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6 hours ago, Rookies03 said:

Unless the wrestler winning commits a Flagrant Misconduct then he could lose but obviously this would be a pretty rare situation. 

This is no longer the case. The rule was changed a couple of years ago. The offender would still be declared the winner, however, any team points earned within the tournament or dual would be negated and be penalized -3 team points for the flagrant misconduct. The offended wrestler would still technically be the loser and score 0-points. There are two separate examples in the 2018-19 NFHS  Wrestling Case/Manual the describe this exact thing. Page 27  5.11.4 SITUATION B & C.

Also, if this occurred in a tournament neither wrestler would advance, as, technically there is no winner.

Edited by jlittlejohn
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You are wrong, blaming a scorekeeper because they didn't know whether the match continued or not is NOT their job. Their job is to run the clock and make sure the score is correct on the board. They s

As stated above, I do believe the rule states that all corrections to match scores must be done prior to the start of the next match on that mat.  That is an unfortunate way to lose.  Official scorer

As soon as they he gets out if criteria. Section 11 ART 4 b once a tech fall has been earned, the offensive wrestler cannot lose the match.   

My Dad is a retired Athletic Director. For tournament events, he paid every worker (except concessions which the Band worked to earn funds).

News alert-- If you have volunteered to be a timer or scorekeeper for a Sectional or Regional, your Athletic Director is either clueless or taking advantage of your generosity because YOU SHOULD BE GETTING PAID.

The host site is responsible for obtaining competent (adult...see below) scorers, timekeepers, etc & the cost for those tournament expenses is covered by the gate receipts or the IHSAA if there is a deficit.

Here are some excerpts from:

2018‐19 Wrestling Tournament Series General Rules:

The center school shall provide and be responsible for tickets, ticket takers/sellers, ushers, announcers, scorers, timekeepers, all necessary equipment for conducting the game or contest, necessary facilities for the competing teams and those directly affiliated with the competing teams (such as the principal, athletic director, coaches, student managers, etc.), facilities for spectators/fans and crowd control (hereinafter known as the local arrangements).

Officials A. Bench officials, etc. are to be selected by the center principal and tourney director. Only qualified adult help shall be used as official scorekeepers and timers.

Financial Terms A. Sectionals and Regionals 1. Tournament expenses such as officials, help, etc. shall be paid by the center school from the gross receipts.

IHSAA shall reimburse center school when a deficit occurs.

 

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21 minutes ago, slice60 said:

My Dad is a retired Athletic Director. For tournament events, he paid every worker (except concessions which the Band worked to earn funds).

News alert-- If you have volunteered to be a timer or scorekeeper for a Sectional or Regional, your Athletic Director is either clueless or taking advantage of your generosity because YOU SHOULD BE GETTING PAID.

The host site is responsible for obtaining competent (adult...see below) scorers, timekeepers, etc & the cost for those tournament expenses is covered by the gate receipts or the IHSAA if there is a deficit.

Here are some excerpts from:

2018‐19 Wrestling Tournament Series General Rules:

The center school shall provide and be responsible for tickets, ticket takers/sellers, ushers, announcers, scorers, timekeepers, all necessary equipment for conducting the game or contest, necessary facilities for the competing teams and those directly affiliated with the competing teams (such as the principal, athletic director, coaches, student managers, etc.), facilities for spectators/fans and crowd control (hereinafter known as the local arrangements).

Officials A. Bench officials, etc. are to be selected by the center principal and tourney director. Only qualified adult help shall be used as official scorekeepers and timers.

Financial Terms A. Sectionals and Regionals 1. Tournament expenses such as officials, help, etc. shall be paid by the center school from the gross receipts.

IHSAA shall reimburse center school when a deficit occurs.

 

It still doesn't mean that the scorekeepers should know every nuance of a rule, nor be responsible for a misapplication by a referee. Are score keepers now supposed to call locking hands or help the ref if the kid reports to the mat without his shoe laces secured?

The coaches and referee is the one who should bear the burden of a misapplication of a rule. 

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6 hours ago, Rookies03 said:

Tournament match scoring errors:

A recordable error must be corrected prior to the offended wrestler leaving the mat area if additional wrestling is necessary (Mat Area: Rule 2-1-5: the wrestling mat plus 10 feet). Otherwise, when additional wrestling is NOT necessary, the offended wrestler or coach must remain in the mat area.

A computational error must be corrected prior to the next match in which either wrestler competes. Again, if additional wrestling is necessary, it must be corrected prior to the offended wrestler leaving the mat area.

I would consider this to be a computational error as the adding up of points was not correctly determined during the action.  Therefore, this could have been corrected if determined prior to either wrestler wrestling their next match since the error would not have required re-wrestling.  

Now maybe the referee, scorer and coaches could not determine that a computation error occurred (they couldnt specifically remember the score and situation) however if they could then it could have been corrected.

You are correct...

NFHS 2018-19 NFHS Wrestling Rules   Page 34  Rule 6.5.a.2...

...Errors involving the computation of match score must be corrected prior to the next match in which either wrestler competes. If the error necessitates additional wrestling, it must be corrected prior to the offended contestant leaving the mat area and prior to the start of the next match on that mat.

 

Being that this situation did not require any additional wrestling and if the score could be accurately computed to demonstrate that the technical fall had certainly been "earned" prior to any subsequent action by the defensive wrestler then this could have been corrected prior to either wrestler's next match.

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Yes, the referee and the coach of the kid who got pinned should have caught this. But since you seem to disagree with anything I post, I'm sure you will disagree with this statement. If my opinion, anyone who is hired to be a scorekeeper for a tournament event should know the basic scorekeeping rules, including the rule for tech falls. If the deficit is 15, the match is over-- that's a rule, not a nuance of a rule.

The scorekeeper's JOB is to keep the correct score &, if necessary, ask for clarification from the ref in regards to scoring. Locked hands is not related to scoring. Your examples were silly.

Since the ref did not realize that the deficit had reached 15, the scorekeeper & timer should have called the ref to the table immediately after the pin was called to sort out what just happened. The scorekeeper shares the burden of getting things right. 

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26 minutes ago, jlittlejohn said:

You are correct...

NFHS 2018-19 NFHS Wrestling Rules   Page 34  Rule 6.5.a.2...

...Errors involving the computation of match score must be corrected prior to the next match in which either wrestler competes. If the error necessitates additional wrestling, it must be corrected prior to the offended contestant leaving the mat area and prior to the start of the next match on that mat.

 

Being that this situation did not require any additional wrestling and if the score could be accurately computed to demonstrate that the technical fall had certainly been "earned" prior to any subsequent action by the defensive wrestler then this could have been corrected prior to either wrestler's next match.

As the initial post stated that the error was caught about 20 minutes after this match, you're saying that whoever made the decision (tournament director &/or refs) that the mistake could not be corrected was wrong too? Oh boy. That's not good.

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14 minutes ago, slice60 said:

Yes, the referee and the coach of the kid who got pinned should have caught this. But since you seem to disagree with anything I post, I'm sure you will disagree with this statement. If my opinion, anyone who is hired to be a scorekeeper for a tournament event should know the basic scorekeeping rules, including the rule for tech falls. If the deficit is 15, the match is over-- that's a rule, not a nuance of a rule.

The scorekeeper's JOB is to keep the correct score &, if necessary, ask for clarification from the ref in regards to scoring. Locked hands is not related to scoring. Your examples were silly.

Since the ref did not realize that the deficit had reached 15, the scorekeeper & timer should have called the ref to the table immediately after the pin was called to sort out what just happened. The scorekeeper shares the burden of getting things right. 

You are wrong, blaming a scorekeeper because they didn't know whether the match continued or not is NOT their job. Their job is to run the clock and make sure the score is correct on the board. They should not be required to read the rule book before operating a score clock. 

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Why cant there be checks and balances. If the scorekeeper is being paid, then why does he not have the right to alert the referee of the tech fall. Then the referee and coaches can work out the correct outcome. My thought would be if this match was fast paced with a lot of quick moves, then the only one that would have caught the tech fall would be the scorekeeper? The coaches and referee would be keeping up with the moves, and scores as they happen. Am I off base with that logic? 

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20 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

It still doesn't mean that the scorekeepers should know every nuance of a rule, nor be responsible for a misapplication by a referee. Are score keepers now supposed to call locking hands or help the ref if the kid reports to the mat without his shoe laces secured?

The coaches and referee is the one who should bear the burden of a misapplication of a rule. 

I must agree with Y2 on this. As officials we are responsible for the accuracy of the scoring of the match. As hectic as it can get at times, we must be able to keep track of the score in our head regardless of what the scoreboard shows and take the time to make corrections and/or review the scoring if necessary; especially, when approaching a technical fall, for this exact reason. That being said, there are also times such as this when it may become necessary to rely and some help from the coaches to ensure that we got it right. We can't be to prideful as to not accept input or be willing to admit we made a mistake or missed something in order to get it right.

However, this does exemplify the importance of quality table help and sound mechanics from the officials. As officials we've got to take the time before an event to review our signals and ascertain the experience level and abilities of the table help. When we too quickly flash scoring and other signals it creates opportunity for error. As quick paced as many matches are we have to be patient when signaling and attentive to the rolling score. As an official, the official should certainly bare the brunt of the fault in this situation; but, at the same time, the coach does have a responsibility to the wrestler to be tuned into every facet of the match and be prepared to advocate for their athlete.

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20 minutes ago, slice60 said:

As the initial post stated that the error was caught about 20 minutes after this match, you're saying that whoever made the decision (tournament director &/or refs) that the mistake could not be corrected was wrong too? Oh boy. That's not good.

As long as neither wrestler had wrestled their next match this was correctable, if the review of the computation of the score confirmed there was an error; however, once either wrestler begins their next match the opportunity to make the correction ends. If this were to occur in a placement match the 30-minute rule would be enforced being that there would be no additional matches to be wrestled and then team score being effected would be the point of contention for correction which is limited to 30-minutes of the official posting of team scores. Keep in mind this scenario applies strictly to tournaments.

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I think everybody is right here in some way and the argument here is too much about the words blame and responsibility.  First of all, no one seems to be 100% to blame here.  I agree with Y2 that the scorekeeper isn't  to blame for the situation. But I think we could all agree that an attentive scorekeeper with a decent understanding of the basic rules and the confidence to question the referee in the midst of a bunch of commotion, could have helped avoid the situation from ever leaving the mat.  

In such a scenario, I can imagine there was a lot going on.  A kid that comes within a hair of losing turns it around and gets the fall...  there had to be people celebrating and yelling.  The kid that got pinned and his coach had to be wondering what just happened and almost stunned by the turn of events.  So in that moment, I can see how something like this could (not should, could) get missed.  A scorekeeper that is focused and calm enough to ask the referee about the tech fall would have been greatly beneficial, but whether paid or not, I'd think you'd get that 50% of the time AT BEST.

No one has answered my question from earlier though.....  did this situation cause the kid to be eliminated from the tournament or just place lower than expected.  That doesn't matter in determining what should have happened and how the rule should be applied...  I'm just curious since no one has mentioned the specifics of the participants in the match.

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46 minutes ago, 1prouddad said:

All I know is this would NEVER happen in the dirty south with the EMD and Castle fans around. Hell, they call “Two” in unison, so a TF would not get by without a fan running onto the mat. 

Out of curiosity, what is the "dirty south"? I am new to the sport and I I am from south of Bloomington.

Edited by IMrule
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10 hours ago, IMrule said:

Out of curiosity, what is the "dirty south"? I am new to the sport and I I am from south of Bloomington.

The Dirty South is intellectual property of TripleB Enterprises and applies to all teams that lock horns at the Evansville SS. 

While Evansville and Newburgh are both dirty and in the south, they aren’t exclusively “The Dirty Dirty”. 

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This is squarely on the official and the coach.  Both should know the situation on the mat as it relates to the score.  Additionally, both should know the rules clearly.  There is no excuse for this to happen, especially if it involves the determination of advancement in the state tournament.  

This may be part of a larger problem of not having enough people involved in the sport and becoming officials.  It may also be a problem with rules knowledge and mentoring or educating officials properly.  This is common in all sports not just ours.

 

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19 hours ago, SWINfan said:

No one has answered my question from earlier though.....  did this situation cause the kid to be eliminated from the tournament or just place lower than expected.

It was a semi finals match, kid went on to place 4th. Certainly hurt his chances this Saturday though.

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I think the only way this would happen is in a defensive pin situation. If the wrestler who was ahead by 15 never had his position change then the 3 near fall points never would have been awarded. But if he "scored" a reversal for the wrestler down by 15 then the match should have stopped when the position changed due to a 15 point spread. The 15 points would have happened before the 2 for reversal. 

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1 hour ago, Faithcoach said:

I think the only way this would happen is in a defensive pin situation. If the wrestler who was ahead by 15 never had his position change then the 3 near fall points never would have been awarded. But if he "scored" a reversal for the wrestler down by 15 then the match should have stopped when the position changed due to a 15 point spread. The 15 points would have happened before the 2 for reversal. 

If the offensive wrestler was subject to a defensive fall, after having 'earned' a technical fall, the match would then be stopped and the offensive wrestler would still be declared the winner; again, once the technical fall has been 'earned', the offensive wrestler cannot lose the match. If the technical fall is "earned" while the defensive wrestler is in near-fall criteria you simply hold off on awarding the near-fall score (that has already been "earned") to allow the offensive wrestler to continue to work for the fall until the near-fall situation has concluded; by fall or surrendering the near-fall scoring hold or maneuver and/or position. 

2018-19 NFHS Wrestling Rules   Page 23   Rule 5-1-4-a&b

a.  if a takedown or reversal, straight to near-fall criteria creates a 15-point advantage, the match shall continue until the near-fall situation has concluded.

b. once the technical fall has been earned, the offensive wrestler cannot lose the match.

Edited by jlittlejohn
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Thanks for the clarifications @jlittlejohn I wasn’t aware of the ability to change the outcome of the match if no other wrestling is needed.

So you’re saying you can’t be defensive pinned either? I would think you could as near fall is not awarded until you bring the opposing wrestler off of his back. So if you never bring him off of his back and you get pinned that means near fall criteria was never really met, similar to that you don’t get your near fall points when you pin because he never comes off of his back.

An extremely rare situations but just looking for clarification. Thanks for your input.

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4 minutes ago, bsisson said:

Thanks for the clarifications @jlittlejohn I wasn’t aware of the ability to change the outcome of the match if no other wrestling is needed.

So you’re saying you can’t be defensive pinned either? I would think you could as near fall is not awarded until you bring the opposing wrestler off of his back. So if you never bring him off of his back and you get pinned that means near fall criteria was never really met, similar to that you don’t get your near fall points when you pin because he never comes off of his back.

An extremely rare situations but just looking for clarification. Thanks for your input.

Keep in mind the specifics of this situation and the rules as quoted directly from the 2018-19 NFHS Wrestling Rules book. Various situations have different criteria for what can be changed and the time line involved, specifically, tournament (this case) vs. duals.

The term to focus on is "earned", not, awarded. Again, once the technical fall has been "earned" the offensive wrestler cannot lose. With regard to other near-fall situations, a 2 or 3 point near-fall may be earned, yet, not awarded for various reasons; most often to allow for the near-fall situation to be concluded or possibly escalated. such as, a 2 point near-fall being escalated to a 3 point near-fall within the same sequence. Near-fall is not awarded at the conclusion of fall, because, once a fall has been secured the near-fall no longer exists; near-fall is exactly that, a "near-fall" or almost a fall, therefore, once a fall has been awarded there is technically no longer a near-fall in that situation. That is why near-fall is not awarded at the conclusion of a fall. 

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