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awood2

College Wrestling On HS Mats

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I know the IHSAA is short on officials, but this holiday I saw NCAA officials on high school mats creating quite a stir (bluntly, a black-eye on our sport).  I'm gonna state the obvious - there is a difference in college & high school rules.  The NCAA officials taking high school matches need to understand the differences, why there is a difference, and they should agree to call the high school rules when on a high school mat!  The number of coaches with misconduct warning, team points taken, athletes losing their minds in the bleachers b/c they are shocked in the difference between calls per match at the same tourney, and even parents being removed b/c they were so upset after a finals match that was called by a NCAA ref...

  1. not calling stalling on the top man (stalemate instead)
  2. out-of-bounds
  3. reaction time (the need for it)
  4. potentially dangerous holds
  5. in high school we want coaches to approach us when they don't understand so they can be a better coach for this athletes in all situations

Finally, the NCAA officials I watched do not apply for the IHSAA tournament series.  Therefore, the coaches involved have no recourse, or voting power to rank these officials.  We are putting our best wrestlers on the biggest stages over the holidays and our officials shouldn't try to upstage the athletes.

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I would say I agree with some of this post and disagree with a lot. I am confused why we wouldn’t want better officiating. 

I was at the biggest holiday tournament and had probably the best seat in the house. While I don’t agree with all calls, to try to single out a couple officials because they you do not agree or want it the old way is plain dumb. 

There are a lot of officials that have a certain way they call matches not just “NCAA” officials. I would suggest that the officials in question are some of the best in the state. 

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I was at the same tournament and I've got to agree with ontherise on this topic.  We all have different opinions on certain calls, but from what I saw the officiating was pretty darn good. 

We always are in need of more qualified officials so if you know someone that wants to be involved follow this:

In order to become a licensed IHSAA wrestling official you can follow this link for details on the process.http://www.ihsaa.org...72/Default.aspx

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I understand what awood2 is saying. I sat with a Big Ten official at a high school tournament 2 years ago and he told me "you could not pay him enough to officiate a high school match". He said the rules differ so much, more than most people realize. This official is one of the better Big Ten officials and he admitted he would screw up a high school match. But then again he is not licensed to officiate high school matches.

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Ontherise219 - just because you have an NCAA credential doesn't mean you are a good and/or better official.  I want to apologize to any high school officials that may have read that.  Meanwhile, if you are an official as a general rule I would caution you to stay off the discussion board too. 

"There are a lot of officials that have a certain way they call matches not just “NCAA” officials. I would suggest that the officials in question are some of the best in the state." -this statement sums up my whole complaint.  If you think that sending an 'NCAA' official to the tournament means he is the better than the other officials you have completely made my point.

 

WOC - We agree on one thing... overall the officiating, and tournament, was outstanding.  My comments are based solely on my personal observations.  I am aware that I am not the first person to raise these issues (it's been discussed with them personally).  I am the first to mention it on this forum.  In response to your link, you obviously are not familiar.  Involvement in wrestling directly spanned 20+ years: athlete (high school & college), mat official, board member for local and state associations, state representative nationally (my favorite was the OTC for meetings and refereed Junior World Team Trials) and on a exchange trip to Japan.  Some people have even accused me of being a very good official for some small period of my life.  Imagine that. 

Question: What are your criteria for 'best officials' in the state?

The IHSAA has several criteria for ranking officials: coaches votes (1-5), attendance at local association rules meetings, years experience, rules test part 2, years tournament experience. 

 

Besides being friends & family - how would you rank all the NCAA officials you know based on those criteria?  The other officials at the tournament I was at satisfy strive to meet those criteria year-in and year-out.  That may have something to do with the calm, predictability that they bring to a high school match.  If you think that passing the rules test part 1 and agreeing to show up makes you a great official you are spitting in the eye of all the high school officials who are dedicated to the hours of training together to provide a decent, predictable scoring process to the wrestling.  

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“NCAA” official is your name for these officials not mine. I was only aware of one “NCAA” official working the Al Smith you were obviously in attendance. Did you voice your opinion to these young officials? 

You give a laundry list of accomplishments of what you have done, you must have more knowledge of the sport then the officials in question. They could benefit from your 20 years of experience.

 

My opinion. Is just that my opinion I do believe these are two of the stronger officials in the state. I would assume that is why they are being requested for the bigger tournaments and duals, By the coaches. Again my opinion,there are a lot of really great officials. If you want me to rank them In order I can do that also. Starting with Jim Russell at the top who was criticized on national forums after the dream team classic for his use of stalling. 

I wouldn’t expect you to view it from my point of view, because I could never view it from yours. My point is from an unbiased observer who wants the best officials in the best matches.

Since you are so versed in the rules how are the top officials selected for the NCAAs and olympics. What is the rating system for these events? 

In your first post which finals match was a parent removed? I had security by me the entire day with a radio I wasn’t aware of anyone removed or is that rumor you are spreading? 

There were 4 team points taken the first day by the same official who has done the state finals and the girls state finals in softball. Who I think is a really good official also. Again I was sitting next to the track guru so I am more then aware of the situation. So again spreading mis truths. 

Where are the wrestlers and parents that were going crazy?  not one mention on this public forum. The response in this post has been positive of the officiating. You seem to be the only person upset. 

Also if you are the voice of criticism for officials where was your voice last year as the state finals for those questionable calls? 

Again I don’t expect you to have the same opinion as I but don’t dismiss my opinion based on a “friendship” or because you have done this longer then I

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Posted (edited)

https://youtu.be/a_V5WYIZrZU

 

Anyone who is unaware of the conversation. here is the finals all taped. Watch and let us know if you can find the 2 officials Awood would have you believe are ruining the al Smith and form your own opinion. 

Edited by ontherise219

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25 minutes ago, ontherise219 said:

https://youtu.be/a_V5WYIZrZU

 

Anyone who is unaware of the conversation. here is the finals all taped. Watch and let us know if you can find the 2 officials Awood would have you believe are ruining the al Smith and form your own opinion. 

Thanks for the link to the AL Smith finals.... now I dont have to search for it... :)

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I respect and appreciate the forum and the opportunity is gives for casual fans and wrestling supports to sound off.  This is the 3-4th time I have logged on this year.  When something strikes me that I want to share I am very careful to not use names or specific references.  I don't appreciate you using names and situations involving officials just to show that wrestling officials sometimes make calls we don't agree with.  Out of respect for the real best officials in the IHSAA I would ask that you remove the names of other officials from your post.

Of course, I did not voice my opinion to these officials.  I have worked this tournament.  There is no way an official should have to answer to anyone with $20 for a seat in the rafters.  That would be as inappropriate as your previous post.  Posting on a forum with no names, no name of the tourney, and detailing the difference in the rules is my choice of discourse.  You made this personal, and so did he when he direct messaged me.

Since you are so enthusiastic about making poking holes in my story here you go...

Fact Checker: The situation I mentioned was to your left, south end of the gym, during the finals. *paraphrasing some parts*

Athlete: "I can't compete against the kid and the ref too.  This is ridiculous.  How many times does this have to happen?"

Coach: "I know.  Just come with me.  There's nothing I can do about it." 

As they pace the walkway slowly making their way to the stairs behind me.

Mother: "It's ridiculous.  The same ref again."

Woman in collared button-down shirt: "You're being unsportsmanlike.  You need to let it go."  

She escorted her downstairs.  Later as I went to use the restroom she was still there with the mother as she talked to one of the coaches at the floor entrance door.

I will not share anymore detail out of respect for the folks who have been tormented enough.

To your other points:

Your claim that it was only during the finals is false.  I left one gym and never returned on day 1 b/c one of the NCAA officials told me to pass the message that he just gave a coach a misconduct.  I wasn't going to do that.

If anyone of my friends ever got on a forum and defended me the way you are defending your friend I would stop you.  As a referee of any contest at the high school level your ego has to take a backseat.  I understand it's different in college (b/c I refereed college for one season).  This is a place for us to talk all things wrestling.  I am not the first person to post a vague complaint about how a tournament was officiated.  This is the first time that the official I was referring to ever contacted me via direct message to defend himself.  I'll let everyone form their own opinions of that.

 

My lunch break is over and I am done posting on this topic.  Obviously, there is an enormous amount of bias on the site regarding this topic.  I'm sure we will see each other near a mat soon.  Two thoughts to consider if you try to bring up this topic with me near a mat: 1) If I am working the tournament i won't discuss things like this until I am done.  I will be working Saturday and I need to split ASAP.  Catch me another day.  2) I am not old, but my body is very high mileage.  If you get you blood pressure to high too easily don't bother.  I am only up for an enthusiastic exchange of words.  Just be forewarned, I have a huge vocabulary and I know how to use it.  Bring a dictionary if you have to.  

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31 minutes ago, Fabio Jr. said:

So what is your take on the call that singlehandedly decided the state championship last year? 

faottore fiasco? 

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41 minutes ago, awood2 said:

Of course, I did not voice my opinion to these officials.  I have worked this tournament.  There is no way an official should have to answer to anyone with $20 for a seat in the rafters.  That would be as inappropriate as your previous post.  Posting on a forum with no names, no name of the tourney, and detailing the difference in the rules is my choice of discourse.  You made this personal, and so did he when he direct messaged me.

 

Voicing an opinion to officials at live events is not nearly as inappropriate as an actual official &/or ex-official complaining about other officials on a social media forum - shame on you, SHAME ON YOU! No specific names is no excuse.

If you have an issue with any official who you believe is doing a poor job (for any reason) then confront that official privately or hold your opinion to yourself.

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1 hour ago, awood2 said:

Two thoughts to consider if you try to bring up this topic with me near a mat: 1) If I am working the tournament i won't discuss things like this until I am done.  I will be working Saturday and I need to split ASAP.  Catch me another day.  2) I am not old, but my body is very high mileage.  If you get you blood pressure to high too easily don't bother.  I am only up for an enthusiastic exchange of words.  Just be forewarned, I have a huge vocabulary and I know how to use it.  Bring a dictionary if you have to.  

First I am not sure I even know you. I don’t want you to take that as disrespect. I am aware of you because some one told me Saturday but I was really busy. We are letting this topic go in a direction I don’t like. I view a lot of the officials there as friends and would have defended their style of officiating the same way. 

The way you presented the situation you knew other officials and coaches would know who you were referring to which by your own post is wrong. 

Do I agree with every call I see no, absolutely not. But these men are humans and will call matches different let. I agree to disagree 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ontherise219 said:

First I am not sure I even know you. I don’t want you to take that as disrespect. I am aware of you because some one told me Saturday but I was really busy. We are letting this topic go in a direction I don’t like. I view a lot of the officials there as friends and would have defended their style of officiating the same way. 

The way you presented the situation you knew other officials and coaches would know who you were referring to which by your own post is wrong. 

Do I agree with every call I see no, absolutely not. But these men are humans and will call matches different let. I agree to disagree 

You and I will get along fine.  I was just on the phone with Barry.  This topic has completely lost it's point.  It's not productive.  I will take it down.  Not right this moment, but it will come down.  If any thing I just ask that you read the first post.  There is a point in there.  After that...  I'll do anything I have to to keep Barry from calling me again.

Edited by awood2

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Posted (edited)
On ‎1‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 8:31 AM, awood2 said:

I know the IHSAA is short on officials, but this holiday I saw NCAA officials on high school mats creating quite a stir (bluntly, a black-eye on our sport).  I'm gonna state the obvious - there is a difference in college & high school rules.  The NCAA officials taking high school matches need to understand the differences, why there is a difference, and they should agree to call the high school rules when on a high school mat!  The number of coaches with misconduct warning, team points taken, athletes losing their minds in the bleachers b/c they are shocked in the difference between calls per match at the same tourney, and even parents being removed b/c they were so upset after a finals match that was called by a NCAA ref...

  1. not calling stalling on the top man (stalemate instead)
  2. out-of-bounds
  3. reaction time (the need for it)
  4. potentially dangerous holds
  5. in high school we want coaches to approach us when they don't understand so they can be a better coach for this athletes in all situations

Finally, the NCAA officials I watched do not apply for the IHSAA tournament series.  Therefore, the coaches involved have no recourse, or voting power to rank these officials.  We are putting our best wrestlers on the biggest stages over the holidays and our officials shouldn't try to upstage the athletes.

This caught my attention,  but conventional wisdom is that its more difficult to qualify as a college ref then high school, and at the college level they get tougher evaluations then the high school level.  So this referee obviously has experience and is addressing his professionalism.   Also,   not sure of the refs status on applying for state tourney, but this referee still went through the process to  be an IHSAA ref.   I think its fair to say this referee is a NCAA referee and an IHSAA referee.    Ill give you there's a difference is NCAA officiating and high school, with some rules and even how things called, so line got blurred.    But Also I can see a parent of fan thats bias, and  not liking a call and making an excuse for a kids loss because they though they had a referee that's also a college official.

On your points without seeing the match, and don't time to review the whole finals even though I just scanned through on youtube.

1.   Calling stalling and/or stalemates on top is very subjective.   Nothing wrong with calling stalemate on top.  Maybe call one or two then go to stalling.  Referee might be trying to move match along.

2.   Out of Bounds rules are different between NCAA and NFHS.    So did the referee apply the rules wrong here?  Did coach question the application?

3. Reaction time:   So what on a locked on hands call?  Yes the college game moves a lot faster, but is there a reaction time rule in High school that's different?  Yes, college refs have need to get a takedown or change of postion call ASAP as its affects riding time.  Be more specific here where reaction time is different.

4.  Potentially dangerous,  NCAA lets some kids go crank on shoulders and legs more,  but was there a certain position where the ref should have made a  PD call?

5.   High school refs (during the match) want only to be approached to the scorers table and generally don't want to be approached during a match.   Most refs would be glad to talk to the coaches after the match to discuss a call or situation (as long as its constructive).    Is it really any different at the NCAA level?

Also, there's not that much of a shortage of refs.  And i'm sure a big tournament like the Al Smith gets the pick  of referees,  so whoever this ref was he has impressed somebody to get an invite to ref this.  And since when do NCAA refs want to upstage college athletes.     The mentality of a good referee is to call the best match and apply the rules correctly.

Email me the match or matches in question,  I don't mind you opening the discussion.  

 

 

Edited by Wrestling Scholar

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I agree with your points about NCAA refs in your opening.  The point I was trying to make was that the enforcement was not what you would expect on a high school mat.  Having experience with both it was obvious.  Also, I am not the first person to bring this up.  To my knowledge it has been brought up and feedback has been ignored.  I felt strongly that it was not fair to the athletes and/or coaches involved.  Apparently, I struck a nerve with some people who are close to one of the officials.  My point is the same.  Due to the resulting personal attacks I will take my comments down.  It does not change my feelings about how rules were applied those two days of competition.  I have no dog in the fight.  I love wrestling, period.

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But officials (or former officials) calling out other officials on a public forum is wrong - period.

You went way beyond simply bringing up a point about NCAA rules being improperly applied on a HS mat. You categorized it as a black eye on our sport & even went as far as accusing these officials of trying to upstage the athletes. And you gave enough information for others to conclude exactly what event you were referring to.

If you are very versed in both HS & collegiate rules with a intimate understanding of the differences and witness what you believe to be an inappropriate application of the pertinent rules at a given level, then you should discuss this with the official privately or keep it to yourself.

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31 minutes ago, Wrestlingaddict101 said:

I believe Fabio is talking about the mulkey match where mulkey got hit for stalling late in the match in the semifinals

I remember that 1 too..

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Wow.  It has been 7-8 years since I've been on this site.  And now that I am no longer an official, I am back as a fan (not a former official).

My head is about to explode.

I don't know where to start.

Wrestling Scholar...you are mostly wrong.

SIAC fan...you are less wrong than WS but still mostly wrong.

AWood2...you are mostly right but wrong on occasion.

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