there is a few minor adjustments to get it perfect . California has it, we just need to catch up. 

I did hear from the announcers say that change is coming for CIF in the future. I hope not, Leave it ! 

Possible Divisions or Sections to break it up into 3 . Very impressed with CIF. 

The lack of wrestle-backs helps get some kids to state from smaller schools. With wrestle-backs you'll see more big school kids getting through.

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9 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

The lack of wrestle-backs helps get some kids to state from smaller schools. With wrestle-backs you'll see more big school kids getting through.

Kids that work the hardest from small or big schools will Benefit from wrestle backs in Indiana current single class . Cali has it, Indiana needs it . 

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1 hour ago, TeamGarcia said:

Kids that work the hardest from small or big schools will Benefit from wrestle backs in Indiana current single class . Cali has it, Indiana needs it . 

Ahhh yes the old "work the hardest" statement. This is always one of my favorites. It is interesting how there more kids that work hard at bigger schools than smaller schools.

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37 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Ahhh yes the old "work the hardest" statement. This is always one of my favorites. It is interesting how there more kids that work hard at bigger schools than smaller schools.

Besides woker harder,  I like the try harder statement.  Its all about trying.

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15 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Ahhh yes the old "work the hardest" statement. This is always one of my favorites. It is interesting how there more kids that work hard at bigger schools than smaller schools.

Any school, any sport, the athlete puts in the time you’ll get results . Some athletes don’t get that concept in Big or Small Schools and their results show this . 

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Here is a fair question (and I swear I don’t know the answer to it). I know that Joes school (Carroll) is in a semi state or area with mostly smaller schools (a lot of 1 and 2 A schools up there). How many of the Carroll guys were knocked out of the tourney by kids from smaller schools? 

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1 hour ago, Mattyb said:

Here is a fair question (and I swear I don’t know the answer to it). I know that Joes school (Carroll) is in a semi state or area with mostly smaller schools (a lot of 1 and 2 A schools up there). How many of the Carroll guys were knocked out of the tourney by kids from smaller schools? 

What does this have to do with anything? This is not about Carroll or me, this is about the sport of wrestling. 

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1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

What does this have to do with anything? This is not about Carroll or me, this is about the sport of wrestling. 

100 percent true. I did not bring it up because you coach there. I bring up Carroll because they are the most dominate larger school which is located in a part of our state that has a majority of smaller schools. I truely do not know if Carroll guys were knocked off by smaller or larger schools. I was asking. My point is if the Carroll guys are losing to small school guys, it could be argued that class wrestling is not needed. I really don’t know who beats who up there. 

And before you all tell me to look at track... I have no idea which school are big schools and which are smaller schools up there. Sorry 

Edited by Mattyb

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1 minute ago, Mattyb said:

100 percent true. I did not bring it up because you coach there. I bring up Carroll because they are the most dominate larger school which is located in a part of our state that has a majority of smaller schools. I truely do not know if Carroll guys were knocked off by smaller or larger schools. I was asking. My point is if the Carroll guys are losing to small school guys, it could be argued that class wrestling is not needed. I really don’t know who beats who up there. 

Carroll is basically the biggest school in the semi state so if we lose it's to someone smaller.

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3 hours ago, TeamGarcia said:

Any school, any sport, the athlete puts in the time you’ll get results . Some athletes don’t get that concept in Big or Small Schools and their results show this . 

Tell me, how good do you think Asa would’ve been if you would’ve moved to South Adams instead of Avon? Is he still a 3 time champ in the national rankings? 

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3 minutes ago, Thor said:

Tell me, how good do you think Asa would’ve been if you would’ve moved to South Adams instead of Avon? Is he still a 3 time champ in the national rankings? 

Does he still do all the out of season training and wrestling that he did while at Avon?  Are his parents still in position to do all of those things?  If so, then yes....

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6 minutes ago, AJ said:

Does he still do all the out of season training and wrestling that he did while at Avon?  Are his parents still in position to do all of those things?  If so, then yes....

I think probably yes.  However, the in season practice room at Avon and their top notch schedule is a factor as well.

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19 minutes ago, Thor said:

Tell me, how good do you think Asa would’ve been if you would’ve moved to South Adams instead of Avon? Is he still a 3 time champ in the national rankings? 

Love you logic, but no one will bite. These types of thought experiments rarely get honestly thought through.

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25 minutes ago, Thor said:

Tell me, how good do you think Asa would’ve been if you would’ve moved to South Adams instead of Avon? Is he still a 3 time champ in the national rankings? 

Does Monrovia count?  Are they small enough?  Ben Dalton has done OK, and in a region with the heavyweights.  I don't know the kid at all besides seeing him around and seeing the work he puts in...but his wrestling career has been OK last time I checked.

He's just one that came to mind.  And obviously Asa's talent has something to do with his 3X State Champ success.  

Edited by Kookie953

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And to add to my above post...if you truly are "elite" and have been and as a parent you want you child to be successful, then many times that's why those families migrate to a major metro area or move in to a school system with a great wrestling program. So success breeds success within this topic that nobody wants to acknowledge.  Just by the nature of the size of the program, if you're wrestling varsity for Avon, Brownsburg, Cathedral, Perry Meridian, Warren...you have to be pretty damn good just to make one of those 14 spots.     

And another kid that comes to mind is Gavinn Alstott.  His family sacrifices and gets him to the best gyms hours away because the kid wants to work and get better.  So they go to extraordinary circumstances to make that happen.  He's a fun kid to watch have success.  Or is Floyd Central too big?  

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4 hours ago, TeamGarcia said:

Any school, any sport, the athlete puts in the time you’ll get results . Some athletes don’t get that concept in Big or Small Schools and their results show this . 

kids who work so hard become great when they have training partners - who can push them  , when they have coaches who can push them  or even a training partner their size.

We had 11 kids this year  -my son who was a SQ at 152 had training partners who he can literally just push over.  

Our room is literally the size of a closet

No excuses - he got better   - just some of the limitations and challenges you’re glossing over  

Resources make a HUGE difference   

His training partners were great his first 3 years  never his size though  way smaller the first 2  and way bigger his 3rd  

106 partner - he was 120

113 partner he was 132

170 partner he was 138

 

in summer he has a very good partner - had he been in a bigger room with more kids and coaches  I believe he gets better and better  - maybe I’m wrong  - but when I see a kid train everyday and not be challenged by anyone , not because he’s unreal , just because they aren’t on his level.  That’s a challenge I would venture to say most big schools don’t have. 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 2/18/2019 at 5:16 PM, Wrestling Scholar said:

1st lets keep It that way.  To the Chagrin of Galagore, this is the year without a major class wrestling debate.  Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall a major discussion.    Probably a good thing because it gives the dead  horse a chance to recuperate.    Anyway, Im saving all my "A" material for next years debate just in case.

 

 

Well, there goes that......

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44 minutes ago, Kookie953 said:

And to add to my above post...if you truly are "elite" and have been and as a parent you want you child to be successful, then many times that's why those families migrate to a major metro area or move in to a school system with a great wrestling program. So success breeds success within this topic that nobody wants to acknowledge.  Just by the nature of the size of the program, if you're wrestling varsity for Avon, Brownsburg, Cathedral, Perry Meridian, Warren...you have to be pretty damn good just to make one of those 14 spots.     

And another kid that comes to mind is Gavinn Alstott.  His family sacrifices and gets him to the best gyms hours away because the kid wants to work and get better.  So they go to extraordinary circumstances to make that happen.  He's a fun kid to watch have success.  Or is Floyd Central too big?  

Doesn't the bold statement sound like something that would support classing wrestling? Don't athletes who have this type of environment built in have an advantage over those who have to seek it out?

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1 hour ago, Thor said:

Tell me, how good do you think Asa would’ve been if you would’ve moved to South Adams instead of Avon? Is he still a 3 time champ in the national rankings? 

Yes, I had a plan, I grew wrestling Steven Bradley, I asked back then when we was wrestling AAU, what do you do to make yourself better ? He told me, I train everyday . I knew right then the formula . You either train everyday or everyone else catches up to you. All the great wrestlers know that. My family now didn’t have vacations, our vacations was wrestling they still are. I can’t remember the last time we didn’t wrestle on a vacation. Holidays was spent training. Only day he took off was his birthday, or his siblings birthday . He and his Brother  Train at a high level, I’d drive him to the best Academy around to get the best training . Even if it’s 2 hours away.  He’d still travel the Country getting feed to the wolves over & over & over . When we lived in Muncie, the Pal Club went everywhere in the State Wrestling. We we moved to Avon area, I put him in the best academy in the area in 2011. I made a commitment early I was going make him into the best wrestler he can be. 

I’d 100% yes, if we move anywhere else in Indiana he’d still be the wrestler his is today cause I knew back then what it took to be great . Everyday 24/7/365 . You can ask him yourself if you like. He’ll tell You get what you put into this sport.

It starts with the kid wanting to get better, then you add a training partners.  In Muncie Pal Club days we started out with Austin Gonzales, if your kids wrestled back then kid was good for his age. Then I moved my Family to Avon to be closer to my job. Put him in Contenders Wrestling Academy, back then they was just getting their feet wet as a Academy Wrestling lots of “kiddie killers” as others would call us . He trained in elementary with Trey Lane, Ray Rioux, Ty Mills to get better. They was making him better as well themselves. 

We just did what we always done, wrestle. If there was a tournament we wrestled in it. If there was a open room we practice, practice, practice. 4 hour practices . Everyday ! 

 

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No, because there are no absolutes.  There's no limit to an INDIVIDUAL doing well.  I have never typed that a team dual state championship should not be classed...and honestly how the IHSAA crowns a "team" champion is stupid but that's another post.  

There's too many outliers to any point about classing the individual tournament.  There are plenty of small school kids that do just fine to show that class of the individual isn't the end all to success, or lack thereof.  My point was to show that great wresters gravitate to the larger schools, and simple statistics show that a varsity wrestler at a large school is really good.    

Logan Boe somehow is a 2X state placer at Danville...and again this year at Plainfield.  Nobody is saying that larger schools have some advantages, but those advantages don't outweigh changing the current individual tournament setup and further diluting the product.  

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@Thor How good would a South Adams Team or any small school be if they “all” just practice everyday? At school, in a garage, at home, Academy, Club. 

I know the Indy area does. I see it every night . 

This area hasn’t become good over night, it takes time . Valuable Time that some take advantage of everyday. 

 

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43 minutes ago, TeamGarcia said:

@Thor How good would a South Adams Team or any small school be if they “all” just practice everyday? At school, in a garage, at home, Academy, Club. 

I know the Indy area does. I see it every night . 

This area hasn’t become good over night, it takes time . Valuable Time that some take advantage of everyday. 

 

This was the very point I was trying to make earlier and was jumped on for it. The size of school is irrelevant. The biggest factor is year round wrestling that is being done. I posted earlier that AC has several athletes that work their tails off year round, the difference is that it is in 2-3 sports. The kids that wrestle only are separating themselves. This is a fact and you see it in the rise of the communities that are doing it. 

This is the biggest factor to their success. A small school kid can do it also, but at the expense of the other sports that they are being recruited to play by their peers and the other head coaches.  If we want all our programs to be successful, AC has to share athletes between their sports as there are truly only a set number to choose from in a school of 375 total HS students.

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I don't buy into the big schools have this huge advantage over small schools when it comes to individual success.  Bigger enrollments give a school more kids that might have the talent and work ethic to have more success but what makes wrestling great is same size kids wrestle each other so it isn't like a 1A school going against a 6A school in basketball or football where one school has multiple 6'8" kids or multiple 300 lb kids who can physically dominate the other.  Is it more convenient at larger schools with better resources?  Yes.  Does it prevent a small school kid from having success? No.  I can work as hard as I want in basketball but I cant work hard enough to be 6'8".  In Wrestling I don't have to overcome something I cant control.  And its just not the "work harder' argument.  It is truly a commitment to getting better.  It takes sacrifice, dedication, hard work and still some talent to get better and be great.  

Now would it help the sport?  Yes I think it would.  More kids having success would bring out more kids.  Its too bad we cant have an "all-in" team tournament by class with Sectionals, Regionals, Semi-States and State.  The IHSWCA Team tournament is awesome but what about the school that winning a sectional or regional is a really big deal.  Maybe it gets kids on the team to recruit some good athletes to fill weight classes.  Gives more training partners.  Helps develop a wrestling culture at a school. 

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I am not trying to make excuses, this is just the reality that small schools face. 

I am curious of the small school kids that are being listed as examples of being successful, how many have quit their other sports to focus on wrestling only and regularly attend academies.  I could be way off here, but I truly believe that is the overwhelming factor that is separating the top from everyone else. 

Like I said size of school does not matter, it is the other opportunities that does. Whether that opportunity is being able to play football and baseball as well or the local wrestling training academy.

I believe I read where Silas Allred had to make the decision to focus on wrestling only. And that kid is a dominant force from a small school. 

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