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Sectional Seeding Criteria Question

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Trying to understand this and may be reading it wrong, if someone can explain:

Example:

A wrestler wrestles 160 all season. Come sectional he wrestles 145.  There are 3 wrestlers with much higher winning percentage and better records than him, however because he was the only one out of the 145's who made it to the Quarterfinal round of Semi-State he automatically gets #1 seed? Is that accurate? And if it is accurate, is that a broken system or criteria? Trying to understand it is all and decide in my head if that's shady or fair. Not that it would give him much advantage if the other 3 are truly better wrestlers, but trying to see that thought process through IHSAA rules, if it is indeed correct. 

 

Thanks guys.

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The head to head and common opponent criteria come first.  If neither of those criteria are met I believe the semi-state criteria would be next.  In this situation you would be giving a seed to a wrestler who has proved in the past that they are a quality wrestler.  If we went just by record you are not taking into account the strength of schedule of the wrestlers.  Wouldn't the system be just as broken if we rewarded teams for having easy schedules?

Edited by ENoblewrestling
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3 minutes ago, ENoblewrestling said:

The head to head and common opponent criteria come first.  If neither of those criteria are met I believe the semi-state criteria would be next.  In this situation you would be giving a seed to a wrestler who has proved in the past that they are a quality wrestler.  If we went just by record you are not taking into account the strength of schedule of the wrestlers.  Wouldn't the system be just as broken if we rewarded teams for having easy schedules?

That too makes sense, I wouldn't even have thought of it that way. Thank you. This is why I asked, to see if I was looking at it wrong. In our case, we know that the 3 wrestlers with better records have not had a "easy" schedule, but it does make sense to prevent that. 

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How on earth did he get enough qualifying weigh ins while dropping 15 lbs? We got hosed from kids trying to drop from 160 to 152. or 132-126 or even 113-106 (all moves made before the 1st.) Heck even the kid who went 138 all year is still having issues. IMO the new weight system is crap, just the IHSAA running the sport into the ground. 

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30 minutes ago, Bear62 said:

How on earth did he get enough qualifying weigh ins while dropping 15 lbs? We got hosed from kids trying to drop from 160 to 152. or 132-126 or even 113-106 (all moves made before the 1st.) Heck even the kid who went 138 all year is still having issues. IMO the new weight system is crap, just the IHSAA running the sport into the ground. 

He doesn't necessarily have to drop 15 pounds. He could have been weighing 145.3 before January, thus making him a 152, then bumping to wrestle 160. Even after January, weighing 147.1, he would only need about a week to make scratch legally.

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6 minutes ago, Galagore said:

He doesn't necessarily have to drop 15 pounds. He could have been weighing 145.3 before January, thus making him a 152, then bumping to wrestle 160. Even after January, weighing 147.1, he would only need about a week to make scratch legally.

Might explain the "much lower" winning percentage

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I questioned that weight loss too, but if that’s true, that he wrestled up, what’s the reason behind why someone would do that? Or why a coach would do that?  Is there a good strategy for that? 

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I don't know the situation at all, but maybe he couldn't be the varsity 152 and bumping to 160 was the only way to get into the lineup.  Maybe he knew he was going to drop down so he had to weigh close to 145 to do it legally.  Just one possibility.

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1 minute ago, SWSpectator said:

Maybe his weight loss plan didn't allow him to make scratch at 145 until this late in the season, and if he couldn't beat his teammate at 152, he would have to bump to 160 to make the lineup. Just a possibility.

Thanks. I’m a second year parent in high school wrestling and just trying to educate myself on the technical aspect of wrestling, seeding, brackets, and this whole weight rules and seeding criteria from IHSAA. Appreciate it! 

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But back to original question- does being a quarterfinalist in semi state in previous season automatically seed you higher than your winning percentage? The way I read seeding criteria in our trackwrestling information was 1. Does wrestler have 10 matches? 2. Was wrestler quarterfinalist? 3. Winning percentage record 4......so on and so forth. 

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Pairings and Seeding Procedures for those interested: 

A. Sectional pairings and seeding will be made at 7:00 p.m. on the Monday preceding the sectional tournament at the center school.

1. Each participating school in that sectional may have only 1 representative voting. Positions of contestants from schools not represented will be drawn by lot.

2. Six contestants shall be seeded in each weight class. Coaches are required to bring their official team scorebook and all of their Alpha Master Reports for each season contest date. A coaches’ failure to have his official team scorebook and his Alpha Master Reports shall result in his school’s entries being unseeded unless a majority of the other coaches present wish to seed the offending school’s wrestlers.

3. If a school does not have an entry in a weight class, then a forfeit shall be entered for that school in that weight class. EXCEPTION – When a school enters two (2) or less wrestlers in the IHSAA tournament series, the vacant weight classes created by this school’s entry into the tournament shall NOT cause a forfeit in the vacant weight classes.

4. A copy of the Official Entry List from each school shall be in the hands of the tourney director at the time of the seeding meeting.

5. Each coach shall specify to the Tourney Director his entrants for each weight class prior to the seeding meeting. If no representative is present at the seeding meeting, the first contestant listed on the official entry list who is eligible in a particular weight class will be entered in that weight class.

6. Pairings at this meeting shall be by lot after the seeding assignments are made. These pairings shall be final and will not be redrawn.

7. Only qualified alternate/s may be substituted after the seeding meeting. A qualified alternate is defined as any wrestler who meets the following criteria:

a. possesses six (6) qualified weigh‐ins throughout the regular season,

b. has not been seeded nor placed by draw at the IHSAA sectional seeding meeting,

c.   is legally entered in his weight class or the weight class immediately above his weight class and is then eligible in either weight class.

8. If it becomes necessary to replace a seeded wrestler after the conclusion of the seeding meeting, the following procedures shall be implemented:

a. all seeded wrestlers below the vacated spot shall move up one seeded position. The alternate shall be placed at the #6 seeded position.

b. if an alternate is not available to be placed at the 6th seeded position, the last unseeded wrestler drawn shall be placed in the 6th seeded position.

B. Mandatory Procedures to Follow at the Sectional Seeding Meeting

1. Equipment and Supplies: TrackWrestling software, Chalkboard/White Board, numbers and shaker bottle; sufficient chairs and tables; sufficient blank bracket sheets for each weight class and coach. Brackets will also be needed for classes in which all schools do not enter.

2. Have the head coach stand, introduce himself and his assistant and tell what school they represent.

3. Follow the conduct of tournament recommendations in the Official Wrestling Rules–Rule 10.

4. Each coach is to possess a complete individual record of his wrestlers to be seeded including opponents’ names, schools and match scores.

5. Coaches should strive to keep open minds when seeding assignments are being decided. The main objective of seeding is to have outstanding wrestlers separated in the brackets so that they will not meet each other until the finals. Seeding shall be based upon the wrestler's proven ability and not upon the desire for unwarranted advantage.  

6. Determination of seeded wrestlers is given in order of importance: Varsity contests are the only record submitted for seeding consideration.

a. Head to head competition current year; (The wrestler with the most head to head wins gets the seed. If they have beaten each other an equal number of times, then the winner of the last match gets the seed. Head to head is counted at any level of interscholastic competition.  Matches against teammates are not counted for seeding purposes.);

b. Record against common opponents;

c. Semi‐State quarterfinalist, or higher in previous year IHSAA Tournament Series;

d. Win percentage. A contestant with the best overall record (winning percentage) who has wrestled at least 10 matches; For seeding purposes, forfeits should not be included in a wrestler’s record.

e. Farthest advancement in previous year IHSAA State Tournament Series;

f. Draw by lot. Criteria is reset after determining each seed.

                                Criteria is reset after determining each seed

NOTE: A wrestler with less than ten matches may not be seeded ahead of a wrestler with at least ten matches and a winning record unless he/she meets criteria in a, b or c.  A wrestler with a losing record may not be seeded unless he/she meets criteria a, b or c unless there are less than six (6) wrestlers in the bracket.  

7. A seeded contestant shall have the same opportunity to draw for a bye as other contestants in his bracket.

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30 minutes ago, wrestleliferfan said:

But back to original question- does being a quarterfinalist in semi state in previous season automatically seed you higher than your winning percentage? The way I read seeding criteria in our trackwrestling information was 1. Does wrestler have 10 matches? 2. Was wrestler quarterfinalist? 3. Winning percentage record 4......so on and so forth. 

Per the rules "the main objective of seeding is to have outstanding wrestlers separated in the brackets so that they will not meet each other until the finals." I think that the rule writers assume that a wrestler who was on the cusp of making it to the state meet the previous year defines you as an outstanding wrestler.

10 matches qualifies you to be seeded, thus that is the 1st question. Next is head to head competition followed by common opponents. So if a returning semi-state quarterfinalist has lost to someone else in the sectional or has a worse record vs common opponents, he/she would NOT be seeded over his opponent he lost to or has had more common opponent success than--provided said wrestler meets the seeding criteria.   

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8 hours ago, wrestleliferfan said:

That too makes sense, I wouldn't even have thought of it that way. Thank you. This is why I asked, to see if I was looking at it wrong. In our case, we know that the 3 wrestlers with better records have not had a "easy" schedule, but it does make sense to prevent that. 

 Is strength of schedule a criteria used for seeding nowadays? I have been out of the coaching realm for a while 4 years to be exact. 

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Here is my take on the original question: 

The person in charge of the meeting should ask all the coaches if they believe the wrestler who has dropped weight and has no common opponents is clearly the best wrestler in the weight class.  If all coaches agree, then he is the number one seed.  If that is not the case, then you have to consider the records vs. everyone entered in that sectional.  Wrestler A is 8-0 vs sectional opponents, Wrestler B is 7-1 vs all sectional opponents and wrestler C is 0-0 vs sectional opponents.  Even if wrestler C is a semi-state quarter finalist, I believe he should be the #3 seed.  

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18 hours ago, runner-up said:

5. Coaches should strive to keep open minds when seeding assignments are being decided. The main objective of seeding is to have outstanding wrestlers separated in the brackets so that they will not meet each other until the finals. Seeding shall be based upon the wrestler's proven ability and not upon the desire for unwarranted advantage.  

 

I think this is also important. Coaches need to keep an open mind. Yes we all want our wrestlers to advance the furthest they possibly can, but we also need to be realistic. I think my point can be proven years ago when one of the Keiffer brothers and Brandon Wright were the #2 and #3 seeds because the #1 was the returning sectional champion in that weight class. I don't think you can argue strength of schedule because it is not the kids fault that they wrestle who they wrestle.I'm sure we all know of kids who come in with stellar records and higher seeds and then lose early in the tournament or do not advance. I think that goes back to the coaches keeping an open mind when seeding wrestlers. Also after a seed has been placed, the whole criteria for seeding starts over again.

Edited by LionsFan

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1 hour ago, Coach Mikesell said:

Here is my take on the original question: 

The person in charge of the meeting should ask all the coaches if they believe the wrestler who has dropped weight and has no common opponents is clearly the best wrestler in the weight class.  If all coaches agree, then he is the number one seed.  If that is not the case, then you have to consider the records vs. everyone entered in that sectional.  Wrestler A is 8-0 vs sectional opponents, Wrestler B is 7-1 vs all sectional opponents and wrestler C is 0-0 vs sectional opponents.  Even if wrestler C is a semi-state quarter finalist, I believe he should be the #3 seed.  

How does your belief change if said wrestler C is 5-3 or 6-2 two weights up and the losses were to quality wrestlers?  And what if that wrestler is say 4-1 or 4-2 against wrestlers in that same sectional at the higher weight?  Those two possibilities would have to factor in as well, no?  (note the records used for example are completely made up)

I think your point is valid in that there is no set answer in all circumstances.  

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would not change my thoughts even if he had a winning record at a different weight against kids from same schools in sectional.  If he is a stud and I think he should be the #1 I would say so, if I think he is moving down to have a better chance to advance and he is not the clear #1 then I think he should be seeded as such.  The wrestlers who have competed at that weight all season or the majority of the season should get the edge if they've beaten the majority of the wrestlers at that weight in that sectional.  If the wrestler who is moving down is really that good, seeding him third won't matter, he'll end up winning anyway.  But seeding him first and then he gets second not right to the wrestler who ends up third.  

maybe the IHSAA needs to look at a qualifying weigh ins and at least one scratch qualifying weigh in the wrestler has to compete at that weight class in order to be eligible for that weight at sectional.  Potentially a wrestler could wrestle at a weight and have never competed at that actual weight class.  They get two pounds starting in Jan.  So they find a JV meet to weigh in to make scratch in December, get the two pounds, have 5 other qualified weigh ins and never compete at that scratch weight.  Thus creating a debacle in the seed meeting.  

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14 hours ago, Coach Brown said:

 Is strength of schedule a criteria used for seeding nowadays? I have been out of the coaching realm for a while 4 years to be exact. 

I've seen it attempt to be used. But it isn't an actual criteria. That's where coaches keeping an open mind comes in.

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1 hour ago, Coach Mikesell said:

maybe the IHSAA needs to look at a qualifying weigh ins and at least one scratch qualifying weigh in the wrestler has to compete at that weight class in order to be eligible for that weight at sectional.  Potentially a wrestler could wrestle at a weight and have never competed at that actual weight class.  They get two pounds starting in Jan.  So they find a JV meet to weigh in to make scratch in December, get the two pounds, have 5 other qualified weigh ins and never compete at that scratch weight.  Thus creating a debacle in the seed meeting.  

Wrestlers do have to have a to make a scratch weight at the weight class they compete in for the sectional. They may not compete in that weight class on the day they make it, but that isn't the rule. Getting off topic just a bit, but the weight rule is something that needs to be looked at IMO. I have two thoughts. First, give the two pounds the first half of the season, and then remove it after Christmas. The IHSAA wants kids to be safe with their weight. This would allow wrestlers time to work down to their desired weight class and be safe while doing so. By Christmas time, wrestlers should have their weight management under control. My second thought is instead of saying a wrestler's minimum weight is 113, and if he weights 112.9 it doesn't count, just make it the wrestler has to make weight for the weight class. Then we don't run in to kids trying to drink water to add a few tenths right before weigh in to make sure they are at the correct tenth. Just a few thoughts.

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2 hours ago, LionsFan said:

First, give the two pounds the first half of the season, and then remove it after Christmas. The IHSAA wants kids to be safe with their weight. This would allow wrestlers time to work down to their desired weight class and be safe while doing so. By Christmas time, wrestlers should have their weight management under control.

It is a 2 pound "growth allowance" intended to accommodate the natural growth of adolescents. The idea is to make sure kids going through puberty aren't killing themselves to say at the same weight all year as their body changes.

How often does a situation like a guy dropping 2 weight classes, having no common opponents and also have a great record at the higher weight classes, cause issues at a seeding meeting? Probably not that often. Lets not rewrite the rules for outlier cases.

The idea is to get the best kids away from each other earlier and let the kids determine who moves on. Coaches should understand this and try to help this happen for the best interest of all participants.

 

 

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On 1/18/2019 at 3:34 PM, runner-up said:

Coaches should understand this and try to help this happen for the best interest of all participants.

 

 

Keyword:  Should.

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