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SWINfan

Wow - Fattore pinned himself!

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Ya know. At least it wasn’t a big match or an undefeated season on the line. I like both kids and just wanted to see a good match....horrible call. Let the guys wrestle!  Looked more like a ref wanting attention to me! 

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Unfortunate...however he is flat on his back at this point.  Tough call but I don’t see how you can blame the Ref.  

5F227B24-8CBB-4F98-8DD2-D6D32B5C4840.jpeg

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The back exposure was no longer than any type of roll through tilt. It was not pretty but not a pin, imo.

This kid has such a bright future outside of wrestling maybe he will look back and laugh about the time the ref said he pinned himself.

Well mannered, humbleness and self composure are rare traits these days.

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4 minutes ago, WingT said:

Trackwrestling pulled the video.  They are hiding the bad call.

No they didn't, I JUST watched it

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3 minutes ago, SWINfan said:

No they didn't, I JUST watched it

I get a playback error only on that match.  Ill keep trying.

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I just re-watched it 3x.  The still shot posted is after his shoulder blades were flat.  He put himself in that position with his left shoulder up and right down. The ref saw it and moved into position.  He rolled slowly to get back points and as he rolled from one shoulder to another, he was flat for a split second.  By the time the ref slapped the mat, his right shoulder was off the mat.  It was quick.  I don't pretend to know how they teach that or if there is a specific rule for defensive pins.  I've seen many a wrestler put himself in that position, but by the time the ref gets down to see it, the moment has passed.  Today it just happened for a split second 2' from the refs nose.  I can't say whether the call was right or wrong and my "common sense meter" says its probably a call you don't make that quickly.  But it could very well be technically the correct call.

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2 minutes ago, SWINfan said:

I just re-watched it 3x.  The still shot posted is after his shoulder blades were flat.  He put himself in that position with his left shoulder up and right down. The ref saw it and moved into position.  He rolled slowly to get back points and as he rolled from one shoulder to another, he was flat for a split second.  By the time the ref slapped the mat, his right shoulder was off the mat.  It was quick.  I don't pretend to know how they teach that or if there is a specific rule for defensive pins.  I've seen many a wrestler put himself in that position, but by the time the ref gets down to see it, the moment has passed.  Today it just happened for a split second 2' from the refs nose.  I can't say whether the call was right or wrong and my "common sense meter" says its probably a call you don't make that quickly.  But it could very well be technically the correct call.

At what point do we want the Ref to make calls that are not “technically right”?

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7 minutes ago, Caleb Spires said:

Oh wow, that is rough...

After seeing this one, that was rather brief. I wouldn’t have called it. It is sad to see his run for a state title end that way, but unfortunately he isn’t the first or last kid who will be on the wrong side of questionable call. I’m glad he handled it well. Shows he must have a lot of character. Best of luck wrestling 3rd.

12 minutes ago, brickfor6 said:

Cut the guy some slack, kid just got robbed, and when we argue a call we get hit with misconduct...it is stubbornness.

I understand the frustrations of a coach who thinks his kid was robbed. I’ve sat in that seat myself. But as a coach, you need to understand what and how you are arguing. There are some coaches who do a great job at this, and others could use a few pointers.

Since I’m now familiar with the process, I’ll weigh in for anyone out there in hopes to help in future situations:

If you are a coach and you have an issue with a call, you can ask the official for clarification on how they applied to rule at the table. This has to happen at the scorers table. This is rule 6-6-6:

“When a coach believes the referee has misapplied a rule or disagrees with judgement, the coach may approach the score’s table, request the match to be stopped (when there is no significant  action) and discuss the matter with the referee directly in front of the scorer’s table...If the referee has misapplied a rule, necessary adjustments will be made, an explanation to the opposing coach will be made and wrestling will immediately be resumed. If there is no error, or if the coach disagrees with the referee’s judgement, the coaching staff will be penalized for coach misconduct...”

If you are questioning/arguing a judgement call, the ref is following the rules by giving a coaches misconduct. The first is a warning, the second will result in a lost team point, the third will result in the head coach for the reminder of the day. So if you want to fight for your kid knowing you will get that warning, go right ahead. If it is worth 1 team point to do it a second time, go right ahead. I’m not going to stop you. But it isn’t plan stubbornness—it is just the rule.

If you continue to lay into the official, come out onto the mat, and use some choice words, you are going to be hit with a flagrant misconduct that will result in -3 team points and an ejection/removal from the building for the remainder of the tournament.

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Really nice foresight by the Peru coaches on this. They seen the chance for a defensive fall as soon as he pulled him on top of himself and got the ref into place. "Quick" call or not he was flat and is at the ref's mercy at that point -_- 

Edited by towelboy08

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1 minute ago, JC3390 said:

At what point do we want the Ref to make calls that are not “technically right”?

I'm not arguing for or against and am trying to see it from both sides and present all.  But I can tell you as a former baseball umpire, there are many times you don't make calls that are "technically" right and are taught that way.  I've never refereed wrestling so I would have to defer that to others, but referees in general study.  They look at situations and evaluate how they were called, could have been called and in some circumstances should have been called.  Even then, you will never get 100% agreement, because so much of it is judgement.  So I can't  say whether that was the right call for that moment.  Trying to extrapolate from my umpiring days, my gut says, don't make that call unless there is a bit longer, but we're splitting seconds here.  

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1 hour ago, navy80 said:

I’m now a fan of Fattore...he handled that loss with class. He didn’t throw a fit or take off running to the locker room. 

That's because he knew it was a pin u crybabies 

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2 minutes ago, SWINfan said:

I'm not arguing for or against and am trying to see it from both sides and present all.  But I can tell you as a former baseball umpire, there are many times you don't make calls that are "technically" right and are taught that way.  I've never refereed wrestling so I would have to defer that to others, but referees in general study.  They look at situations and evaluate how they were called, could have been called and in some circumstances should have been called.  Even then, you will never get 100% agreement, because so much of it is judgement.  So I can't  say whether that was the right call for that moment.  Trying to extrapolate from my umpiring days, my gut says, don't make that call unless there is a bit longer, but we're splitting seconds here.  

Agreed. I have just seen others piling on the Refs and don’t see where that is appropriate here. The Ref was right on top of this and made a judgment call. Who are we to argue other than saying that we wouldn’t have called it that way because of a specific reason. That reason should be something other than he’s a great kid or he deserves a chance to wrestle under the lights. It should be something rules based not emotionally based. 

It was a tough call glad I didn’t have to make that decision. 

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2 minutes ago, JC3390 said:

Agreed. I have just seen others piling on the Refs and don’t see where that is appropriate here. The Ref was right on top of this and made a judgment call. Who are we to argue other than saying that we wouldn’t have called it that way because of a specific reason. That reason should be something other than he’s a great kid or he deserves a chance to wrestle under the lights. It should be something rules based not emotionally based. 

It was a tough call glad I didn’t have to make that decision. 

I think we agree 100%!

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My first post of the year but I can not sit silent for this b s call. I was 25 ft away mat level. This type of officiating is what calls into question the integrity of officials in general. A ft wayne official making a redicullous call like this in favor of a wrestler from the ft semi state. PATHETIC at best. Get your scratch sheets ready. Any decent official wouldn't have made that call in a fees tyler match. He needs to be sat in front of this video and imbarassed.

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3 hours ago, SWINfan said:

It was quick for a defensive pin call...   but his shoulders were both flat for a second and the ref was right there.  If the ref was in a different position, he wouldn't have seen it.  

If that's really your take.... I had same angle as ref I was middle of mat 2 during injury time. That particular ref should not get a sectional assignment in the future I know we will scratch him from this point on. No less than pathetic call

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While this was a tough call, I think it was the right call from the refs view. As I watched it again and seeing Fatore executing a tilt, Rader does get his arm under the knee, reaching for the head thus getting Fatore to his back. This from the angle of the ref looks like a defensive pin and by the time he gets to position Fatore is indeed in a pinning situation.  Though only briefly, it was a judgemental call. 

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9 minutes ago, 1prouddad said:

While this was a tough call, I think it was the right call from the refs view. As I watched it again and seeing Fatore executing a tilt, Rader does get his arm under the knee, reaching for the head thus getting Fatore to his back. This from the angle of the ref looks like a defensive pin and by the time he gets to position Fatore is indeed in a pinning situation.  Though only briefly, it was a judgemental call. 

Define brief?

How long do you think a wrestler needs to be flat in HS rules?

Robbery in Broad daylight in front of 10,000 people.

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I'd say the ref thought he was in a pinning situation while to the side of the wrestlers and as he moved into better position, so did Fatores shoulders. Once again tough call

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Fattore might have been in defensive pin position, but by the time ref got into position to look, Fattore's shoulders were obviously up.  He didnt even have a one count.  Please note the rule book says 2 seconds got a pin.   And when he was calling a phantom defensive pin on Fattore,  Fattore adjusted his position, and Rader was in pin position. If youre going to call a controversial defensive pin in state semi finals, you better be sure and see it for two seconds, and not take the opposing coaches word for it and assume he was pinned.   Some refs with big egos want the match to be about them, and not the kids.  Aggregious call.  I hope this ref looks at this video.

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Good luck to the 170lbers the finals. From what I was told Crary isn’t wrestling in the 3rd place match. So Fattore outscored opponents 34-0 and got 3rd. No matter what you think of the call that has got to be a first. Unscored upon.... and didn’t win

Edited by BlackshirtD

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