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tnkpatton

Another Jerry McGuire Moment

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OK, I am going to post this knowing there will be quite a few who disagree, but just getting tired of a few things:

I have been around this sport for the last 46 years of my 50 years and wrestling is missing the boat for 90% of the wrestlers.  I read all the posts here and people talking about why numbers are down.  Here is my assessment.

The top 2-3% of wrestlers in Indiana are better than they were when I was in high school.  I officiated this weekend and have watched my son wrestle this year.  There is plenty of blame to go around.  This weekend as well as almost every other weekend, I have seen more kids raking kids faces, punching kids in the face, ribs, and pushing them after they go out of bounds, and trying to torque a knee after the whistle blows amongst other things.  I am not soft, but I am quite sure a good hard cross face is ok when trying to pick up the far arm or fight off a shot, but the re-rake and subsequent rake is ludicrous.  The coaches say he is just being physical.  Totally crap, it is not a move and you are not working anything but trying to intimidate the other opponent or injure your opponent with brutality.

If you watch the best kids in the state, I rarely see this happen.  It is with the second tier kids and/or programs.  Teach your kids how to wrestle, the above is not wrestling.  This is not college, this is high school where 90% of the kids may not even wrestle in college.  They are out because their parents told them to get involved and be a part of something, or were talked into it by a teacher or another coach.  Why would these fringe kids (70%) even want to be a part of a sport where some "heavy hands" have been equated to punching, raked faces lead to bloody noses and lips, and the extra pull on the knee or shoulder equates to stretched ligaments or eventually worse.  When the whistle blows, stop wrestling the best you can, coaches lead by example and let the kids know they did something wrong instead of arguing he is a good kid and would never do this.

These fringe kids will either quit during the season or worse yet, never come out the following year.  No fight shorts or uniforms will change that.  So by all accounts wrestling is a great sport and can hep teach kids a lot about life and to be great workers and citizens of this country.  As I always was told, "I will never miss an opportunity to teach or guide you whether you like what I say or not and you may not always come out on top, but life is not about short cuts, but about what kind of person you are in the long-run."

With this being said, I love wrestling and what it has done for me in my life and hope that others will enjoy it also.  The more who experience what wrestling is really about and the hard work, it will pay dividends for life.  Those who don't understand will still be making excuses for their kids and rationalizing where we are going.  

I would challenge the wrestling community which includes the coaches, parents and officials to make the right calls and do the right thing.  Maybe it will bring in more kids to the sport and maybe it won't.  One way, I am pretty sure we will head down the same road, the other, it will not get worse, but maybe a chance for more to experience this great sport.

TP

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1 hour ago, tnkpatton said:

OK, I am going to post this knowing there will be quite a few who disagree, but just getting tired of a few things:

I have been around this sport for the last 46 years of my 50 years and wrestling is missing the boat for 90% of the wrestlers.  I read all the posts here and people talking about why numbers are down.  Here is my assessment.

The top 2-3% of wrestlers in Indiana are better than they were when I was in high school.  I officiated this weekend and have watched my son wrestle this year.  There is plenty of blame to go around.  This weekend as well as almost every other weekend, I have seen more kids raking kids faces, punching kids in the face, ribs, and pushing them after they go out of bounds, and trying to torque a knee after the whistle blows amongst other things.  I am not soft, but I am quite sure a good hard cross face is ok when trying to pick up the far arm or fight off a shot, but the re-rake and subsequent rake is ludicrous.  The coaches say he is just being physical.  Totally crap, it is not a move and you are not working anything but trying to intimidate the other opponent or injure your opponent with brutality.

If you watch the best kids in the state, I rarely see this happen.  It is with the second tier kids and/or programs.  Teach your kids how to wrestle, the above is not wrestling.  This is not college, this is high school where 90% of the kids may not even wrestle in college.  They are out because their parents told them to get involved and be a part of something, or were talked into it by a teacher or another coach.  Why would these fringe kids (70%) even want to be a part of a sport where some "heavy hands" have been equated to punching, raked faces lead to bloody noses and lips, and the extra pull on the knee or shoulder equates to stretched ligaments or eventually worse.  When the whistle blows, stop wrestling the best you can, coaches lead by example and let the kids know they did something wrong instead of arguing he is a good kid and would never do this.

These fringe kids will either quit during the season or worse yet, never come out the following year.  No fight shorts or uniforms will change that.  So by all accounts wrestling is a great sport and can hep teach kids a lot about life and to be great workers and citizens of this country.  As I always was told, "I will never miss an opportunity to teach or guide you whether you like what I say or not and you may not always come out on top, but life is not about short cuts, but about what kind of person you are in the long-run."

With this being said, I love wrestling and what it has done for me in my life and hope that others will enjoy it also.  The more who experience what wrestling is really about and the hard work, it will pay dividends for life.  Those who don't understand will still be making excuses for their kids and rationalizing where we are going.  

I would challenge the wrestling community which includes the coaches, parents and officials to make the right calls and do the right thing.  Maybe it will bring in more kids to the sport and maybe it won't.  One way, I am pretty sure we will head down the same road, the other, it will not get worse, but maybe a chance for more to experience this great sport.

TP

I agree with a lot of this but I see a lot of the "fringe" kids I see out of frustration of being dominated gouging eyes, punching and kicking ppl in the face as well...I also see so many bad habits like kids going for "jiu jitsu " esque holds such as guillotine chokes instead of cross facing and that's coming down to kids not drilling properly or being educated enough... there is a lot of bad showmanship in all sports it seems as a whole these days and we as a society gotta hold these athletes accountable and lead by good example.

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It is not as many of the fringe kids doing it.  They are trying to wrestle as they have been taught.  Some of the kids doing it are what I would consider the second tier kids because they are frustrated they are not pinning or beating someone as much as they think.  I had someone yell back this weekend, well the kid is not opening up.  Too bad, the official's job is to call this, not the wrestler to rake his face back and forth until he opens up.  We have gotten to this point, because it is not called enough.

If those kids are doing they should be called and their coach should call them out and teach them.  Win or Lose, do it respectfully.  I would agree, we continue to emulate what we see on tv and what is taught.

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I can’t stand the hard push after they are out of bounds. I really really hate the face raking. Makes me immediately dislike the wrestler. It is just dirty. If a coach coaches that they should quit.

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Wrestling is a legalized street fight and you need to be ready to scrap when you step on the mat. It is a physical sport that boys need to expend their energy and use their aggressiveness in a positive manner.

With that said there are times when there are dirty moves or extra-circulars that are not needed. The referees and coaches need to step in and emphasize to these kids that this is not warranted.

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Where's the Jerry McGuire reference come in?awhile since I've watched it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Been 

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This happened at the ECIC #145 weight class with my son. He was wrestling a ranked kid. The kid was getting really mad because he couldn’t pin my son. He choked him out and with a closed fist punched my son right in the eye. Ref didn’t do anything and when our coach told the ref he just punched him he got threatened to be kicked out. My son was blacked out at the time and didn’t even know it happened. That kid did win 10-3 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, ChrisMC said:

This happened at the ECIC #145 weight class with my son. He was wrestling a ranked kid. The kid was getting really mad because he couldn’t pin my son. He choked him out and with a closed fist punched my son right in the eye. Ref didn’t do anything and when our coach told the ref he just punched him he got threatened to be kicked out. My son was blacked out at the time and didn’t even know it happened. That kid did win 10-3 

That almost sounds too amazing to true.    So a kid choked your kid which is illegal, and ref didn't see it.  Ok, possible.   Then more obviously, ref doesn't see a fist punch to the eye, which is flagrant misconduct. How did the ref miss that?   Then you're kid blacks out and ref doesn't stop it (which he should of)  and you're kid doesn't get pinned while being blacked out?   How does that work?  Just curious,  did you let your kid wrestle any more matches after that match?

I'm going contrarian to this post.   I think compared to when I wrestled 30 years ago,  there's a lot less dirty/shady unsportmanslike crap going on now as compared to then..  I remember guys used to do nasty stuff back in the day.  I wrestled in a different state,  and  maybe my perception is off, but there was some physical crap going on back then.    I think referees do a great job of cleaning up the  dirty stuff most of the time now and step in when it gets chippy, and there are a lot  more moves that are illegal now that used not to be.   I know the top wresters are physical (not dirty), and that can be tough. 

The real reason wrestling participation is lower is due to sports specialization.    Most kids only play one sport and they participate in the off season in that sport.  Everybody played multiple sports back in the  day and didn't have the pressure to participate year round.  And we were better off  for it.     The top kids wrestle year round,  don't play football, track or cross country anymore.    So the problem is that the top kids are so far ahead of the multi-sport athletes, it discourages the multi sport athlete as there chanced of success is lower.  Also,  the other sports are going year round, and are pressuring kids to not wrestle in the winter and play the sport year round.  Its a cannabilizing cycle.  Wrestling is not the only sport with lower participation problems.  

 

 

  

 

Edited by Wrestling Scholar

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51 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

That almost sounds too amazing to true.    So a kid choked your kid which is illegal, and ref didn't see it.  Ok, possible.   Then more obviously, ref doesn't see a fist punch to the eye, which is flagrant misconduct. How did the ref miss that?   Then you're kid blacks out and ref doesn't stop it (which he should of)  and you're kid doesn't get pinned while being blacked out?   How does that work?  Just curious,  did you let your kid wrestle any more matches after that match?

I'm going contrarian to this post.   I think compared to when I wrestled 30 years ago,  there's a lot less dirty/shady unsportmanslike crap going on now as compared to then..  I remember guys used to do nasty stuff back in the day.  I wrestled in a different state,  and  maybe my perception is off, but there was some physical crap going on back then.    I think referees do a great job of cleaning up the  dirty stuff most of the time now and step in when it gets chippy, and there are a lot  more moves that are illegal now that used not to be.   I know the top wresters are physical (not dirty), and that can be tough. 

The real reason wrestling participation is lower is due to sports specialization.    Most kids only play one sport and they participate in the off season in that sport.  Everybody played multiple sports back in the  day and didn't have the pressure to participate year round.  And we were better off  for it.     The top kids wrestle year round,  don't play football, track or cross country anymore.    So the problem is that the top kids are so far ahead of the multi-sport athletes, it discourages the multi sport athlete as there chanced of success is lower.  Also,  the other sports are going year round, and are pressuring kids to not wrestle in the winter and play the sport year round.  Its a cannabilizing cycle.  Wrestling is not the only sport with lower participation problems.  

 

 

  

 

Yeah it was a mess.  The kid actually tried choking him 5 times. At that particular time my son said he blacked out for a second he don’t remember any of that. It was pretty sad that parents from other schools was yelling at the ref and that kid. When we was in the bleachers and can see his face changing colors but the ref doesn’t notice it is a big problem not to mention everyone in that area was yelling at him trying to get his attention. Then he punched him. Some guy that we don’t even know said he would’ve crossed faced that kids nose off if it was him.  

Yes he wrestled his next match it was his last match of the day. He said he felt fine just had a headache and a black eye. 

My son does wrestle year round and plays football. 

Yes i agree most refs do a really good job. I’m not sure what was going on with this ref we’ve had him many of times and never had any issues that I can recall.

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On 1/7/2019 at 6:02 PM, ChrisMC said:

Yeah it was a mess.  The kid actually tried choking him 5 times. At that particular time my son said he blacked out for a second he don’t remember any of that. It was pretty sad that parents from other schools was yelling at the ref and that kid. When we was in the bleachers and can see his face changing colors but the ref doesn’t notice it is a big problem not to mention everyone in that area was yelling at him trying to get his attention. Then he punched him. Some guy that we don’t even know said he would’ve crossed faced that kids nose off if it was him.  

Yes he wrestled his next match it was his last match of the day. He said he felt fine just had a headache and a black eye. 

My son does wrestle year round and plays football. 

Yes i agree most refs do a really good job. I’m not sure what was going on with this ref we’ve had him many of times and never had any issues that I can recall.

Pretty sure you are talking about our wrestler and no he isn’t ranked. Probably should be though. We don’t coach dirt. We coach intensity. Sorry your son was undefeated until he wrestled our kid but I saw absolutely nothing illegal. I never saw a choke. Now the punch your coach complained about was a cross face that didn’t work because your sons face was planted too hard on the mat. I can understand the complaint from your coach but he verbally berated the ref. You don’t get anywhere doing that. That was normal wrestling at that level. 

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13 hours ago, aoberlin said:

Pretty sure you are taking about our wrestler and no he isn’t ranked. Probably should be though. We don’t coach dirt. We coach intensity. Sorry your son was undefeated until he wrestled our kid but I saw absolutely nothing illegal. I never saw a choke. Now the punch your coach complained about was a cross face that didn’t work because your sons face was planted too hard on the mat. I can understand the complaint from your coach but he verbally berated the ref. You don’t get anywhere doing that. That was normal wrestling at that level. 

I will agree to disagree. The video don’t lie. Him being undefeated going into that match doesn’t matter. And this kid is ranked for Fort Wayne semi state. I think he’s #1 now was #3,  Really that doesn’t matter either.  He choked my son and punched him. You can call it a cross face if you want but that is not what it looked like.

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3 hours ago, ChrisMC said:

I will agree to disagree. The video don’t lie. Him being undefeated going into that match doesn’t matter. And this kid is ranked for Fort Wayne semi state. I think he’s #1 now was #3,  Really that doesn’t matter either.  He choked my son and punched him. You can call it a cross face if you want but that is not what it looked like.

I don't really remember the match. If you have video, I would be happy to take a look and use it as a teaching moment if what you say is true. I don't think we have film on the match but you could post it as a private video on YouTube and share the link with me via message. Our wrestler isn't dirty and it hasn't been an issue in the four years that he has wrestled for our program. If it happened, I don't think he meant to cause any harm but I'm sorry that your kid was hurt in the process. 

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12 minutes ago, HomesteadWrestling said:

I don't really remember the match. If you have video, I would be happy to take a look and use it as a teaching moment if what you say is true. I don't think we have film on the match but you could post it as a private video on YouTube and share the link with me via message. Our wrestler isn't dirty and it hasn't been an issue in the four years that he has wrestled for our program. If it happened, I don't think he meant to cause any harm but I'm sorry that your kid was hurt in the process. 

I will work on that tomorrow we have a meet tonight. My son chalked it off no hard feelings.  It wasn’t ever really about your wrestler it was more about the ref not doing anything. I get accidents happen. I’ve seen it other times with different wrestlers and refs but that was the most recent one that I could pin point out. 

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, ChrisMC said:

I will work on that tomorrow we have a meet tonight. My son chalked it off no hard feelings.  It wasn’t ever really about your wrestler it was more about the ref not doing anything. I get accidents happen. I’ve seen it other times with different wrestlers and refs but that was the most recent one that I could pin point out. 

Just curious,  did your kid go through concussion protocol?  You mentioned he passed out and had a headache after the match, but wrestled again.  Both of those are concussion symptoms.  I  hope somebody at least checked him out.   Maybe another learning moment here.

Edited by Wrestling Scholar

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First of all you were not sitting in the bleachers, you were standing at the railing overlooking the Mat. Second it is convenient that you fail to mention your comment to your son after the perceived incident. Your instructions between the 2nd and 3rd period were and I quote "Go punch him in the face". Meaning to go and punch his opponent in the face. I believe this exactly the kind of negative input and instruction the the post was intended to stop.

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31 minutes ago, Fwfd535 said:

First of all you were not sitting in the bleachers, you were standing at the railing overlooking the Mat. Second it is convenient that you fail to mention your comment to your son after the perceived incident. Your instructions between the 2nd and 3rd period were and I quote "Go punch him in the face". Meaning to go and punch his opponent in the face. I believe this exactly the kind of negative input and instruction the the post was intended to stop.

Wow really yes I was sitting in the bleachers. I was actually sitting right in front of that mat, on the ground bleachers 5 rows up. I don’t know who your referring to but it was not me.  I would never tell my son to punch someone. I wasn’t up in the balcony the whole day so you have mixed up with someone else. 

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3 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Just curious,  did your kid go through concussion protocol?  You mentioned he passed out and had a headache after the match, but wrestled again.  Both of those are concussion symptoms.  I  hope somebody at least checked him out.   Maybe another learning moment here.

Yes he was checked out.  He was ok to wrestle. His only side effect was a headache 

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I would send him the video, there are times when coaches do not see things.  My point is when they do see them and do nothing.  For instance if your kid throws a headlock without an arm and has it for 30 seconds, is it ok to sit there and do nothing because your kid may get the win?  Or is it your job to protect those wrestlers.  I know, sounds soft, right?

The NFHS says high school participation in sports overall is increasing according to the 2017 study, but wrestling is dropping.  Football is as well and maybe it is just because they are "gladiator" sports.  

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One more point on this.  If you have a young official who by all accounts does a good job, but he misses the fact an illegal headlock has been thrown and held, at least make an effort to let him know what was done incorrectly, send him the film.  It should not matter whether your kid won or not.  We all want good officials, but I can assure you at some point if he misses this, he will be completely chewed up and spit out and then never officiate again.  Never miss an opportunity to teach.

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