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aoberlin

Wrestlebacks Poll

Wrestlebacks  

201 members have voted

  1. 1. Are You In Favor of Wrestlebacks

    • Yes
      168
    • No
      32


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Recently I was given a statistic that surprised me on the percentage of people for wrestlebacks and I am interested to see if it would play out here.

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10 minutes ago, bog190 said:

I would enjoy hearing the logic against wrestlebacks.

You know its like the Geico commercial:  some people would rather spill coffee on themselves, Sit on gum or hit their heads on a beam before they would like to save money.

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I would love to see this. Just in case a quality wrestler has a hick up they can bounce back from it. I'm all for it!

 

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Just now, RKS22 said:

Accident. I think its a great idea.

 

Don't worry when the final statistics come out I will shift yours.

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1 minute ago, aoberlin said:

Don't worry when the final statistics come out I will shift yours.

Sounds great.

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Here’s my opinion:

If we want wrestlebacks from the IHSAA, do NOT argue a kid gets caught or has a bad match.  They say we aren’t valuing the effort and performance of the kid had who pulled the upset.  

Focus on the ridiculous draws that puts two placers against each other.  At Mishawaka Joey Smith beats Trace Hall of SB Riley in triple OT I believe to win the Regional.  We had lost to him like 3 times that year.  Our reward is we draw into Galka of Hobart who had been injured precious week.  Hall places at state and we lose in ticket round 3-2.  

Even better one: Trent Reinoehl beats Young of CMA in OT to win regional.  Churchard of Valpo and Roach of Crown Point are In same regional. Our reward?  We draw roach in ticket round and lose 3-2.  Chrurchard gets first, roach 2nd and young 3rd at state while we sit in the stands.  

If we are ever going to get wrestlebacks, it’s my opinion that these situations must be focus.  Don’t even bring up someone getting caught.  IHSAA will use that against us. 

 

Snyder 

Edited by Darrick Snyder

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The other thing is we get compared to other sports all the time. The bottom line is that wrestling is a 2 and done sport. That is how all good tournaments are ran at all levels.  But during the athletes most important tournament it is one and done at the most crucial time.

We are one of 5 states that isn't classed and the only state that doesn't have wrestlebacks.  We are nationally ranked in the top 20 consistently for High School wrestling.  How is that not a data point that matters?

I get it that they already think we have it better than other sports because we seed.  Heck our returning state champs girls basketball team just got knocked off first round by a local rival that is great this year and that should have been a sectional finals game.  But how is comparing other flawed systems to us a logical step or argument? I just really don't understand. This is after watching it and being a part of it for the last 25 years.  Every year it works me up.

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1 hour ago, Darrick Snyder said:

Here’s my opinion:

If we want wrestlebacks from the IHSAA, do NOT argue a kid gets caught or has a bad match.  They say we aren’t valuing the effort and performance of the kid had who pulled the upset.  

Focus on the ridiculous draws that puts two placers against each other.  At Mishawaka Joey Smith beats Trace Hall of SB Riley in triple OT I believe to win the Regional.  We had lost to him like 3 times that year.  Our reward is we draw into Galka of Hobart who had been injured precious week.  Hall places at state and we lose in ticket round 3-2.  

Even better one: Trent Reinoehl beats Young of CMA in OT to win regional.  Churchard of Valpo and Roach of Crown Point are In same regional. Our reward?  We draw roach in ticket round and lose 3-2.  Chrurchard gets first, roach 2nd and young 3rd at state while we sit in the stands.  

If we are ever going to get wrestlebacks, it’s my opinion that these situations must be focus.  Don’t even bring up someone getting caught.  IHSAA will use that against us. 

 

Snyder 

Coach - 

      I'm sure a lot of people in the wrestling community share your opinion and thoughts. (I am one of them) - However in my experience coaching in multiple sports (wrestling and football) - I believe wrestlebacks are going to run into the same "issue" that another hotly contested topic -seeding in football- runs into. Here me out:

     Every year around tournament time (in football), seeding the sectionals come up and is HOTLY contested. It makes no sense for the regular season to mean absolutely nothing, as it is now. Being a wrestling coach, I can't understand how we can NOT get this done....lock the coaches in a room, set some criteria, and don't come out till it is finished. The problem is not all of the coaches/programs want to see it happen as they are the "fortunate" ones on the side of a blind draw. They can say..."hey, we made it all the way to a sectional championship game" ....where as a 8-1 team might be knocked out round 1. 

    The same issue/argument is what you're going to run into with wrestlebacks. You're going to have almost half the State like the chance of staying away from the "death draw" so-to-speak. Right/wrong/indifferent...it makes it hard to gain a lot of traction. 

    In the end, there is going to be one champion and that is what it seems the IHSAA is concerned about in regards to seeding in football and wrestlebacks in wrestling. That's what I've heard/seen in my experiences in both. 

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I even wonder sometimes if drawing them into "stars knocking off stars too early" isn't beating a dead horse. They have that in all of their other sports tournaments--which is what they insist on comparing us to.

I think instead there's an argument to be built that we're NOT being treated like other sports. All other sports have their tournaments conducted in the way states around the country conduct them and in the way their sport's culture dictates--except ours. We're the only ones forced to fit into a box that is completely disassociated from the rest of the season structure and the sport nationally.  

AND I think we can give examples of other individual sports that have similarities to ours that they don't realize; namely, track, swimming, and gymnastics. In those sports, at each tournament round, we have the best people all together in one space and we find the genuine best and advance them. That's how wrestling works. We never do a tennis-style single elimination tournament, from the youth ranks up through college. Instead, we get everyone in one space and spend a day figuring out the pecking order. It would be silly to get a bunch of swimmers together, randomly draw them into 4 heats, and say each heat winner gets to advance. We're all together at the same pool--let's go ahead and have some prelims and finals and pick the genuine best 4. Wrestling is the same, but they need to be invited to see it outside the "upsets happen" narrative or even the "my star lost too early in the tournament" argument....in my very humble opinion.

Edited by maligned

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5 minutes ago, maligned said:

I even wonder sometimes if drawing them into "stars knocking off stars too early" isn't beating a dead horse. They have that in all of their other sports tournaments--which is what they insist on comparing us to.

I think instead there's an argument to be built that we're NOT being treated like other sports. All others sports have their tournaments conducted in the way states around the country conduct them and in the way their sport's culture dictates--except ours. We're the only ones forced to fit into a box that is completely disassociated from the rest of the season structure and the sport nationally.  

AND I think we can give examples of other individual sports that have similarities to ours that they don't realize; namely, track, swimming, and gymnastics. In those sports, at each tournament round, we have the best people all together in one space and we find the genuine best and advance them. That's how wrestling works. We never do a tennis-style single elimination tournament, from the youth ranks up through college. Instead, we get everyone in one space and spend a day figuring out the pecking order. It would be silly to get a bunch of swimmers together, randomly draw them into 4 heats, and say each heat winner gets to advance. We're all together at the same pool--let's go ahead and have some prelims and finals and pick the genuine best 4. Wrestling is the same, but they need to be invited to see it outside the "upsets happen" or even the "my star lost too early in the tournament" narrative....in my very humble opinion.

I can agree with this.

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3 hours ago, maligned said:

 We never do a tennis-style single elimination tournament, from the youth ranks up through college. Instead, we get everyone in one space and spend a day figuring out the pecking order. 

In tennis Indiana does a single elimination tournament.  The Indiana tennis tournament is more messed up than the wrestling.

My kid played in HS, so I followed this.  I know one year in the first round of the sectional,  the #1 player in the state from North Central played the #3 kid in the state from Hamilton Southeastern.  Hamilton Southeastern kid lost in a 3rd set tie breaker and was done.  That would be the equivalent of Brayton Lee wrestling Lucas Davison in the first round of sectionals with only person advancing (try to ignore the weight difference)   Again,  they don't have anything equivalent to wrestle backs in tennis, every other state has a system where multiple kids advance from the event with a 1,2,3,4 auto seed.

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How are semi state draws conducted?

 

does anyone have insight? Is it computer generated or does Bobby Cox personally do them? Faulkens?

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Wrestling Scholar,

One thing tennis does have going in multiple sets to determine the clear winner.  Similar to golf have multiple holes.  Yes a second opportunity against a different opponent would be useful for them too, but having more than one set is helpful in some ways that wrestling doesn’t have.   At least tennis got to hold onto their separate team tournament though it’s a little bit of a mixed up system too  

In a different comparison track/swimming advancing the best placements/time per heat so even if best guys end up in the same heat they both have a opportunity to advance.   In a way wrestling has that by advancing more than the top finisher, but in a different way track/swimming has something like wrestleback since it give some early race losers a chance to advance as well.  Gymnastics a similar situations of advancing the best overall competitors since it’s based on scores rather than head to head. 

 

I guess each individual sport has its good and bad aspect to it when it comes to advancing whoever truest competes the best that day. 

Edited by MattM

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17 minutes ago, navy80 said:

How are semi state draws conducted?

 

does anyone have insight? Is it computer generated or does Bobby Cox personally do them? Faulkens?

Well they say they randomly select the pattern that is followed from the possible variations.   Not sure who or what actually randomly makes the selection though. 

Edited by MattM

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