Jump to content

State Series Idea


GrecoCoach

Recommended Posts

I've been thinking of ways to improve our state series.  Things that allow full wrestlebacks without adding extra time.  Here are some changes that I came up with that could do that...

 

Sectionals

Same 32 locations, full wrestlebacks, change first round pigtails to avoid top seeds.

Top 3 advance to regionals

 

Regionals

8 locations, 4 sectionals feed into each one.  12-man bracket with sectional champs getting a 1st round bye (like old semistate brackets).  Full wrestlebacks from quarterfinals on.  (Those eliminated in first round lost once at sectionals and once at regionals, so still double elimination.) 

Total of 17 matches per weight class.  This makes regionals the longest step of the series, but for most schools, they are closer to their regional site than semistate.  Also, regional matches tend to finish faster than semistate matches, which will help the day end sooner.

Top 4 advance to semistate (wrestle the 5th place match for true alternate)

 

Semistate

Same 4 locations, 2 regionals feed into each one.  8-man bracket (set up like current regionals) with full wrestlebacks.  Less wrestlers qualify for semistate, but all get an equal chance to advance to state.  The day will be shorter, but that allows more travel time for teams that travel a long distance.

Top 4 advance to state (wrestle the 5th place match for true alternate)

 

State

No changes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i Like it with 8 man bracket you eliminate the upset but get to the closet top 4 per semi state 

at the state level I would like 2 changes

1. A committe to seed the champs 1-4 separating the top 2 guys instead of having that in the semis. 

2. Random starting point for the finals or choose the marquee match lee vs red or 126 this year. I dislike that half the statium leaves before these guys wrestle. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mike, I'd love those, but I don't see the IHSAA making either of those changes.  They love their random draws for brackets.  And even though the NFHS rules allow for showcase matches being last, the IHSAA doesn't think it's very sportsmanlike to admit that some matches are better than others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not a bad plan, but as opposed to pushing an idea that revamps the entire tournament structure, why not focus on fixing the semi state and state with minor changes?

It's difficult for me to imagine the IHSAA biting on this and it fails to address state placing which in my eyes is one of the two biggest problems the tourney faces.

Finally the consumers will stay if the product is compelling. The aren't walking out on the best match they are leaving when experience tells them the product doesn't warrant staying. The more hwts we develop with full skill sets (or even just expanded skills) the less we will have to play tricks with the starting weight to get the fans to watch. Chastising fans, without a critical eye on the product being delivered will only yield less fan interest, not more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Might also be because it is 9:00 or later when the 285s wrestle, and many of the fans have been in Indy all day...and many of them are not die-hard wrestling fans, they came to see "their guy/gal" wrestle under the lights. I feel fairly confident in predicting that a large number of people will leave before the end, regardless of which match is last...provided that match is chosen randomly, and not something like Lee v Red.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the idea of 8 man semi states but you're asking the IHSAA to eliminate half of the people (give or take) who would show up to a semi-state which means less revenue.

Maybe it evens out with more wrestlers (and probably more fans) at each regional. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Galagore said:

Might also be because it is 9:00 or later when the 285s wrestle, and many of the fans have been in Indy all day...and many of them are not die-hard wrestling fans, they came to see "their guy/gal" wrestle under the lights. I feel fairly confident in predicting that a large number of people will leave before the end, regardless of which match is last...provided that match is chosen randomly, and not something like Lee v Red.

That is an absolutely valid point, but i would counter that fans dont have an expectation of equal level of quality for that last match thus its easier for them to leave. If it was the 126, 160 or 170 final i bet more folks would find a reason to stay, and although great match ups those arent Red vs Lee.

Fans also understand that 220 and hwt have to lowest participation levels of all weights as it relates to off season practice and competition. This is reflected in the quality of the product on display, and fans know it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Westforkwhite said:

That is an absolutely valid point, but i would counter that fans dont have an expectation of equal level of quality for that last match thus its easier for them to leave. If it was the 126, 160 or 170 final i bet more folks would find a reason to stay, and although great match ups those arent Red vs Lee.

Fans also understand that 220 and hwt have to lowest participation levels of all weights as it relates to off season practice and competition. This is reflected in the quality of the product on display, and fans know it.

Folkstyle State last year
Junior 285 had 23 wrestlers, more than 100, 106, 113, and 120.
Cadet 285 had 17 wrestlers, more than 88, 94, and 100. 

I wouldn't want to let facts get in between you and your opinion though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, BClark said:

I like the idea of 8 man semi states but you're asking the IHSAA to eliminate half of the people (give or take) who would show up to a semi-state which means less revenue.

Maybe it evens out with more wrestlers (and probably more fans) at each regional. 

Yes, semistates would make less revenue.  But regionals would cost less with half the venues & officials.  Also, the IHSAA reimburses schools (a little) for semistate which would also save the IHSAA some money.  Overall, there wouldn't be much of a change for their finances.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Folkstyle State last year
Junior 285 had 23 wrestlers, more than 100, 106, 113, and 120.
Cadet 285 had 17 wrestlers, more than 88, 94, and 100. 

I wouldn't want to let facts get in between you and your opinion though.

Or let selective choosing of data get in the way of your opinion.

Folkstyle State 2017

SB 98 - 35

SB 105 - 35

SB 190-265 (3 weights) - 12

CA 100 - 14

CA 106 - 31

CA 113 - 34

CA 220 - 7

CA 285 - 17

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Westforkwhite said:

 

Fans also understand that 220 and hwt have to lowest participation levels of all weights as it relates to off season practice and competition. This is reflected in the quality of the product on display, and fans know it.

Did some heavyweight hurt you previously in life? I feel like half of your posts complain about heavyweight matches

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Thor said:

Did some heavyweight hurt you previously in life? I feel like half of your posts complain about heavyweight matches

No, and sorry i have taken a negative turn here. There are multiple big guys i think are exceptional wrestlers but i think the overall quality could be a lot better. I believe getting better starts with greater expectations and as long as we are willing to make excuses for the quality i dont see there being much that changes. I think Hwt wrestling can absolutely be great in this state, and i want us to get to a place where fans want to stay to see the hwts, and wouldnt dream of missing one minute of action. But thats not where were at. We can blame fans for their lack of interest or we can work to create interest and develop a more interesting product. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't go hard on Heavyweights (HWY and 220).   WestFork,  but yes you may see less participation in the offseason, but then again these guys are more likely to be multi-sport athletes as they they're ones playing football and throwing the shot put.  Yes,  Also they fall on the end  parabolic curve   where there's less people that weigh that much on average,  but then that's a bigger problem at 106 or 113.    Also, because these guys play football they hit the weights and are strong.   HWY doesn't need as many moves its all about positioning, so they don't need as much offseason.    Anyway,  its just a slower style doesn't mean there not as good.    The upper weights in Indiana have been some of the most successful at the National level.   Look at Streck and Fletcher and Woods on well they've done. See Mason Paris and Pokorney.   HWYs are a plus in Indiana.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All good points. I certainly agree bigger kids are in greater demand for other sports and consequently more big guys do play other sports. But the doesnt translate to greater wrestling skills it just means less mat time while you play that other sport. There is also no questioning the greatness of our elite bigs, they are superb. I just dont believe they are reflective of overall quality.

Sorry GrecoCoach for hijacking your thread. 

Edited by Westforkwhite
Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, Westforkwhite said:

No, and sorry i have taken a negative turn here. There are multiple big guys i think are exceptional wrestlers but i think the overall quality could be a lot better. I believe getting better starts with greater expectations and as long as we are willing to make excuses for the quality i dont see there being much that changes. I think Hwt wrestling can absolutely be great in this state, and i want us to get to a place where fans want to stay to see the hwts, and wouldnt dream of missing one minute of action. But thats not where were at. We can blame fans for their lack of interest or we can work to create interest and develop a more interesting product. 

We have some exceptional big guys right now. Parris 220 and 285 will be really good. I will use a example from this season at the harvest classic #1 Isaiah McWilliams was wrestling. So far undefeated wire to wire. A 2x semi finals and returning runner up. Accomplished he was competing against #1 in Illinois 2A at the time Myles Ruffin of brother rice again a state runner up. Both good athlete Ruffin went up early and McWilliams came back to win. A battle of #1’s returning runners up and a great match. 

What is sad half of the fans gone, all but 3 OW forms turned in before arguably the best match. Random draw maybe people still leave but maybe not  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ontherise219 said:

We have some exceptional big guys right now. Parris 220 and 285 will be really good. I will use a example from this season at the harvest classic #1 Isaiah McWilliams was wrestling. So far undefeated wire to wire. A 2x semi finals and returning runner up. Accomplished he was competing against #1 in Illinois 2A at the time Myles Ruffin of brother rice again a state runner up. Both good athlete Ruffin went up early and McWilliams came back to win. A battle of #1’s returning runners up and a great match. 

What is sad half of the fans gone, all but 3 OW forms turned in before arguably the best match. Random draw maybe people still leave but maybe not  

Pokorney and McWilliams are exceptional and outstanding wrestlers and Parris is otherworldly, but none of that speaks to depth. Ault is a guy ive been impressed by and others too, so i certainly recognize there is talent and quality wrestling at hwt. I just don't see it with regularity i see at mid and low weights particularly when you get below the SS qualifier level. 

To your last point, that is a shame. When two kids put forth that kind of effort and performance it deserves to be recognized, no matter when it happens or at what weight. So i cant really refute that aspect. I want our best kids to be celebrated regardless of weight class, and if random draw can help accomplish that with limited drawbacks i see value.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, GrecoCoach said:

Yes, semistates would make less revenue.  But regionals would cost less with half the venues & officials.  Also, the IHSAA reimburses schools (a little) for semistate which would also save the IHSAA some money.  Overall, there wouldn't be much of a change for their finances.

First of all, I love your plan.  There are only two concerns I can think of that may be negative.

1.  Would a smaller semi-state and less revenue give the IHSAA less reason to utilize a facility such as the Ford Center?  I'm not sure where the other semi-states are held, but I believe having it at the Ford Center and being the last step before Banker's Life makes the Evansville SS an event.  And an event that is building toward the crescendo of State.  Would it feel the same in your scenario, especially if it moves to say Evansville North or somewhere else.

2. Would you need bigger arenas for a larger regional like that?  How would the feel of the tournament change if you had a Regional at a facility like the Ford Center (would it even be available annually?) and then the SS back at Ev North or Castle?  Again, I don't know how the facilities are at the other SS's.  

Those may be minor in the grand scheme of things and I'm not sure how realistic it would be to get the IHSAA make the changes (me thinks not likely at  all), but I really do like how you offered a full plan.  Less negative domino effects possible than just making one or two changes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

SWINfan,

This could cause some venues to need to change.  The question that would go along with this plan is... Would you rather keep semistate at the Ford Center or have wrestlebacks?  3/4 of the state would rather have wrestlebacks.  It does open up the possibility of finding a more central location for the southern semistate, too.

I realize that this plan doesn't have much chance to happen.  I'm just thinking of ways that could make the tournament series better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, GrecoCoach said:

SWINfan,

This could cause some venues to need to change.  The question that would go along with this plan is... Would you rather keep semistate at the Ford Center or have wrestlebacks?  3/4 of the state would rather have wrestlebacks.  It does open up the possibility of finding a more central location for the southern semistate, too.

I realize that this plan doesn't have much chance to happen.  I'm just thinking of ways that could make the tournament series better.

You could also make semi-state a two day event with full wrestle backs and keep it at the Ford Center.  

Am I correct when I say the IHSAA doesn't like to have athletic events during school days which is proabably why this idea wouldn't work?      Im talking all sports.   My experience in other states, was it wasn't a big deal to miss a little school.  Never see that in Indiana.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

You could also make semi-state a two day event with full wrestle backs and keep it at the Ford Center.  

Am I correct when I say the IHSAA doesn't like to have athletic events during school days which is proabably why this idea wouldn't work?      Im talking all sports.   My experience in other states, was it wasn't a big deal to miss a little school.  Never see that in Indiana.

The only events that I know that might take away from some school day events are the spring sport state finals and some of the golf state series events. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We won't get wrestle backs ever at least in our lifetime 

I like the idea of sending 32 kids to state 

Wrestle the semi state like we do the state tournament currently 

Wrestle 1st round Friday night 8 mats. It's tight but possible 

1v8 2v7 3v6 4v5

Run tournament like it is ran now Saturday morn taking less of a break during that big one 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.