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MackG

Did not look like Viduya was pinned....

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I should have prefaced this thread by stating that my intention wasn’t to take anything away from Asa.  I apologize if anyone took it that way.  

He is clearly a great, great wrestler, and that cradle was a mega eye-popper.  Rooting for him and all the other seniors headed to Bloomington!!  Excited to see that the future will bring!!  Go Hoosiers!!

Edited by MackG

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13 hours ago, MrsTeamGarcia said:

C7802A83-D993-4E9E-AA2B-F2EEA024F8B3.jpeg

We shouldn't be talking about if Viduya was pinned or not,  we should be talking about the filthy move that cradle was.   Filthy dirty cradle.   Reminds me  of a J Jaggers shin cradle special.   Didn't Jaggers pin a guy in the NCAA finals with that move. 

Edited by Wrestling Scholar

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Again. Not taking anything from Asa... but if anything, that pic proves that the ref was not in position to see if Viduya’s left shoulder/scapula is down, and it suggests that his left side was, in fact, not down.  

 

Further, the still photo accurately represents the amount of time the ref took to count what was supposed to be a two count. Basically, he took no time at all  because he never verified that both sides were down and there was exactly one second between the time that Viduya was in the position that the pin was called in and the mat was smacked.  In that second, the ref went from being on his feet to smacking the mat.  One second.  The rule is a two count.

 

Yes, filthy, filthy cradle.  But there is no rule that says if somebody hits a filthy cradle on you that you are automatically pinned.

 

Wrestling Scholar, we absolutely should be discussing this.  Because the whole point is that kids who work hard all season to make the finals should be protected from errant officiating by a Review Official at the head table.  

 

Edited by MackG

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I'm not sure how anyone sees, from the picture posted above, that his left side wasn't down. Could the ref have taken a little better look? Probably. Was he pinned? I believe the picture shows he was. 

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48 minutes ago, MackG said:

Again. Not taking anything from Asa... but if anything, that pic proves that the ref was not in position to see if Viduya’s left shoulder/scapula is down, and it suggests that his left side was, in fact, not down.  

 

Further, the still photo accurately represents the amount of time the ref took to count what was supposed to be a two count. Basically, he took no time at all  because he never verified that both sides were down and there was exactly one second between the time that Viduya was in the position that the pin was called in and the mat was smacked.  In that second, the ref went from being on his feet to smacking the mat.  One second.  The rule is a two count.

 

Yes, filthy, filthy cradle.  But there is no rule that says if somebody hits a filthy cradle on you that you are automatically pinned.

 

Wrestling Scholar, we absolutely should be discussing this.  Because the whole point is that kids who work hard all season to make the finals should be protected from errant officiating by a Review Official at the head table.  

 

I know you mentioned scapula/shoulder being down for the pin.   But the middle of the back should be also included for the pin.    You still cant ascertain the exact view  the ref had, but from the picture the lower part of back looks "pinned" to me.  Kind of looks like the scapula is there also but not sure.

pinnng area.jpg

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18 minutes ago, WrestleMan said:

I'm not sure how anyone sees, from the picture posted above, that his left side wasn't down. Could the ref have taken a little better look? Probably. Was he pinned? I believe the picture shows he was. 

 

I disagree re: the pic.  Agree on the ref not taking a look.  Should verify position and that two seconds have passed.  Neither happened.

The angle of the torso is tilted upward to the left side. 

 

3B78F23C-81AE-482A-AC84-2A275184619B.jpeg

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37 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

I know you mentioned scapula/shoulder being down for the pin.   But the middle of the back should be also included for the pin.    You still cant ascertain the exact view  the ref had, but from the picture the lower part of back looks "pinned" to me.  Kind of looks like the scapula is there also but not sure.

pinnng area.jpg

 

This is what it says in the rulebook:

 

ART. 1 . . . A fall occurs when any part of both shoulders or both scapula of either wrestler are in contact with the mat for two seconds. The two seconds (one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two) shall be a silent count and shall start only after the referee is in position to observe if a fall is imminent. A fall is imminent when any part of both shoulders or both scapula of either wrestler are in contact with the mat. The shoulders or scapula must be held in continuous contact with the mat. A fall terminates wrestling. (Photos 5-6) 

 

 

 

Per the rules.... this was clearly an errant call.    

Edited by MackG

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I know lets complain about something that we have no control over that will solve everything! When you get put on your back you leave it into the refs hands. Don't let someone else dictate your success.

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11 minutes ago, Y21AB said:

I know lets complain about something that we have no control over that will solve everything! When you get put on your back you leave it into the refs hands. Don't let someone else dictate your success.

 

 

Ah but see, we COULD do something about it in the future by having a new rule to review errant calls. 

 

There would have to be a limit to reviews, but that’s why they have been installing this rule in many sports at many levels. 

 

Refs are humans and humans make errors. 

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1 minute ago, Y21AB said:

NCAA has a challenge rule, however falls are not challengeable.

 

 

Interesting. I did not know that.  But 1 second in College vs 2 seconds in High School could be a consideration in reviewing falls in HS. 

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If this were the case after every fall someone would challenge. Imagine how much longer tournaments would take. 

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On 2/16/2019 at 8:30 PM, MackG said:

Am I wrong?

you might be right? did anyone show the ref this picture? or maybe the video? they might have been able to rewrestle the match once seeing the evidence?

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On 2/17/2019 at 4:17 PM, Loki27 said:

You have two state champions battling for a state title and you call a very questionable and very fast pin fall (IMO). Ruined what could’ve been an epic match. Fans lost that one.

I don’t believe the match was ruined. The main objective in wrestling is to get a pin. The way the crowd erupted was proof of their excitement. Asa aggesivly took advantage of the position he was presented with and locked up a nasty cradle. From my perspective, that boy was stuck. The rest is history. 

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4 minutes ago, 4U2NV said:

I don’t believe the match was ruined. The main objective in wrestling is to get a pin. The way the crowd erupted was proof of their excitement. Asa aggesivly took advantage of the position he was presented with and locked up a nasty cradle. From my perspective, that boy was stuck. The rest is history. 

Match was ruined 

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2 hours ago, MackG said:

 

I disagree re: the pic.  Agree on the ref not taking a look.  Should verify position and that two seconds have passed.  Neither happened.

The angle of the torso is tilted upward to the left side. 

 

3B78F23C-81AE-482A-AC84-2A275184619B.jpeg

clearly not pinned as you can see illistrated by this triangle 

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56 minutes ago, BackyardChamp said:

clearly not pinned as you can see illistrated by this triangle 

Clearly he was pinned because that's what is says on the official record of the match!!!

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3 hours ago, MackG said:

The two seconds (one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two) shall be a silent count and shall start only after the referee is in position to observe if a fall is imminent. 

Normally when I've been watching matches, if the pin is imminent (defensive wrestlers is rocking side to side maybe) as soon as the top wrestler "settles" the shoulders the pin is called. Do officials realistically do this silent one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two count with shoulders on the mat?

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Quick, somebody post a still shot of Garcia flat on his back as he rolled through so we can argue if he self pinned or not.

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