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Extra training Forbidden?


StevieWonder

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1 hour ago, RegionRoyalty said:

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but in a lot of instances, this is exactly the opposite of what is true.  The high school coach is with the athlete from November to February for his 4 years of high school.  The Academy coach has been with that athlete year-round since he was 6 or 7 years old.

Shhhhh you are going to hurt some coaches feelings ;)

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1 hour ago, RegionRoyalty said:

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but in a lot of instances, this is exactly the opposite of what is true.  The high school coach is with the athlete from November to February for his 4 years of high school.  The Academy coach has been with that athlete year-round since he was 6 or 7 years old.

Ill piggy back on this.   The high school coach is a teacher and  coaching is a part time job.  If somebody is running an academy, he's doing this professionally,  and is good enough to make a living at it.  So the academy guy is a professional.  Ill take a professional over a part time guy.   From what I can tell,  the really stacked teams in the state are located close to a great wrestling academy or have a great club.  These academy's provide the ammunition for the good teams to reload.

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1 hour ago, RegionRoyalty said:

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but in a lot of instances, this is exactly the opposite of what is true.  The high school coach is with the athlete from November to February for his 4 years of high school.  The Academy coach has been with that athlete year-round since he was 6 or 7 years old.

 

4 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Ill piggy back on this.   The high school coach is a teacher and  coaching is a part time job.  If somebody is running an academy, he's doing this professionally,  and is good enough to make a living at it.  So the academy guy is a professional.  Ill take a professional over a part time guy.   From what I can tell,  the really stacked teams in the state are located close to a great wrestling academy or have a great club.  These academy's provide the ammunition for the good teams to reload.

    Reading these comments I realize what a unique situation I personally get to benefit from.  Our coaches are far from part time (only in pay) because they are the club coaches also. I sometimes forget that the majority of wrestling programs are to your point part time or in season only. This season for our coaches started in October and will go until June. So the majority of our wrestlers will have that Coach since he started at 4 or 5 years old all the way through his High School career. 

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3 minutes ago, V and M's Dad said:

 

    Reading these comments I realize what a unique situation I personally get to benefit from.  Our coaches are far from part time (only in pay) because they are the club coaches also. I sometimes forget that the majority of wrestling programs are to your point part time or in season only. This season for our coaches started in October and will go until June. So the majority of our wrestlers will have that Coach since he started at 4 or 5 years old all the way through his High School career. 

There are numerous strong programs like this in the state with in-program club feeder systems. In those situations, it makes complete sense why the coach would expect to have some input or control over the off-season training of their athletes. The generalizations being made in this post of high school coaches as "part-time" and academy coaches as "professionals" are disappointing. Indiana is blessed with many high school coaches who are "good enough to make a living" at coaching and still choose to coach high school and club programs over starting or working for academies. Moreover, many of these same coaches do continue to dedicate themselves to their wrestlers (all their wrestlers, not just the ones who can afford the costs of a private academy) year-round by training and taking kids to off-season tournaments for much less than the academy coaches are earning.

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This is from coach Tonte:

I don’t have an account, but this is something I wanted to make sure I said something about.  I have many friends that run academies and don’t think any of them would consider guys like us as part time coaches.  We and countless other coaches running successful programs do not consider ourselves to be part timers.

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100% true.  I would not count Perry, Warren, Portage, Chesterton, Brownsburg, Avon, Mater Dei, etc. among the part-time coaches.  You see their coaches at all the ISWA and Youth events all year round.

Sadly, however, these guys are more the exception than the norm.  And it is no surprise that they are the ones who have the successful programs.  That's the point I'm trying to make.  For kids who aren't fortunate enough to have a coach who puts in this level of time and effort year round, their Academy coach probably has spent more time with them and knows them better.  The above schools and a handful of others would be the exception.  

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22 minutes ago, mikemorgan said:

This is from coach Tonte:

I don’t have an account, but this is something I wanted to make sure I said something about.  I have many friends that run academies and don’t think any of them would consider guys like us as part time coaches.  We and countless other coaches running successful programs do not consider ourselves to be part timers.

Please inform coach Tonte that in my post I mentioned academies and great wrestling clubs create the elite teams.  You guys left that out.     To clarify,  Im referring also to the elite programs where the wrestling coach in many cases runs the wrestling club and as a result works most the year.   Im well aware of the year round effort that Tonte has put in Warren and Perry,  and his results speak volumes for him.  No way that im calling him a part-timer.    Coaches like Tonte, Snyder, Vega, Pendoski, Harper, etc run their clubs/programs, are high school coaches and are elite academy coaches at the same time.   

  I think the only difference between club and academy is maybe the club sometimes doesn't allow kids from another school.  But I know a lot of kids would like to be in these coaches clubs.    Im curious,  does coach Tonte's Warren club allow kids from other school district?  Im just saying with his knowledge, a lot of dads would be paying good money to get into his club or academy? 

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1 hour ago, mikemorgan said:

This is from coach Tonte:

I don’t have an account, but this is something I wanted to make sure I said something about.  I have many friends that run academies and don’t think any of them would consider guys like us as part time coaches.  We and countless other coaches running successful programs do not consider ourselves to be part timers.

It's coaches like tonte that work so diligent to get his team's ready that it keeps academies open because 99% of athlete's don't have that kind of guidance and leadership so they have to close that gap any way they can and that goes fora lot of kids that aren't from power house programs per say...It's the high level teams in our state that raise the bar for the rest of state and it keeps both rtc coaches may or may not affiliated to a program in business...I appreciate any person that contributes in any facet to our sport..idc if you just keep score , are the team mom that looks after kids or a HOF caliber coach... It takes a village to raise a child and it's always easier to raise strong children than it is to fix broken Men! 

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4 hours ago, Numchuck Skills said:

 

"I made it to sectionals, so I know what I am talking about. "

 

 

We have someone on here with this level of experience, yet we don't listen to him.  Shame on us as coaches to not use the resources put in front of us!  I know several people of this caliber that can coach "Git eem" from the bleachers and they are all but ignored! Keep up up the good work Numchuck Skills!

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Let's be real with ourselves here, Coach Tonte and the other highly successful teacher/coaches are the exception, not the rule. I keep thinking of all the non-powerhouse schools that produced state champs. I'm almost certain that those kids who ended up being state champs at their mediocre program had stellar off-season/academy coaching which helped catapult them to success. I think it could go either way.

Think of it this way; a kid who has Michael Jordan as their coach will have no need to go to anyone else for coaching, since you have the BEST at hand. BUT those who don't have Michael Jordan as their coach have to go elsewhere to get better. 

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You can't forget that most IHSAA rules are put in place to be applied across multiple sports, and like it or not in Indiana basketball is king.  I have not of anyone setting up a high school for wrestlers yet or tempting our top talent to go to a wrestling school that has the system in place to let kids get a high school diploma while they work at their sport with the top AAU kids from the country.

There is a kid down here who is one of the top recruits in the country and there is fear every year he will be coaxed away from the high school to go to a basketball academy.

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On 1/5/2018 at 3:27 PM, ILUV2PIN said:

Think of it this way; a kid who has Michael Jordan as their coach will have no need to go to anyone else for coaching, since you have the BEST at hand. BUT those who don't have Michael Jordan as their coach have to go elsewhere to get better. 

I think you meant Jeff Jordan.

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This is a great topic.  There are good points all the way around. For most the bottom line is not many coaches have the time to dedicate every weekend to wrestling for 8 to 10 months out of the year, run practices throughout the week, go to camps, and travel to Florida for Disney duals. The ones that do I am not sure where these coaches found their wives, or find time for their own kids, or if they even have wives and kids.  That is why most need coaches at all levels in a program which is extremely difficult to find.  We all can't be Carroll and have 20 coaches with Hall of Fame coaches moving into the district for fun.  I will agree with Joe it is better for coaches to be teachers.  "Only" because their schedules match up, they can cherry pick kids that they have built relationships with, and they can keep a finger on the kids while they are at school.  With that said I know an absolute ton of lay coaches that are incredible.

I am also a fan of the youth coach being involved with the athlete all the way through the program.  It helps with retention and I think overall it is great for the program.  I also believe the head coach of the High School is the head of the program and if he doesn't agree or get along with the youth program coach than the youth coach needs to go, unfortunately, if either coach plans on being there long term.

If the head coach of the High School doesn't agree with the coach giving private lessons or the Academy his wrestler wants to go to that is a major issue and one that can be difficult.  If they don't agree with each other do you think they are going coach the same technique? Or speak highly of what each coach is doing?  The answer is no and then you start inserting doubt into the wrestler about what they should be doing and that is a cancer for the kid and the program. Hence the problem that can arise from wrestlers getting coached outside the room.  Don't get me wrong I am a huge fan of it and I think it is necessary but during season not so much unless the head coach is on the same page as the Club or Academy coach.  I get the fact as a parent you may not like your coach or agree with the way they coach and you are looking elsewhere for help but many times it only makes it worse.  I also get that not all High School coaches are created equal.

On to the over training issues.  I have seen this so many times over the last 20 something years.  A kid trains all of season and summer and doesn't take any time off and at the beginning of season is destroying everyone one and then come tournament time things don't look so good for him.  You take any sport, even ones that are much less taxing, and look at what it takes to peak at the right time you will see there is always downtime in that equation.  The goal of the High School coach should be to peak at that right time and the other coaches may not be aware of this goal or the schedule that has been put in place.

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On 1/5/2018 at 3:27 PM, ILUV2PIN said:

Think of it this way; a kid who has Michael Jordan as their coach will have no need to go to anyone else for coaching, since you have the BEST at hand. BUT those who don't have Michael Jordan as their coach have to go elsewhere to get better. 

Are we sure Michael Jordan would've been a good coach? I'm probably taking this out of context, but just because you were a great wrestler doesn't mean you will automatically be a good coach. Just because you weren't a top-level wrestler, doesn't mean you won't be a top-level coach.  

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