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doublelegkilla

Chad Red

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If you have been paying attention to him in his college career, I feel like there is a decline in his wrestling this season, maybe there is something going on that I don't know about, but he doesn't seem to be himself out there. His red-shirt freshman season he was wrestling phenomenally, and last year he really put on a show at the NCAA championships taking out the two-time reigning champ Dean Heil, and don't get me wrong CJ is a wonderful wrestler and I don't mean to disrespect him or his skills in any way. But, it makes me wonder is there something wrong with Nebraska wrestling and are they not developing their wrestlers. Beau Breske is a recruit that came in with CJ also, and he seemed to have the same problem. Because, I feel like a lot of wrestlers go to college and their coaches seem to develop them, Penn State is a great example. Just a thought, but I wanted to hear the rest of your opinions on it.

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I’ve wondered the same. But it is also common for wrestlers to peak early and not perform as great as they get older. Look at Angel, Matt Coughlin, both T-shirt’s.. although Jason had a different reason for the decline. 

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2 hours ago, doublelegkilla said:

If you have been paying attention to him in his college career, I feel like there is a decline in his wrestling this season, maybe there is something going on that I don't know about, but he doesn't seem to be himself out there. His red-shirt freshman season he was wrestling phenomenally, and last year he really put on a show at the NCAA championships taking out the two-time reigning champ Dean Heil, and don't get me wrong CJ is a wonderful wrestler and I don't mean to disrespect him or his skills in any way. But, it makes me wonder is there something wrong with Nebraska wrestling and are they not developing their wrestlers. Beau Breske is a recruit that came in with CJ also, and he seemed to have the same problem. Because, I feel like a lot of wrestlers go to college and their coaches seem to develop them, Penn State is a great example. Just a thought, but I wanted to hear the rest of your opinions on it.

Coach Manning sure seemed to develop "Jordan Burroughs".    As a coach, has been in the top 10 in NCAAs 9 times out 18 years including the last 4 and should be this  year.  I think college programs in Indiana would take his success rate at developing all-Americans.

Wrestling in college is tough and a lot of reasons why kids don't get to the AA status.   Its a mental marathon, kids are used to being the Alpha wrestler and  get to college and you're just  one of the guys.  Finding your way to motivate yourself can be extremely difficult.  Some kids peak earlier and some get girlfriends and see other distractions.   Lot of cool stuff going on at colleges also like learning, maybe some kids just don't dedicate  their whole life to it.  Chad Red Jr is  still top 20 so still doing pretty good.  Look at the ranks of Mannings upper classman.   Maybe Chad Red is still going through his system to get him there. 

 

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Pretty sure he all Americaned and pinned a two time ncaa champ last year at the ncaas (as a rs freshman). I talked to Dean Heil personally about Red this year. We both agreed that he is the real deal. He also just majored a ranked kid that took 3rd at the midlands last week. Say what you want, I would take that all day long. 

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26 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

Pretty sure he all Americaned and pinned a two time ncaa champ last year at the ncaas (as a rs freshman). I talked to Dean Heil personally about Red this year. We both agreed that he is the real deal. He also just majored a ranked kid that took 3rd at the midlands last week. Say what you want, I would take that all day long. 

This has been discussed some on the college board, both in its own thread and within the Hoosiers in College Results threads.  To keep up on many former Indiana kids and how they are doing in college, check it out.  That said....

I think the point is there has been good and bad with Chad.  He certainly beat Heil but he has lost to unranked wrestlers and losses have mounted.  Chad Red being ranked just on the cusp of the Top 20 (he lost this weekend to Josh Alber again, so he may not be ranked this week) is not the Chad Red most fans expected.  I believe it is a question rather than a judgement.  As Wrestling Scholar alluded to, there is, s, and some because of physical limitations, health and weight management.

I don't pretend to know about Chad, his work ethic, behaviors, coaching or anything. So asking questions is definitely different than making accusations or judgments.  The question I ask, is 141 the right weight for him?  Is he having to cut hard? Would he be better served at 149?

Chad still has plenty of time to make his mark.  He'll have an excellent opportunity to make some noise this coming Sunday when he should face Nick Lee at Penn St.  Last year's All-American finish was a good start.  Maybe people should pump the brakes on the expectations.  Winning championships ain't easy.

 

Edited by SWINfan

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He peaked at NCAAs last year, and I wouldn't be shocked if he does it again this year. Red has lost competitive matches to solid wrestlers.  Nick Lee just lost to Tristan Moran in an upset...it happens. Historically, there have been very few NCAA D1 4 time AAs from Indiana, and yet Lee and Red are still alive to accomplish that.

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10 hours ago, navy80 said:

I’ve wondered the same. But it is also common for wrestlers to peak early and not perform as great as they get older. Look at Angel, Matt Coughlin, both T-shirt’s.. although Jason had a different reason for the decline. 

Hard to put Angel in that group. In folkstyle, he had his '08 NCAA championship run in a year where his weight was wide open. In my opinion he never really fell off after that, but his weight was more difficult in '09 and '10 and he wasn't necessarily a typical "dominant" champ in '08. Five years later in 2013, he lost by one point in the WORLD bronze medal match while wrestling at a very, very high level.

With a guy like Dean Heil last year who started racking up some losses, it just feels bizarre because it's clear when you watch him that '17  Champ Heil, who had an air of invincibility, would have smashed '18 All-American Heil. Those are the head scratchers.

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Nebraska is a great school but may not be the right school for CJ. Look at Desantos, Drexel was not the right school for him. Desantos needed to be with crazy nut jobs and Iowa and the Brands Brothers was the perfect place for him! Also have to look at what role CJ's dad played in his success in high school. CJ may need some one who is watching him and pushing him everyday at college like he had back home. CJ is the real deal, he just needs to find someone who can bring that out of him every match! 

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8 hours ago, maligned said:

Hard to put Angel in that group. In folkstyle, he had his '08 NCAA championship run in a year where his weight was wide open. In my opinion he never really fell off after that, but his weight was more difficult in '09 and '10 and he wasn't necessarily a typical "dominant" champ in '08. Five years later in 2013, he lost by one point in the WORLD bronze medal match while wrestling at a very, very high level.

With a guy like Dean Heil last year who started racking up some losses, it just feels bizarre because it's clear when you watch him that '17  Champ Heil, who had an air of invincibility, would have smashed '18 All-American Heil. Those are the head scratchers.

The prevailing opinion on Heil is he had to change styles due to the Danger rule.  Heil always seemed to wrestle close matches and lived in scramble mode, often where his back was exposed, but without control by the other wrestler he was safe.  Once the Danger rule was put in place, he couldn't live in those scramble positions any longer and his results suffered from the forced change in style.  

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1 hour ago, SWINfan said:

The prevailing opinion on Heil is he had to change styles due to the Danger rule.  Heil always seemed to wrestle close matches and lived in scramble mode, often where his back was exposed, but without control by the other wrestler he was safe.  Once the Danger rule was put in place, he couldn't live in those scramble positions any longer and his results suffered from the forced change in style.  

I think that may be part of what Red’s challenge has been as well. He has not been near as good a scrambler in college as he was in high school, which was his big thing. I watched his matches with Nate Limmex of Purdue, and Red conceding some fairly easy takedowns off of scrambling situations that I didn’t see coming. 

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I know this will be unpopular, but from afar after watching the Nick Lee vs Chad Red finals match and then hearing things about missing weight for the Flow event, I thought he would likely have problems in college.  I hoped I was wrong after he AA'd last year but I am not shocked at how this season is going.  Maybe sometimes four time state champs would be better off not being four time state champs.  In comparison ( and how can you not), Nick Lee seems to be making big gains right now.  Obviously being at Penn State can't hurt, but he looked like and appeared to act like a driven kid coming out of high school with a goal to win NCAA championships.  Just saying, neither's path is surprising me.  I don't know either kid personally or pretend to think I was 100% sure this was how it would go.  Just seemed to be some things that alluded to the current trajectories.  Still hoping Mr Red can turn it around this season and gets back on the stand in March.

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Unfortunately there will always be comparisons to Red and Lee going on. In all honesty it is not fair to either kid as both are phenomenal and have accomplished a great deal before they have turned the ripe old age of 21 yet. They both will continue to have a lot of success at the NCAA level and hopefully the World level.

I would love to them to never have to wrestle again and one go up to 149 so Indiana can have national champs at 133, 141, and 149...then throw in Brayton, a couple Davisons, and Parris to add more!
 

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D1 College wrestling is tough. Big 10 wrestling is a grind. CJ has had some good matches where things went his way and some matches where they didn't. He isn't as dominate as we saw him here in Indiana, but the competition is tougher so that is understandable.

As mentioned before, the danger rule might have caused him to have to switch up his style a bit which might explain the takedown defense.

This year hasn't been quite as good as last year up to this point, but I am not throwing in the towel to say he is done yet. I think we have yet to CJ hit his ceiling. He has always been a gamer and I am looking forward to watching him compete at Big 10s and the NCAA Championships in the next few months.

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If he finds a way to place high at Big 10’s and peaks by NCAAs to AA then these in season mixed results are mostly forgotten.  There are past guys who have had a few head scratcher results during the grind of the regular season, only to turn it on in those spotlight event like NCAA’s.  We all know Red is a “gamer” who likes to prove something to the crowd in big events so hopefully we can see him rise to the occasion by the post season.    College as experienced as Mark Manning & Co. have plenty of experience trying to can the code to whatever is hinder college wrestlers, we will have to wait and see if they can find the right approach to getting CJ into his top form by March.   

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I look at the Top 20 rankings for 141 and see no reason why Chad couldn't be an All-American this year.  I see a lot of guys he could lose to, but only a few I don't see him potentially beating.  The seeding/draw could be big for him, which the rest of the year will determine.

As far as being a "gamer", his next chance to prove that still fits is Sunday against Penn St.  It will be a charged up, sold out atmosphere, of which 99% will be against him.  To me that is the kind of crowd that would spark a fire in him.  

Lots of questions have been raised about why he hasn't been as dominant and no one on here (at least no one posting) know for sure.  But my question is, does Chad still LOVE wrestling and still have the level of DESIRE he once had?  The college atmosphere can divide one's attention and it can be easy for people's focus to change, even if just slightly.  If the answer is yes, I expect him to show up Sunday and make a run at AA status once again.

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As a former college athlete, I can attest from experience (and not exactly a stellar one if you know what I mean) that adding a sport to an already tough college academic load is like having a 20-30 hr/week job in addition to 12-15 hrs of class and what should be at least 24-30 hours of studying.  That's 8-10 hours a day seven days a week.  It is a grind.  Toss in weight management issues and you're talking a monumental task to complete during the season.  My hat is off to all college wrestlers in all divisions.  By my heart goes out to those from our great state.

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13 minutes ago, backtothemat said:

As a former college athlete, I can attest from experience (and not exactly a stellar one if you know what I mean) that adding a sport to an already tough college academic load is like having a 20-30 hr/week job in addition to 12-15 hrs of class and what should be at least 24-30 hours of studying.  That's 8-10 hours a day seven days a week.  It is a grind.  Toss in weight management issues and you're talking a monumental task to complete during the season.  My hat is off to all college wrestlers in all divisions.  By my heart goes out to those from our great state.

I agree.  I played DI baseball and while they are different sports, I can't imagine the level of commitment required to be a national caliber athlete under such a microscope.  In college we drank and partied, played games hung over, chased women, stayed out all night sometimes.  We were still good enough to make the NCAA Tournament one year and a solid program the others as well as having a couple of guys good enough to make the Majors.

I never wrestled at a high level, but I am pretty confident there aren't a ton of guys standing on the podium at the end of the year doing all of that.  There are times I wish I was more dedicated and would have liked to see how good I could have been, but I am also smart enough to know I had physical limitations that would keep me from getting drafted (too short, didn't throw hard enough).  

Nonetheless, I have nothing but admiration about the commitment these guys make to be the top at the college or high school level.

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