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If wrestling was a class sport........


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The other major contributing factor is the multi sport kid at a small school. The pool of athletes is smaller therefore we have to share kids to maintain successful programs. We have a very good football program. 20 of my 27 high school wrestlers played football and a couple run cross country. Come spring time several are playing ball. 

The hard work argument is not an issue. They work hard, just not always in the sport of wrestling. We try to coordinate our off season schedule with the football guys so the boys can participate in both. 

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20 minutes ago, base said:

@Fabio - no offense taken by that, and I also don't want to just argue but to discuss options.

I'd like to take what you experienced and add that to my argument. You went to a LARGE school. The numbers were also down there. You increased participation, not by splitting into a segment so that your kids would be successful, but by using a combination of good coaching, great communication with parents, fantastic self-promotion of of the program and dedicating tons of the coaches time to getting a thriving youth program going. I believe you were also blessed with arriving at a program that already had some national-level wrestlers (BLee and Walton at least) among the teammates.

That formula could work at a small school too, to some extent. And in fact, my guess is that it is happening at some of the more successful small schools. The limiting factor is number of potential wrestlers. Without doing some of these other things, even adding 3 or maybe 7 wrestlers to an already struggling program isn't going to do much. I am proposing that the coaches association try to promote some additional measures that could raise the level of quality across the board. I don't think that is selfish.  The multi-class approach will not guarantee that a 185 pound wrestler is going to have quality practice partners if a team moves from 5 to 12 wrestlers.

The thing is it is infinitely harder to have that type of success at a small school. 

Why is a proven coach going to go from having success at a bigger school to a small school? It doesn't happen unless there are some crazy circumstances. Attracting good coaches is hard for a small school due to less availability for teaching positions, being in rural areas, less pay(teaching and coaching), amongst other reasons.

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8 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

The thing is it is infinitely harder to have that type of success at a small school. 

Why is a proven coach going to go from having success at a bigger school to a small school? It doesn't happen unless there are some crazy circumstances. Attracting good coaches is hard for a small school due to less availability for teaching positions, being in rural areas, less pay(teaching and coaching), amongst other reasons.

No disrespect but are any of those scenarios changed because we go to a class system?

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2 minutes ago, UncleJimmy said:

No disrespect but are any of those scenarios changed because we go to a class system?

The opportunity for success increases at small schools in a classed system, thus the "amongst other things" part increases. 

I also have seen that once a program starts having success more people stick around the program to help out. For instance at Garrett their first state qualifier was in 2003 and they have had state qualifiers every year but one since then. Just this year there are four alumni that wrestled for the program helping out with three of them former state qualifiers. When I coached there, I was the only one and was obviously not a state qualifier.

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Joe I'm curious - for your first state qualifier -- was he from a wrestling family?

Another pattern I have seen over the years is that a small school will sometimes get a "bubble" of kids that might start in the sport young due to a former wrestler (or wrestling coach) getting them into the sport and then they all come up together. Not always,but sometimes there is a dropoff once the coach's kid and their bubble group get through the system as there isn't a consistent pipeline of development just a highly increased interest in one age group.

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18 minutes ago, base said:

Joe I'm curious - for your first state qualifier -- was he from a wrestling family?

Another pattern I have seen over the years is that a small school will sometimes get a "bubble" of kids that might start in the sport young due to a former wrestler (or wrestling coach) getting them into the sport and then they all come up together. Not always,but sometimes there is a dropoff once the coach's kid and their bubble group get through the system as there isn't a consistent pipeline of development just a highly increased interest in one age group.

I would probably say yes, but also not sure of your definition. Dad was a football coach and wrestled in college. He is also a top state level ref still.

What you are defining is not a program, but just an influx of talent for a few years. I have seen that quite often in programs that have short term success.

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It really all starts back in the youth level. Kids from larger (i.e. the region, indy) communities have regular access to regular youth meets practically right in their back yard as soon as they are ready to start wrestling. If you are from a smaller community, chances are you'll have to drive at least an hour to get to a youth meet. This makes it easier to build a youth culture at a larger school, thus making it easier to have kids identify earlier as wrestlers, thus making it easier to retain them beyond middle school.

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3 minutes ago, Galagore said:

It really all starts back in the youth level. Kids from larger (i.e. the region, indy) communities have regular access to regular youth meets practically right in their back yard as soon as they are ready to start wrestling. If you are from a smaller community, chances are you'll have to drive at least an hour to get to a youth meet. This makes it easier to build a youth culture at a larger school, thus making it easier to have kids identify earlier as wrestlers, thus making it easier to retain them beyond middle school.

100% agree - youth group may be the key ingredient

Galagore - what do you think about these ideas and keep the single class individual tournament:

1. Similar to RTCs, Indiana Wrestling community places a focus on lots of local youth academies to provide quality, cheap training

2. Add one or two rounds to state meet. Major schools could attend the final rounds where they see the real top D-1 sort of wrestlers, while smaller colleges could choose to send their coaches to earlier rounds which may be more likely targets. This rewards the kids one level back from current state meet and irregardless of HS size

3. IHSAA allows small schools to co-host training with other schools in order to provide a better variety of drill partners and (if the small school coaches can work together) a chance at some coaching mentorship

4. Expand the State Team Duals to include more teams for the small classes (maybe increasing to 16 or even do an all-in approach for 1A schools?). More teams will be able to have the tag of state qualifier

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All of those options sounds great, but who organizes and sponsors all of it? I think this would be great to incorporate regardless of classing versus not classing.

One thing that people who haven't seen both sides of the fence fail to realize is that small schools and larger schools are very nearly playing a different game. It isn't even about "fairness" it is about having an appropriate tournament for each game being played. Small schools are playing a game where success is a full line-up, starters making it through the season, coaching staff remaining consistent year-to-year.

Who has spent meaningful time at a small school (less than say 650 students) and at a large school (more than say 1000 students) and is honestly against classing the tournament?

Edited by Galagore
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I think the classed Team Duals are awesome and it is so much fun to watch the 1A and 2A schools get after it and bring great crowds.  Does anyone have any information on what this has done to participation levels at smaller schools?  Could this be an argument for or against classing the individual tournament?  As it stands right now there are right around 150 kids each in 1A and 2A that get to compete in the team duals which is a pretty significant number.  

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Wrestling will survive in a multi-class system or in a single class system.

The question is better versus best. Class wrestling seems to help develop depth this seems fairly quantifiable considering 1) surrounding states such as Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, Minnesota, Iowa, Pennsylvania, and New York are historically considered better wrestling states than Indiana; 2) it exposes more kids to college coaches, giving more student-athletes the opportunity to compete in college, gain experience, earn a degree and go back to their community and contribute to their local wrestling community. 

If wrestling wants to grow in numbers its about promotion. Does specializing in a sport hurt the overall sport? I think this is to be determined. 

Indiana is battling against history. However, wrestle-backs throughout the state tournament would help improve an already great state tournament dramatically (no intention to open pandoras box with this sentence).  It is ingrained in the fan base that they want a single class with "one true state champion." However, none of our systems are set up that way look at the NCAA. There are division I, II, III national champions as well as NAIA national champions. Depending on the size of the school even at the collegiate level they are afforded more resources and opportunities. And I highly doubt Mr. LeFever the four time national champion doesn't consider himself a "true national champion." 

The reality in life is not everyone can be doctors, or lawyers, or politicians, or professional athletes but all can optimize their potential given their specific skill set and exceed their perceived limitations. Wrestling is a sport that helps promote mental, physical, and emotional toughness and if classing the sport gives more individuals opportunities to further develop those skill sets then it should be considered. 

Also, success leads to growth. People love being part of a successful movement. If some of the smaller schools start to have more success eventually the community and students will get behind them because it is exciting to be part of a winning tradition or a foundation that leads to a winning tradition. 

One thing that I will say is special about this message board and Indiana wrestling fans in general is that they are passionate and truly want to grow the sport. As someone who has lived in Indiana, Arizona, and now Texas - I wish the great state of Texas had a community as passionate about yours as growing the sport. 

 

 

 

 

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I agree with @jetwrestling. Team State duals is a great way for schools to showcase their kids/programs against schools on a more level playing ground. I think it has contributed to a few more kids coming out for us.  Although I'm at a small schooI, I fully support having a single class individual state finals and hope Indiana keeps it that way.

Having said that, a classed individual state tournament would however, I think, help grow the sport for small schools, much like team state probably has. Couple more kids come out for wrestling, more kids advance, more kids place, and possibly a state champ here or there? Maybe more college possibilities? I see the upside to it.  

Brett Smith 

Prairie Heights Wrestling

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Has anyone looked at where the venues would be if it went to a class system? I'm not arguing either way I was just curious as to how far a 1A school would have to travel for each round, again just curious, I understand that wrestlers travel a lot anyway

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2 minutes ago, tyquhp13 said:

Has anyone looked at where the venues would be if it went to a class system? I'm not arguing either way I was just curious as to how far a 1A school would have to travel for each round, again just curious, I understand that wrestlers travel a lot anyway

I really doubt venue locations is that big of a deal when we already have teams traveling an hour for sectional in our current system.

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Just as a point of contention, the same argument (growing the sport and getting more participation) was also used for class basketball but the results haven't really been seen.  My point in bringing that up isn't just to say it was a failure per se...it's a complicated issue and there's a LOT that goes into it.  

But just as importantly, my contention is that splitting into classes will not dramatically have an effect on participation numbers.  A 1A school with a struggling program will not magically attract 20 kids to wrestle just because they think they have a chance at a sectional title.  It is a very real concern, when we have forfeits now, that you don't have 3 entries at 106 in an 8 man field in the 1A sectional.   That would suck. 

Equally, splitting into a multi-class individual tourney will not ruin Indiana High School wrestling.  Nothing will be diluted...it's not diluted elsewhere.  So I think we all need to concede that good points are being made on all sides.

I can only go by what I know, which is that I am someone that loves HS sports, is a coach at the HS level, and appreciates everything that HS sports does.  I also have first hand knowledge and witness to what has been done at Brownsburg, where a program was dead and is now the beast it is.  Sure, having BLee living a good 4-iron away from the school helped, but it's so much more than that.  Coach Snyder and staff have absolutely worked their backsides off to actively get the most out of the kids they have, but also DEVELOP the program from the ground up.  I've shared in a previous post, but I'm new to this sport.  My son is a 6th grader that started wrestling after vising Bankers Life in 2016 to watch the state finals...a trip we initially went on because I had some football players there.  I didn't know it then, but that lit a spark in my little dude.  After being a good basketball player his entire life, he surprised me last year in the middle of football season by stating he wanted to wrestle that winter.  

Was this due solely to the #PainTrain success in 2016?  Not hardly, but it obviously did have an effect.  Every summer, Coach Snyder and staff have a 1 day wrestling camp specifically for beginners.  But they don't just have it and show up and pass out Tshirts, they WORK it and identify with kids...and specifically target those with some natural ability.  So my son wanted to sign up for that 1 day camp.  He did, had some "success" in that environment (fun), and either Fabio or Snyder said something to him that took the spark and lit a fire I didn't even know was burning.  He then participated in Club, loved it, and now is in an academy practice after his middle school practice every day there isn't a meet.  All the while he still sucks at wrestling and gets it handed to him against older and more experienced boys, but knows in this sport that hard work and dedication will eventually be rewarded.  But, like anything, the encouragement and care shown by the high school staff at every chance really matters.

This is not unique to our family.  Numbers are up a crazy amount throughout the entire program.   

So why share this?  Because this class discussion is really about participation.  Here's some ideas I have:

  • If you think you have to have kids that specialize in wrestling, get over yourself.  You gotta share athletes...and that truly means keeping your hands off during another season (besides showing up and cheering your a$$ off for one of your wrestlers).  Nathan Walton is a phenomenal wrestling talent...he's also a phenomenal SS/OLB.  Not once was he told to come to a wrestling activity during football season.  The same holds true in reverse...and at Bburg coaches will actively kick kids out if they are in the middle of another season.  This is a must if you want increased numbers for all. 
  • Get team state (classed) moved to a different time and promote it differently.  I'm sure it's a long story, but why is the IHSAA not a part of this??  Why is it at the worst possible time (Over Christmas)?  Why are not more teams involved?
  • There is no substitute for hard work...as a wrestler or as a coach. You're going to have to get out in the community and identify talent as early as possible.  You're going to have to develop them.  
  • Make it fun.  There's a reason there is a DJ, spotlights, and a fog machine when the #PainTrain has a dual.  You think the little guys aren't noticing how freaking cool it is?
  • Consider training for parents!  The wrestling community is awesome in how supportive it is...but it also suffers by the curse of knowledge and has a language all it's own.  If you have an intro event for kids, also have an intro for the parents in the stands.  Explain scoring, philosophy, etc.  It wasn't until recently that I understood that yelling to whizzer to a kid does not mean that the kid needs a bathroom break.  My mom, God love her, is 74 and never been around the sport.  I need to heed my own advice and not get frustrated when she asks me for the 149th time "why did that kid get a point??" or "why do they go back to the middle, and why is that other boy on top??"  

As a newbie my kid and I have gone hard core for the sport, but we're fortunate to be where we are.  If we had an average program or an average coach and staff, I'd still be posting on a hoops board somewhere.  And that is the same if we were at a 6A school or a 1A school.  Keeping this awesome individual tournament won't be the death of wrestling.  But neither will classing it.  Instead, devote energy to growing this awesome sport however and by whatever means necessary.

Edited by Kookie953
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13 minutes ago, Kookie953 said:

Just as a point of contention, the same argument (growing the sport and getting more participation) was also used for class basketball but the results haven't really been seen.  My point in bringing that up isn't just to say it was a failure per se...it's a complicated issue and there's a LOT that goes into it.  

But just as importantly, my contention is that splitting into classes will not dramatically have an effect on participation numbers.  A 1A school with a struggling program will not magically attract 20 kids to wrestle just because they think they have a chance at a sectional title.  It is a very real concern, when we have forfeits now, that you don't have 3 entries at 106 in an 8 man field in the 1A sectional.   That would suck. 

Equally, splitting into a multi-class individual tourney will not ruin Indiana High School wrestling.  Nothing will be diluted...it's not diluted elsewhere.  So I think we all need to concede that good points are being made on all sides.

I can only go by what I know, which is that I am someone that loves HS sports, is a coach at the HS level, and appreciates everything that HS sports does.  I also have first hand knowledge and witness to what has been done at Brownsburg, where a program was dead and is now the beast it is.  Sure, having BLee living a good 4-iron away from the school helped, but it's so much more than that.  Coach Snyder and staff have absolutely worked their backsides off to actively get the most out of the kids they have, but also DEVELOP the program from the ground up.  I've shared in a previous post, but I'm new to this sport.  My son is a 6th grader that started wrestling after vising Bankers Life in 2016 to watch the state finals...a trip we initially went on because I had some football players there.  I didn't know it then, but that lit a spark in my little dude.  After being a good basketball player his entire life, he surprised me last year in the middle of football season by stating he wanted to wrestle that winter.  

Was this due solely to the #PainTrain success in 2016?  Not hardly, but it obviously did have an effect.  Every summer, Coach Snyder and staff have a 1 day wrestling camp specifically for beginners.  But they don't just have it and show up and pass out Tshirts, they WORK it and identify with kids...and specifically target those with some natural ability.  So my son wanted to sign up for that 1 day camp.  He did, had some "success" in that environment (fun), and either Fabio or Snyder said something to him that took the spark and lit a fire I didn't even know was burning.  He then participated in Club, loved it, and now is in an academy practice after his middle school practice every day there isn't a meet.  All the while he still sucks at wrestling and gets it handed to him against older and more experienced boys, but knows in this sport that hard work and dedication will eventually be rewarded.  But, like anything, the encouragement and care shown by the high school staff at every chance really matters.

This is not unique to our family.  Numbers are up a crazy amount throughout the entire program.   

So why share this?  Because this class discussion is really about participation.  Here's some ideas I have:

  • If you think you have to have kids that specialize in wrestling, get over yourself.  You gotta share athletes...and that truly means keeping your hands off during another season (besides showing up and cheering your a$$ off for one of your wrestlers).  Nathan Walton is a phenomenal wrestling talent...he's also a phenomenal SS/OLB.  Not once was he told to come to a wrestling activity during football season.  The same holds true in reverse...and at Bburg coaches will actively kick kids out if they are in the middle of another season.  This is a must if you want increased numbers for all. 
  • Get team state (classed) moved to a different time and promote it differently.  I'm sure it's a long story, but why is the IHSAA not a part of this??  Why is it at the worst possible time (Over Christmas)?  Why are not more teams involved?
  • There is no substitute for hard work...as a wrestler or as a coach. You're going to have to get out in the community and identify talent as early as possible.  You're going to have to develop them.  
  • Make it fun.  There's a reason there is a DJ, spotlights, and a fog machine when the #PainTrain has a dual.  You think the little guys aren't noticing how freaking cool it is?
  • Consider training for parents!  The wrestling community is awesome in how supportive it is...but it also suffers by the curse of knowledge and has a language all it's own.  If you have an intro event for kids, also have an intro for the parents in the stands.  Explain scoring, philosophy, etc.  It wasn't until recently that I understood that yelling to whizzer to a kid does not mean that the kid needs a bathroom break.  My mom, God love her, is 74 and never been around the sport.  I need to heed my own advice and not get frustrated when she asks me for the 149th time "why did that kid get a point??" or "why do they go back to the middle, and why is that other boy on top??"  

As a newbie my kid and I have gone hard core for the sport, but we're fortunate to be where we are.  If we had an average program or an average coach and staff, I'd still be posting on a hoops board somewhere.  And that is the same if we were at a 6A school or a 1A school.  Keeping this awesome individual tournament won't be the death of wrestling.  But neither will classing it.  Instead, devote energy to growing this awesome sport however and by whatever means necessary.

Couple questions.

1. Why in your opinion has class basketball not worked?
2. On that same note why are we not seeing as many people wanting to change the other sports such as volleyball, baseball, soccer, etc?
3. Why do you think Snyder has had more success in a handful of years at Brownsburg than 10ish at Mishawaka? Mishawaka has a far greater wrestling tradition than Brownsburg.
 

 

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2 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Couple questions.

1. Why in your opinion has class basketball not worked?
2. On that same note why are we not seeing as many people wanting to change the other sports such as volleyball, baseball, soccer, etc?
3. Why do you think Snyder has had more success in a handful of years at Brownsburg than 10ish at Mishawaka? Mishawaka has a far greater wrestling tradition than Brownsburg.
 

 

1. no clue

2. no clue

3. BBurg had the ground work for this great wrestling talent, but it was never harvested before.  He came in and knew exactly what to do to harvest it and grow it and build it up.  Yea the current senior class is a once in a life time group of kids, but the rest of the team was there and @Darrick Snyder made them as successful as they currently are.  He took back up JV kids and made them state ranked kids in 2-3 yrs because of his knowledge, system, off season working and encouragement to branch outside to utilize the local academy training.  In short he is a coaching genius !!  Now having @Fabio Jr. obviously is just icing on the cake.

Bburg will be a team to contend with for years to come because of the talent in the community.  This simply would not have happened under the previous "system" of wrestling from Nov to Feb w/no off season or academy supported training.

#PainTrain

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  • It's difficult to attribute to a single reason for why class basketball "hasn't worked"...and nobody is necessarily saying it hasn't.  But it hasn't been as successful as promised.  I know this because my senior year was the last year for the single class tournament, and I actually spoke out against it as a player to the IHSAA.  (For those that know me personally, don't laugh...yes I used to play basketball.  Screw you for giggling).  Full disclosure, I came from a huge 6A high school.  But a few things have definitely hurt attendance.  Most important was the killing of geographic rivalries in the sectional.  When smaller schools have to travel an hour or more for a sectional...when before it was 15 minutes playing against boys they grew up against...well that's dumb.  Nearly as important is defining "success" as winning a championship.  Do you really think winning a diluted regional against another smaller school isn't as meaningful as getting beat by a few points in a David vs Goliath matchup with the guys down the road?  Finally, specific to basketball and Indiana, Peyton Manning and The Colts happened and drew a lot of athletes to football.  Suddenly if you were a freak 6'3" athlete WR was as viable an option as SF or SG.
  • That one is simple...in basketball you can win with 1 phenomenal player and a few average scrappers that know their role.  But that's unique to basketball.  Not so much in other team sports, although you could argue (and do see) a dominant pitcher in baseball that carries a team.  Obviously this argument is moot in the most ultimate of individual sport there is.
  • I can't answer this.  I only know a bit of what Snyder did with the Cavemen since I wasn't really involved with wrestling, but my knowledge is that he killed it up there too.  All I know is that I see he and his staff devoting as much time to growing the sport and program at every level as he does to getting his guys at the high school to win.  If you watch him at any event, you will notice him interacting with all levels...from Kindergartners to middle-schoolers.  It's not a secret to how it's done, but it does require an extraordinary dude to make it happen.  But I gotta think he works as hard now in the off-season as he did up there.  
Edited by Kookie953
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8 minutes ago, Kookie953 said:
  • It's difficult to attribute to a single reason for why class basketball "hasn't worked"...and nobody is necessarily saying it hasn't.  But it hasn't been as successful as promised.  I know this because my senior year was the last year for the single class tournament, and I actually spoke out against it as a player to the IHSAA.  (For those that know me personally, don't laugh...yes I used to play basketball.  Screw you for giggling).  Full disclosure, I came from a huge 6A high school.  But a few things have definitely hurt attendance.  Most important was the killing of geographic rivalries in the sectional.  When smaller schools have to travel an hour or more for a sectional...when before it was 15 minutes playing against boys they grew up against...well that's dumb.  Nearly as important is defining "success" as winning a championship.  Do you really think winning a diluted regional against another smaller school isn't as meaningful as getting beat by a few points in a David vs Goliath matchup with the guys down the road?  Finally, specific to basketball and Indiana, Peyton Manning and The Colts happened and drew a lot of athletes to football.  Suddenly if you were a freak 6'3" athlete WR was as viable an option as SF or SG.
  • That one is simple...in basketball you can win with 1 phenomenal player and a few average scrappers that know their role.  But that's unique to basketball.  Not so much in other team sports, although you could argue (and do see) a dominant pitcher in baseball that carries a team.  Obviously this argument is moot in the most ultimate of individual sport there is.
  • I can't answer this.  I only know a bit of what Snyder did with the Cavemen since I wasn't really involved with wrestling, but my knowledge is that he killed it up there too.  All I know is that I see he and his staff devoting as much time to growing the sport and program at every level as he does to getting his guys at the high school to win.  If you watch him at any event, you will notice him interacting with all levels...from Kindergartners to middle-schoolers.  It's not a secret to how it's done, but it does require an extraordinary dude to make it happen.  But I gotta think he works as hard now in the off-season as he did up there.  

I'll answer the last one first, there are three main reasons
1. Good coach, obviously if you are a good coach you'll have success anywhere. Jim Tonte has success at Speedway(or whatever small school he started at), Brad Harper had success at Benton Central. However, neither were even sniffing a state title like they more than did at Perry Meridian, Warren Central, and Penn.

2. Location, location, location. Located in an area with many academies. Located near many local and state level events. While Mishawaka was in a bigger area of the state, it doesn't compare to Indianapolis.

3. School size, 2600 students walking around the building makes it a lot easier to find 14 good wrestlers than even 1400 at Mishawaka. 

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26 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

I'll answer the last one first, there are three main reasons
1. Good coach, obviously if you are a good coach you'll have success anywhere. Jim Tonte has success at Speedway(or whatever small school he started at), Brad Harper had success at Benton Central. However, neither were even sniffing a state title like they more than did at Perry Meridian, Warren Central, and Penn.

2. Location, location, location. Located in an area with many academies. Located near many local and state level events. While Mishawaka was in a bigger area of the state, it doesn't compare to Indianapolis.

3. School size, 2600 students walking around the building makes it a lot easier to find 14 good wrestlers than even 1400 at Mishawaka. 

He started at Tri-West. And had less than 10 kids on the team. But he did have a state qualifier both years he was there. No offense taken...

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