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Carmel Disciplined for Sauna Suits

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Not only does the records change for the Carmel wrestlers, but could it add wins to the wrestlers they had to forfeit against? This could mean that someone they had beat and now have to forfeit to, they will have a better record now and could’ve been the difference in getting a higher seed at sectionals if they lost out on it by winning percentage? Unlikely but could happen. 

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1 minute ago, SWSpectator said:

Not only does the records change for the Carmel wrestlers, but could it add wins to the wrestlers they had to forfeit against? This could mean that someone they had beat and now have to forfeit to, they will have a better record now and could’ve been the difference in getting a higher seed at sectionals if they lost out on it by winning percentage? Unlikely but could happen. 

An even more interesting possibility would be a head to head win.  Say Carmel guy beats a wrestler in the same sectional.  Then that win is overturned by this ruling.   Then does the wrestler who won via retroactive forfeit have a direct win over Carmel wrestler?

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13 minutes ago, SWSpectator said:

Not only does the records change for the Carmel wrestlers, but could it add wins to the wrestlers they had to forfeit against? This could mean that someone they had beat and now have to forfeit to, they will have a better record now and could’ve been the difference in getting a higher seed at sectionals if they lost out on it by winning percentage? Unlikely but could happen. 

Y2 addressed that scenario above.   The wins/losses will change, but the seeds won't change -- nor should they. 

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So if no chang in seeds what lesson is learned. Hey go ahead cheat during the season nothing really happens to you. I feel sorry for the kids that are busting their ass doing it the right way. When you look at it seems like everyone is punished but Carmel. Those kids and coaches should be disqualified they know right from wrong and still chose to do it.

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26 minutes ago, FC118 said:

I wore them all through college and we used them to jump rope in steam rooms.  I gradated college in 1984 so I was legal!  

Rules for college and high school are not always the same. In high school in the 80's they were not legal.

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13 minutes ago, jasonbk2 said:

So if no chang in seeds what lesson is learned. Hey go ahead cheat during the season nothing really happens to you. I feel sorry for the kids that are busting their ass doing it the right way. When you look at it seems like everyone is punished but Carmel. Those kids and coaches should be disqualified they know right from wrong and still chose to do it.

As discussed above, a change in seeds could harm the other wrestlers and not the Carmel wrestlers.  The guilty kids were all highly seeded (several are state ranked).  Nearly all are top seeds.  You move them down and they could knock out kids they would have been separated from until after qualification round.  I am actually shocked that they are allowed to wrestle in state tournament and that the coaches have not been suspended.  

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4 minutes ago, FC118 said:

As discussed above, a change in seeds could harm the other wrestlers and not the Carmel wrestlers.  The guilty kids were all highly seeded (several are state ranked).  Nearly all are top seeds.  You move them down and they could knock out kids they would have been separated from until after qualification round.  I am actually shocked that they are allowed to wrestle in state tournament and that the coaches have not been suspended.  

Your right it would hurt the other wrestlers and Carmel wins again. Seems like no matter what they do it benefits Carmel. Its ridiculous wrestling is about actual wrestling and continuing it to life. No better life lesson then  not  letting them wrestle and teaching them you cant cheat your way through life.

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Back in summer of 1987 I was on my states (not Indiana) Jr National team and we were issued/or given some gear.   I remember one outfit we received for being on the team  was a plastic sweat suit with my state team logos.   We thought it was cool.    I remember we  used to take  a stationary bike to our showers.   We would  turn the showers ran for while on as hot as it would go.  And we would ride the bikes with our plastic sweat suit with a sweat shirt over it. Probably not healthy in hind sight, but we made weight.

 

Edited by Wrestling Scholar

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I posted this on another thread on Facebook recently, but we are wrestling newbies as a family.  One thing I have never understood is the entire weigh-in process to begin with, moreso from an efficiency standpoint than any other reason...but if the sport was really serious about weight programs then this solution I thought about makes sense.

If I ruled the world then everyone would weigh in mat-side.  Have one of those old school scales set to the proper weight for that mat.  Have each wrestler step on the scale when they are on-deck.  If the scale goes to the fatso side (the side I am most familiar with) then sorry, you forfeit.  If it stays on the skinny side, then get ready to wrestle.  

All the sudden the self-policing and wrestling at actual weight would become a lot more serious if not making weight EACH match was a concern.  If kids had to cut and keep it off all tournament long then they would either wrestle like crap or feel awful, both of which should be de-motivators.

But I know, I know..."THAT'S NOT HOW I DID IT!  I WORE A SUIT UNDER A TRASH BAG WITH MY MULLET TUCKED IN THE BACK IN THE 80S AND I WAS TOUGH BECAUSE OF IT!!"  I get it.  

Just seems like this scenario takes all gamesmanship out of it.  I also realize it will never be adopted ever.  Which has told me that any "guidelines" are moreso to satisfy lawyers than something most actual wrestling folks actually care about.

Edited by Kookie953

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13 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Back in summer of 1987 I was on my states (not Indiana) Jr National team and we were issued/or given some gear.   I remember one outfit we received for being on the team  was a plastic sweat suit with my state team logos.   We thought it was cool.    I remember we  used to take  a stationary bike to our showers.   We would  turn the showers ran for while on as hot as it would go.  And we would ride the bikes with our plastic sweat suit with a sweat shirt over it. Probably not healthy in hind sight, but we made weight.

 

In the 70's when I wrestled, almost all of our team wore these plastic suits everyday in practice with sweats on under and over them.  Didn't think much of it at the time and we all always made weight.  Looking back it wasn't too smart, but we didn't know any better. However, we do know better now!!!

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So my question is with all the comments regarding this..Is it possible the IHSAA at the last minute decide not only the wrestlers forfeit their wins, but they along with their coaches are officially not allowed to wrestle the state series?  Or is the decision to allow them to wrestle final?

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I hear what you're saying jasonbk2 but I don't think it's fair to punish the kids. I think the adults need to step up in this case.

If you're a kid in high school athletics, you do what your coach(s) tell you to do. You might have knowledge what you're being told isn't legal or fair, but you respect their authority and position, and your own position on the team, and do what you're told. It takes a unique kid to stand up to a coach, and ironically that might be what occurred here, although I suspect it was a parent. So I struggle with the life lesson that would be taught by not letting the kid wrestle when they were just following coaches orders, even if they knew it was wrong.

The better life lesson might be for the adults to stand up, accept responsibility and self punish themselves. Yes, forfeiting wins is a punishment for the kid, but c'mon man, that's nothing in the big picture. Teach the kid what it means to be an adult and admit mistakes were made, offer restitution of some sort be it voluntarily sitting out the state series, 6 month off season hiatus (yeah, I know most coaches would think this is a treat not punishment), whatever is deemed appropriate and necessary. That would be the proper life lesson to teach a kid in my opinion...that as an adult, you stand up and take responsibility for mistakes.

Tough deal, I know the Coach is held in high regard..but this is a pretty serious deal what with death occurring for this very thing decades ago. I would love to hear what @ClownBaby has to say about the issue. About time for him to come out and get the Audi washed for States anyway.

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http://www.ncaa.org/champion/wrestling-away-troubled-past

Heres an interesting article with some background on why NCAA banned Sauna suits.  3 wrestlers died in 1996 so they changed rules in 1997.  If NFHS hadn't changed yet prior to 1997, Im sure they would have immediately followed. 

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One of the strangest things I have found in differences between Indiana and Michigan is that Michigan weigh-ins are day before until the state series starts.  Coaches and ADs are supposed to verify the weights instead of the refs.  There is no doubt that promotes weight cutting because kids have 24 hours between weigh-in and competition.  There are definitely some teams who push the boundaries with what they do for the entire team for the practice before when they weigh-in with temperatures in their rooms and clothing.  Some are very good coaches but are stuck in the 80s with what they think weight management should be.  At least IN still has refs weigh the kids in the day of the competition.  Not sure how Michigan decided to go they way they did.

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I believe that all of this was known at the seeding meeting on Monday but the coaches did the right thing and seeded wrestlers as they should have been seeded. A big kudos to those coaches for the doing the right thing!

 

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First off I want to let everyone know I usually do not read threads on here and I just now signed up to be able to post because it sickens me to see these “likes” and comments! While I do not condone the issue of using plastics, I also do not  know the full story on what recently took place at Carmel High School, nor do any of you! It makes me sad that I see such negative comments towards my high school coach, knowing he has done SO much for many programs and for the state of Indiana. I am not going to sit here and tell you that I have agreed with everything Coach P has done, there have been times we haven’t seen things eye to eye.....But I am not going to forget everything else he stands for and the many improvements he has brought to the wrestling community in Indiana. Nobody is perfect! We all make mistakes, some more public than others. It saddens me to see so many people that have reaped the benefits of his presence in wrestling get on this thread and bash him and “like” derogatory comments about him. 

 

Coaching isn’t easy and dealing with most parents does NOT make it fun. One of the fundamental rules I live my life by is “never kick a man when he is down”. I will put aside my thoughts and opinions and I CHOOSE to reach out and anyone who is down I try to help them rise again and become better! One bad decision does not define you!!! It is when you are down you will find your true friends, I am here for P. Writing thoughtless posts on message boards while hiding behind a keyboard is also a great way to burn bridges ..... something else I try very hard never to do!

Leroy Vega 

 

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THE KIDS SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO WRESTLE END OF STORY. IF THIS WAS A SMALL SCHOOL BOB COX WOULD OF SAID YOU ARE DONE, HE HAS DONE THIS STUFF BEFORE HE LIKE TO PLEASE ALL THE BIG SCHOOL NO MATTER WHAT BECAUSE THEY BRING IN THE MONEY FOR THE IHSAA. THE 8 WRESTLERS AND THE HEAD COACH SHOULD HAVE TO SIT OUT THE TOURNAMENT. 

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13 minutes ago, UncleJimmy said:

 

Tough deal, I know the Coach is held in high regard..but this is a pretty serious deal what with death occurring for this very thing decades ago. I would love to hear what @ClownBaby has to say about the issue. About time for him to come out and get the Audi washed for States anyway.

 I was at one of those Carmel $20 cocktail bars this summer, and it had a few Audi's parked in front of it.  I could of sworn I saw @Clownbaby even though have I no idea what he looks like.

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1 hour ago, Kookie953 said:

I posted this on another thread on Facebook recently, but we are wrestling newbies as a family.  One thing I have never understood is the entire weigh-in process to begin with, moreso from an efficiency standpoint than any other reason...but if the sport was really serious about weight programs then this solution I thought about makes sense.

If I ruled the world then everyone would weigh in mat-side.  Have one of those old school scales set to the proper weight for that mat.  Have each wrestler step on the scale when they are on-deck.  If the scale goes to the fatso side (the side I am most familiar with) then sorry, you forfeit.  If it stays on the skinny side, then get ready to wrestle.  

All the sudden the self-policing and wrestling at actual weight would become a lot more serious if not making weight EACH match was a concern.  If kids had to cut and keep it off all tournament long then they would either wrestle like crap or feel awful, both of which should be de-motivators.

But I know, I know..."THAT'S NOT HOW I DID IT!  I WORE A SUIT UNDER A TRASH BAG WITH MY MULLET TUCKED IN THE BACK IN THE 80S AND I WAS TOUGH BECAUSE OF IT!!"  I get it.  

Just seems like this scenario takes all gamesmanship out of it.  I also realize it will never be adopted ever.  Which has told me that any "guidelines" are moreso to satisfy lawyers than something most actual wrestling folks actually care about.

I've been a proponent of mat-side weigh-ins for several years now. 

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If seeds stay as originally seeded, I'd imagine the argument would be using the seeding criteria that issued by IHSAA: "For seeding purposes, forfeits should not be included in a wrestler’s record." I think you can broadly interpret that and use the true outcomes of the individual's matches for head-to-head and record vs common opponents. 

I see it in a similar light of a flagrant misconduct penalty AFTER a match has been completed. The offending wrestler still gets credit for a head to head win against his opponent, but team points are deducted--effectively making it a loss for the team.

As mentioned previously in the thread, unseeding a talented Carmel wrestler could, in fact, put other wrestlers as a disadvantage for advancement. If you let them wrestle (which I think is permissible), I think it would be best you leave them where they are seeding-wise. It isn't ideal, but it is probably the most fair way in determining that the "best" wrestlers advance.

I'm not sure about the specifics of the incident(s), but I do know these kids wouldn't be the first and certainly wouldn't be the last to use sauna suits or a sauna/heat box to help make weight using dehydration techniques. That doesn't make it right, but I'm not ready to throw these kids to the wolves for things that have long been associated with the sport--especially if there was pressure from adults (not saying this is 100% the case, but it seems to be the rumor spreading).

This is a big story. Hopefully other coaches and wrestlers will see this and it will discourage this behavior going forward. In my experience, the coaching staff and administration at Carmel has always treated me with respect. I will reserve my judgement until more is known about what happened.

 

 

 

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Cutting weight is apart of the sport sounds like some whiny parents thats never wrestled got ahold of the MEDIA Ill stand behind coaches of carmel any day!!

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