Jump to content
Wrestling Scholar

Congratulations forum for making it through the season withoug a major class post on class wrestling

Recommended Posts

Just now, Bigyusm said:

Very good info as usual. 

So basically 70% of state qualifiers /placers would be 2A schools in a 2 class system.  That is staggering and puts into perspective how difficult it is for a School our size to compete. 

If we kept the 16 man bracket for 2A and just had an 8 man bracket for 1A, 1A teams would literally DOUBLE their state qualifiers. 

Here is a little more info based on percentages

  Student % Placer % Qual % Top 4 %
1A 22.10% 22.32% 24.55% 17.86%
2A 77.90% 77.68% 75.45% 82.14%
         
1A 12.14% 10.71% 13.84% 5.36%
2A 24.14% 25.00% 23.66% 23.21%
3A 63.72% 64.29% 62.50% 71.43%

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here’s the thing I have gathered as my son was looking to wreslte in college.  He originally wanted to wreslte in warm weather and we reached out to many schools. Most of them don’t even realize the way Indiana is set up if they are not recruiting here.  He took a visit at UNC Pembroke and the coach and I had a long conversation about it. He basically told me he needs more accolades. He was a Semi State qualifier at that point and a part time wrestler.  It didn’t matter he had wrestled a NC 3rd place finisher in the summer to a 2-1 loss and beat another NC placer 3-1.  Or took a loss to a NJ placer 4-2. He was just a semi state qualifier. Now he is a State Qualifier - I would venture to say in the class system he might have placed and the “accolades” would be there with his name.  

 

I like the oh oh we are tough to get to state machismo - but when coaches from outsid our recruiting area don’t see placers they aren’t as interested. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

If we kept the 16 man bracket for 2A and just had an 8 man bracket for 1A, 1A teams would literally DOUBLE their state qualifiers. 

Here is a little more info based on percentages

  Student % Placer % Qual % Top 4 %
1A 22.10% 22.32% 24.55% 17.86%
2A 77.90% 77.68% 75.45% 82.14%
         
1A 12.14% 10.71% 13.84% 5.36%
2A 24.14% 25.00% 23.66% 23.21%
3A 63.72% 64.29% 62.50% 71.43%

The % of qualifiers and placers hold pretty well with the percent of population with the exception of placing top 4, wouldn’t you agree? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Bigyusm said:

Here’s the thing I have gathered as my son was looking to wreslte in college.  He originally wanted to wreslte in warm weather and we reached out to many schools. Most of them don’t even realize the way Indiana is set up if they are not recruiting here.  He took a visit at UNC Pembroke and the coach and I had a long conversation about it. He basically told me he needs more accolades. He was a Semi State qualifier at that point and a part time wrestler.  It didn’t matter he had wrestled a NC 3rd place finisher in the summer to a 2-1 loss and beat another NC placer 3-1.  Or took a loss to a NJ placer 4-2. He was just a semi state qualifier. Now he is a State Qualifier - I would venture to say in the class system he might have placed and the “accolades” would be there with his name.  

 

I like the oh oh we are tough to get to state machismo - but when coaches from outsid our recruiting area don’t see placers they aren’t as interested. 

I think there is one the key point that you glossed over, which I put in bold faced font. Sometimes we tend to think people just "know" Indiana wrestling and "what it means" to be a "ticket rounder" or a qualifier. Guessing your experience is closer to reality. Especially if your college aspirations take you outside the 4-5 state area.

Edited by Galagore
missing a verb in first sentence

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Bigyusm said:

Here’s the thing I have gathered as my son was looking to wreslte in college.  He originally wanted to wreslte in warm weather and we reached out to many schools. Most of them don’t even realize the way Indiana is set up if they are not recruiting here.  He took a visit at UNC Pembroke and the coach and I had a long conversation about it. He basically told me he needs more accolades. He was a Semi State qualifier at that point and a part time wrestler.  It didn’t matter he had wrestled a NC 3rd place finisher in the summer to a 2-1 loss and beat another NC placer 3-1.  Or took a loss to a NJ placer 4-2. He was just a semi state qualifier. Now he is a State Qualifier - I would venture to say in the class system he might have placed and the “accolades” would be there with his name.  

 

I like the oh oh we are tough to get to state machismo - but when coaches from outsid our recruiting area don’t see placers they aren’t as interested. 

I took a kid to a school in Michigan who told me our one class system was awesome, because you could really get an idea of the level of our kids. 

Eric Guerrero said similar things at our fall clinic a few years back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, ENoblewrestling said:

The % of qualifiers and placers hold pretty well with the percent of population with the exception of placing top 4, wouldn’t you agree? 

Here is the percentages based on actual entries

  Entry % Placer % Qual % Top 4 %
1A 46.56% 22.32% 24.55% 17.86%
2A 53.44% 77.68% 75.45% 82.14%
         
1A 30.60% 10.71% 13.84% 5.36%
2A 31.36% 25.00% 23.66% 23.21%
3A 38.03% 64.29% 62.50% 71.43%

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Galagore said:

I think there is one the key point that you glossed over, which I put in bold faced font. Sometimes we tend to think people just "know" Indiana wrestling and "what it means" to be a "ticket rounder" or a qualifier. Guessing your experience is closer to reality. Especially if your college aspirations take you outside the 4-5 state area.

100% - They couldn’t believe me when I said you win or go home at regional , semi state and Friday night. I found this with pretty much every school we talked to outside of the Midwest belt. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, ENoblewrestling said:

I took a kid to a school in Michigan who told me our one class system was awesome, because you could really get an idea of the level of our kids. 

Eric Guerrero said similar things at our fall clinic a few years back.

Michigan Knows - my son wanted warm weather. We tried Arkansas , NC , Georgia. The only coach who even spoke to us was UNC Pembroke and coach “OT” was honest and great.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think if it had been 2 classes he may have qualified and placed back to back. I could be wrong on that - but had that been the case the “accolades” would be there.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, ENoblewrestling said:

I took a kid to a school in Michigan who told me our one class system was awesome, because you could really get an idea of the level of our kids. 

Eric Guerrero said similar things at our fall clinic a few years back.

Eric Guerrero doesn't care about state accolades, he looks at national accolades when recruiting. 

Carson Brewer is a perfect example, how did he get a D1 scholarship before he ever placed at the Indiana state finals. He had a hefty amount of national success.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lucky for us another area wrestler attended the college he has decided to attend. And told his coach to go watch him as he was an upcoming kid. That coach traveled over to a tourney we did called IHPO and watched him wreslte a few matches. Basically told me there he wanted him.  

It all worked out , but if kids who don’t wreslte full time , don’t compete nationally all the time want to get out of the 4/5 state recruiting area - having that state placer next to your name helps. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

None of this can happen until the IHSAA changes its philosophy on classes.  Right now, the IHSAA only sees sports as Team (classed) or Individual (no classes).  The only way to change this is to partner with other individual sports and make our case.

Best case scenario is to convince the IHSAA to add a 3rd category:

  • Team (football, basketball, etc.)
  • Group Individual (cross country, swimming, etc.)
  • 1v1 Individual (wrestling, tennis, ?any others?)

Cross country has 100 individuals racing against everyone at once, so the top 8 are the 8 best.  Wrestling (and tennis) have head-to-head match-ups that eliminate individuals before they can compete against everyone, so a true top 8 isn't possible.  This is an argument for wrestlebacks, too, but that is a different discussion.

Using cross country as an example will help because Commissioner Bobby Cox has that coaching in his background.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Cosgrove said:

One single class one single champ :) wrestle backs in semi state and.... wrestle backs to 3rd place AFTER Friday night death match :) thats it. 

Says the guy with 60 kids in his Room and 100 in the club. 😬 

The prestige is great , for sure. When it comes to recruiting for college - the coaches outside our Midwest belt do not understand how Indiana works. And won’t even look at a kid who is a Semi State kid.  And for a kid like my son who did not do the youth circuit , did not do a lot of off season tourneys he doesn’t have the accolades as others. Had we lived in Michigan , I would say he would be a two time placer. That’s an assumption yes.  But an educated one. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

If we kept the 16 man bracket for 2A and just had an 8 man bracket for 1A, 1A teams would literally DOUBLE their state qualifiers. 

Here is a little more info based on percentages

  Student % Placer % Qual % Top 4 %
1A 22.10% 22.32% 24.55% 17.86%
2A 77.90% 77.68% 75.45% 82.14%
         
1A 12.14% 10.71% 13.84% 5.36%
2A 24.14% 25.00% 23.66% 23.21%
3A 63.72% 64.29% 62.50% 71.43%

And get a watered down medal from a tournament nobody attended.  Leave it alone.  It's the best high school event in the nation.  

If you're worried about your kid getting recruited, get to the national tournaments and do some marketing with where you want to go.  There's not a whole lot of full-ride wrestling money anyway.

Side note Joe...just IMHO a chance to "medal" is not going to be the deciding factor of whether a kid wants to wrestle or not.  You either like this sport or you don't, and no amount of hardware is going to change a kid's mind.  So forfeits won't go down simply because the tournament is classed.  The only thing that goes down is the excitement in mid-Feb.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Bigyusm said:

Says the guy with 60 kids in his Room and 100 in the club. 😬 

The prestige is great , for sure. When it comes to recruiting for college - the coaches outside our Midwest belt do not understand how Indiana works. And won’t even look at a kid who is a Semi State kid.  And for a kid like my son who did not do the youth circuit , did not do a lot of off season tourneys he doesn’t have the accolades as others. Had we lived in Michigan , I would say he would be a two time placer. That’s an assumption yes.  But an educated one. 

This reminds me of rants saying stuff just isnt fair.... I've coach rooms with only 20 kids and maybe 15 club kids. Now I am at a big program which is fun. 

If you look at posts above saying how some kids have got noticed from national tournaments.... seems like that is the stuff to do and keep working on the offseasons. Problem is with ALOT of programs and wrestlers "they ONLY wrestle during the season" those guys may succeed and maybe be a state qualifier but... a state champion is a LONG shot. I HATE classes wrestling. I look at Illinois their top class 3A is VERY competitive now 2A it is ran by just a frew programs and same with 1A same few programs. All that it does is allow more guys to get medals.... I can tell you now our state qualifiers can beat some of their 1A state champions. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lol not fair ? Dude don’t make me kick you in your good knee.  

Going into only training during the season is a small school problem where to even have sports the coaches need every athlete possible.  

It’s a simple thing , everyone can’t go do national tournaments , everyone doesn’t have the resources to do that. Small schools don’t have the money to hire or attract the best coaches nor the rooms.  It’s an uphill battle , but it’s a battle many of us take on to help our kids. 

As I learned this past year , going outside of our Midwest recruiting area - college coaches do not know how Indiana is and not seeing state placer next to a kids name that doesn’t do national tournaments you can’t even get in the door. Had we been a class system those same kids would have that “accolade” and it would open doors.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Cosgrove said:

This reminds me of rants saying stuff just isnt fair.... I've coach rooms with only 20 kids and maybe 15 club kids. Now I am at a big program which is fun. 

If you look at posts above saying how some kids have got noticed from national tournaments.... seems like that is the stuff to do and keep working on the offseasons. Problem is with ALOT of programs and wrestlers "they ONLY wrestle during the season" those guys may succeed and maybe be a state qualifier but... a state champion is a LONG shot. I HATE classes wrestling. I look at Illinois their top class 3A is VERY competitive now 2A it is ran by just a frew programs and same with 1A same few programs. All that it does is allow more guys to get medals.... I can tell you now our state qualifiers can beat some of their 1A state champions. 

 

The authority on wrestling Brennan Cosgrove has spoken. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Bigyusm said:

Here’s the thing I have gathered as my son was looking to wreslte in college.  He originally wanted to wreslte in warm weather and we reached out to many schools. Most of them don’t even realize the way Indiana is set up if they are not recruiting here.  He took a visit at UNC Pembroke and the coach and I had a long conversation about it. He basically told me he needs more accolades. He was a Semi State qualifier at that point and a part time wrestler.  It didn’t matter he had wrestled a NC 3rd place finisher in the summer to a 2-1 loss and beat another NC placer 3-1.  Or took a loss to a NJ placer 4-2. He was just a semi state qualifier. Now he is a State Qualifier - I would venture to say in the class system he might have placed and the “accolades” would be there with his name.  

 

I like the oh oh we are tough to get to state machismo - but when coaches from outsid our recruiting area don’t see placers they aren’t as interested. 

Until this year my son was a one time state qualifier that got pinned on Friday night. He still got a good number offers from schools from all divisions of college wrestling. Sure high school wrestling helps, but I assure you that coaches look at WAY more than that. Get in the car and go find good kids to beat. Regardless of where you finish at high school state, if you go to a major tourney or a good dual and show out your email and phone will blow up. I assure you that 20 times as many college coaches are at super 32, flonationals, Virginia beach, Fargo, National duals, and even Disney duals. Go there and make a statement. 

True story.. I took  team to Disney duals this year. My team went out there and warmed up by themselves. It was a nice hard warm up. Very few teams were moving and getting after it like we were. We were not in an All star division mind you. I hade three college coaches before we wrestled come up and give me cards and ask who was uncommitted before we wrestled a match. I has Jalen Comer form Mooresville on my team. I pointed him out to a JUCO coach. The kid was preparing to enter the work force after high school. Long story short he signed with that team! Jaden did get 4th at state. 

Another one.. Sam Osho from Avon. Sam was committed to go into the military after high school. I asked Sam if he would hold off and keep wrestling and come to Disney duals with the team. He started to go with Mason Miranda to workouts at Marian. The nest thing you know Sam is wrestling at Marian and is a NAIA national qualifier a year later. Sam never made it to state. 

With all of that said, there are different routes for all of these kids. The way you finish at state is a very small part of the college process. My biggest advice for kids that want to wrestle at the next level is as follows:

1. Take your ACT or SAT early and often. After you take them get the results and practice taking the test over and over. From the end of your sophomore year on take Khan Academy or other study programs at least 30 mins a day 5 days a week until you score high. A high SAT or ACT can make things very easy for a college to sign you.

2. Keep you GPA above a 3.5. See above.

3. Stop putting dumb crap on social media. After grades that is the next thing these guys will check. Be squeaky clean or just delete it all together.

4. Wrestle as much as possible. Surround yourselves with like minded college prospects and find good competition.   

5. Reach out to the colleges first. Let them know that you are interested in them. Keep them updated on your career. 

6. Take your time and ask questions. I assure you that you will know when its right. Look at Osho and Comer. They waited until after school and found spots. 

7. If you put in the work. Wrestle 24/7/365 and keep improving, there will be an opportunity. Believe in yourself and make it happen. Don't be too proud to ask others to help.  

BTW.. what about big school wrestlers that have big school studs in front of them in the line up. Our back up 132 just won Indy Nationals. I assure you that he wants to wrestle in college too! I works both ways.

Edited by Mattyb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/19/2019 at 6:05 PM, SWINfan said:

If you split to two classes, is Mater Dei forced to wrestle with the smaller schools?  Is there any other school that voluntarily wrestles out of their "class" for the Duals State Title?  With less than 500 students, would MD kids be better off dominating "Class A" or competing with the big boys?  

Cathedral voluntarily stayed in 3A this year despite being a couple slots into 2A territory with the new classification rules demanding at least 7 slots filled to be counted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Kookie953 said:

And get a watered down medal from a tournament nobody attended.  Leave it alone.  It's the best high school event in the nation.  

If you're worried about your kid getting recruited, get to the national tournaments and do some marketing with where you want to go.  There's not a whole lot of full-ride wrestling money anyway.

Side note Joe...just IMHO a chance to "medal" is not going to be the deciding factor of whether a kid wants to wrestle or not.  You either like this sport or you don't, and no amount of hardware is going to change a kid's mind.  So forfeits won't go down simply because the tournament is classed.  The only thing that goes down is the excitement in mid-Feb.

You obviously missed this...

Year Teams Forfeits Per team
2019 307 1014 3.30
2018 311 981 3.15
2017 308 845 2.74
2016 308 860 2.79
2015 308 740 2.40
2014      
2013 312 649 2.08
2012 312 684 2.19
2011 312 617 1.98

It is interesting that most states give away watered down medals and have very good attendance. Heck the Ohio state finals sells out every year and people are on their boards asking for tickets the week of state. i'd surely hate to have that problem in Indiana. Emotional responses to why we should keep doing the things we are doing don't get me going. Look above at our forfeits, it is getting bad, REALLY bad. Eight years ago I thought almost two forfeits per team was bad, now it's almost doubled. 

As @Bigyusm said, they tried marketing themselves and not having a state placement or even being a qualifier hurt them. For smaller school recruiting coaches don't have the time to look in depth at 100's of kids and if they were knocked out by a state champion in the ticket round. 

It's not just about giving watered down medals or recruiting, it's about the health and growth of the sport. Small schools are struggling mightily and it doesn't seem to be trending in a positive direction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

Until this year my son was a one time state qualifier that got pinned on Friday night. He still got a good number offers from schools from all divisions of college wrestling. Sure high school wrestling helps, but I assure you that coaches look at WAY more than that. Get in the car and go find good kids to beat. Regardless of where you finish at high school state, if you go to a major tourney or a good dual and show out your email and phone will blow up. I assure you that 20 times as many college coaches are at super 32, flonationals, Virginia beach, Fargo, National duals, and even Disney duals. Go there and make a statement. 

True story.. I took  team to Disney duals this year. My team went out there and warmed up by themselves. It was a nice hard warm up. Very few teams were moving and getting after it like we were. We were not in an All star division mind you. I hade three college coaches before we wrestled come up and give me cards and ask who was uncommitted before we wrestled a match. I has Jalen Comer form Mooresville on my team. I pointed him out to a JUCO coach. The kid was preparing to enter the work force after high school. Long story short he signed with that team! Jaden did get 4th at state. 

Another one.. Sam Osho from Avon. Sam was committed to go into the military after high school. I asked Sam if he would hold off and keep wrestling and come to Disney duals with the team. He started to go with Mason Miranda to workouts at Marian. The nest thing you know Sam is wrestling at Marian and is a NAIA national qualifier a year later. Sam never made it to state. 

With all of that said, there are different routes for all of these kids. The way you finish at state is a very small part of the college process. My biggest advice for kids that want to wrestle at the next level is as follows:

1. Take your ACT or SAT early and often. After you take them get the results and practice taking the test over and over. From the end of your sophomore year on take Khan Academy or other study programs at least 30 mins a day 5 days a week until you score high. A high SAT or ACT can make things very easy for a college to sign you.

2. Keep you GPA above a 3.5. See above.

3. Stop putting dumb crap on social media. After grades that is the next thing these guys will check. Be squeaky clean or just delete it all together.

4. Wrestle as much as possible. Surround yourselves with like minded college prospects and find good competition.   

5. Reach out to the colleges first. Let them know that you are interested in them. Keep them updated on your career. 

6. Take your time and ask questions. I assure you that you will know when its right. Look at Osho and Comer. They waited until after school and found spots. 

7. If you put in the work. Wrestle 24/7/365 and keep improving, there will be an opportunity. Believe in yourself and make it happen. Don't be too proud to ask other to help.  

Post of the year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

Until this year my son was a one time state qualifier that got pinned on Friday night. He still got a good number offers from schools from all divisions of college wrestling. Sure high school wrestling helps, but I assure you that coaches look at WAY more than that. Get in the car and go find good kids to beat. Regardless of where you finish at high school state, if you go to a major tourney or a good dual and show out your email and phone will blow up. I assure you that 20 times as many college coaches are at super 32, flonationals, Virginia beach, Fargo, National duals, and even Disney duals. Go there and make a statement. 

True story.. I took  team to Disney duals this year. My team went out there and warmed up by themselves. It was a nice hard warm up. Very few teams were moving and getting after it like we were. We were not in an All star division mind you. I hade three college coaches before we wrestled come up and give me cards and ask who was uncommitted before we wrestled a match. I has Jalen Comer form Mooresville on my team. I pointed him out to a JUCO coach. The kid was preparing to enter the work force after high school. Long story short he signed with that team! Jaden did get 4th at state. 

Another one.. Sam Osho from Avon. Sam was committed to go into the military after high school. I asked Sam if he would hold off and keep wrestling and come to Disney duals with the team. He started to go with Mason Miranda to workouts at Marian. The nest thing you know Sam is wrestling at Marian and is a NAIA national qualifier a year later. Sam never made it to state. 

With all of that said, there are different routes for all of these kids. The way you finish at state is a very small part of the college process. My biggest advice for kids that want to wrestle at the next level is as follows:

1. Take your ACT or SAT early and often. After you take them get the results and practice taking the test over and over. From the end of your sophomore year on take Khan Academy or other study programs at least 30 mins a day 5 days a week until you score high. A high SAT or ACT can make things very easy for a college to sign you.

2. Keep you GPA above a 3.5. See above.

3. Stop putting dumb crap on social media. After grades that is the next thing these guys will check. Be squeaky clean or just delete it all together.

4. Wrestle as much as possible. Surround yourselves with like minded college prospects and find good competition.   

5. Reach out to the colleges first. Let them know that you are interested in them. Keep them updated on your career. 

6. Take your time and ask questions. I assure you that you will know when its right. Look at Osho and Comer. They waited until after school and found spots. 

7. If you put in the work. Wrestle 24/7/365 and keep improving, there will be an opportunity. Believe in yourself and make it happen. Don't be too proud to ask other to help.  

BTW.. what about big school wrestlers that have big school studs in front of them in the line up. Our back up 132 just won Indy Nationals. I assure you that he wants to wrestle in college too! I works both ways.

DI level kids as Carson was is an exception, not the rule. He has some bad luck his first two years in high school with injuries and such and then was upset on Friday night as a junior. He shoulda/coulda/woulda been a three time placer without a little bad luck. 

When you took him to the national events he won matches and either placed really high or was very close to placing. That kind of stuff will get college coaches attention more than placing at state. He is an EXCEPTION and everyone knows it. He's the first kid I know that as a senior without ever medaling at state was in the national rankings.

For kids that are NAIA, DII, DIII level going to the national events won't get much attention from college coaches because they are going to win very few matches. Marketing yourself to college coaches as a kid that went to semi-state, but has beaten Ohio and Michigan state placers doesn't sound as good as saying you were a state placer. Heck I beat All-Americans in college, but it surely doesn't sound as good as saying I was an All-American. Most of the recruiting forms don't have an area for "which state placers from other states have you defeated.'

Getting more kids, more positive exposure is always a good thing. More kids with the parade of champions in the hall, the ceremonies celebrating placing at state, etc. will help the sport more than anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Before I get.... "but your kid goes to a big school"!!! Please note that I spent many years creating opportunities and leading teams for kids from all over the state to wrestle on the national stage as youths. I really want to see every kid that wants to go to college to wrestle to do so. I am just giving my best advice to help. And.. I get that national trips are expensive and getting national exposure is expensive in general. with that said, please see number 7. Start a GoFundMe, ask your local club, ask family, etc... 

Dang it Joe!!! I couldn't even get my disclaimer out before you busted me out!!!! 

Really.. I am just trying to put out some heart felt advice.

Other advice for small town kids.... Get ahold of Bryan Bailey and get to a national event. He has spots for you. 

Edited by Mattyb
Joes too fast

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.