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Dodging matchups


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This is not to point out or criticize anyone just a thought and some feedback. Are people more worried about rankings, records etc than they are getting quality matchups. I understand moving people around for the team but I’m hearing so much about not wanting a loss etc. I love the fact our coaches don’t care who the opponent is, how you should dream about getting a crack at the 52-0 kid. I know my kid is so jacked about dreaming of getting to wrestle the number 1 kid in the country. Is Graham on Braydon Lees level....? Of course not. But the fact it makes him dream and work etc makes him better (by the way Brayton  is a great wrestler but even better kid). My point or question is what value does it do a wrestler to dodge a great kid? Many has to,d us were dumb for going 52. We look at it in a whole different way. I love when I see wrestlers and coaches wanting to wrestle the best. Our head coach ( Bob Read) has always said you need to dream of wrestl8ng the 52-0 kids. I think we’re putting too much on win loss records. That will take care of themselves when your wrestling better kids

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Completely agree. 

 

When the tide goes out- you can see who has been skinny dipping. 

 

Im a big believer in strength of schedules in any sport. Take Linton football for example, they beat up on weak 1A teams for years but could never win semi state. They finally dropped out of their conference and beefed up their schedule. And won State, finished runner up, and this year, two of their losses were to a state champ team and a runner up team. 

 

#ironsharpensiron

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In my opinion for a kid that has a chance of being a placer and maybe even a shot at the finals getting that goose egg off his record can do more good than bad.  I have seen it just eat kids up and it is hard to mentally prepare them for big matches because they are wrestling not to lose. I can't count how many times I have dealt with this and I hate it.  Now there are the Brayton and Redd's that don't have this issue because they get out of our small mud hole and wrestle at the national level.

 

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The tougher the competition, the better.  I agree, wrestlers and coaches should seek the best competition for their kids. Undefeated is overrated.   Look at the teams with the toughest schedules have the best results around state time.  That's not a coincidence. And as aoberlin mentioned,  there are a lot of opportunities to wrestle big matches in the offseason.  The investment in time and money normally pays off with results.

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1 hour ago, TripleB said:

All of these are excellent reasons for not converting to class wrestling. Beautiful.

LOL, but...  Classing the State Tournament does NOT mean that the whole season would be classed.  (Like Navy80's football example).

It also argues for the ability to travel out of state...

 

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What if classing the tournament included the ability for teams to enter up to two wrestlers per weight? Would that change anyone's mind on classing the tournament? From the perspective of a non-classer, would that positive out weigh the negative enough for you to be pro-class?

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14 minutes ago, Caleb Spires said:

No no no no NO NO NO

 

We are not going to turn another unrelated topic into a classed wrestling debate.

Not a debate. Just a question. If the answer is no, then I have no intention on trying to sway opinion. Just wondering where the opinion is.

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2 minutes ago, TripleB said:

If you want the best competition.... It's simple......Keep it Classless....

Are you arguing that classing the state tournament would somehow diminish the regular season matches more than they already are. Couldn't a smaller school schedule big schools during the regular season even though they won't compete come state finals? Ohio does this all the time. You think St. Paris Graham just sends kids to wrestle the small schools? They send them out to get the best competition. Class wrestling has nothing to do with this topic at all.

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Hi-Jack continued... Not being an Indiana native, I find the ferocity of this debate about class wrestling almost comical. 

However, since this thread is essentially about being competitive I looked up the following article on FLOW: https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/5065531-which-state-is-the-best-at-producing-ncaa-all-americans- 

It looks at the states who are best at producing NCAA All-Americans.  I don't see Indiana on the list of the top 20.  I see lots of states with multi-class state tournaments in this list.  So is our 1 class system actually helping? 

Here's another list (not quite as recent, but NOT adjusted for state population). http://mwolverine.com/Top_Wrestling_States.html

Indiana comes in at #18 here, but still behind many multi-class states.

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Holy crap Galagore!  How can you possibly turn every topic into class wrestling.  Start your own class wrestling thread and spout away dude, but for the love of God, please stop bringing it up in other threads so the rest of us don't have to see it anymore.  It is a tired, very old debate that has been discussed thoroughly over the past 30 years!  I think we have covered it!   As far as the topic we were really talking about, the only time a coach might not want his wrestler to face a 50-0 wrestler, is if he is a beginner and would learn nothing and get turned off of the sport before he had a chance to get some good experience at levels closer to his ability.  I agree in general, that you learn more from a loss than you do from a victory, but there's not a lot to learn when you get pinned in 12 seconds, or teched in a minute.  Just my thoughts.

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8 hours ago, Jim calhoun said:

This is not to point out or criticize anyone just a thought and some feedback. Are people more worried about rankings, records etc than they are getting quality matchups. I understand moving people around for the team but I’m hearing so much about not wanting a loss etc. I love the fact our coaches don’t care who the opponent is, how you should dream about getting a crack at the 52-0 kid. I know my kid is so jacked about dreaming of getting to wrestle the number 1 kid in the country. Is Graham on Braydon Lees level....? Of course not. But the fact it makes him dream and work etc makes him better (by the way Brayton  is a great wrestler but even better kid). My point or question is what value does it do a wrestler to dodge a great kid? Many has to,d us were dumb for going 52. We look at it in a whole different way. I love when I see wrestlers and coaches wanting to wrestle the best. Our head coach ( Bob Read) has always said you need to dream of wrestl8ng the 52-0 kids. I think we’re putting too much on win loss records. That will take care of themselves when your wrestling better kids

Back to topic...agree.  If a wrestler (or his coaches) are more concerned with win/loss record and/or ranking I believe it will undermine the achievement of goals.  Now to be totally objective...not everyone has the same goals.  For some it may be to qualify for Semi State, punch a ticket at State, place at State.  A great win/loss record or high ranking will still not help you achieve those goals.  If a wrestler's goal is to wrestle under the lights, the best way to achieve that is to have first hand knowledge of the other 15 guys in the state bracket!  It is rare to go undefeated, and  those that have ended their season without blemish, are the least likely to have ever "dodged" a match up to get there.  "Best way to make a name for yourself...is by taking someone else's name away"  aka  "if you want to be the best, you have to beat the best".  Great example is Jacob LaPlace-Mishawaka 138# who placed 4th at State as a freshman. Jacob had 13 losses on his record going into State.  The reason that Jacob placed that high as a freshman WAS the 13 losses.  That is what prepared him to reach his goal. And I've never heard anyone stick an asterisk next to that accomplishment with a note that says....yeah but he had 13 losses.  Is there a wrestler out there that will not admit that they have learned more from a tough loss than from an easy win?  From a fans standpoint, we respect a wrestler that steps up for a challenge...win or lose.

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I'm back on topic....

I was coaching back before the 'Super dual' format etc....  In Colorado we used to be at 'individual tournaments' every weekend and dual meets with our conference during the week.  The 'Super Dual' and subsequent varieties have been great for getting more matches (nobody going 2 and out anymore).  However, they have created a coaching dilemma: Do I put out the line-up that gives each individual the best experience?  Or Do I put out the line-up that gives the TEAM the best chance to win?  Sometimes this means trading off pins....  Just wondering what folks think about this vs. true "dodging to protect a record".

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I just want my kid to wrestle..... anyone. 

Season starts at my house tomorrow!!!

But The Calhoun’s do walk the walk. Been on many many trips with them and Graham has always taken on the studs! He’s battled tested! 

Edited by Mattyb
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43 minutes ago, MOWrestler said:

I'm back on topic....

I was coaching back before the 'Super dual' format etc....  In Colorado we used to be at 'individual tournaments' every weekend and dual meets with our conference during the week.  The 'Super Dual' and subsequent varieties have been great for getting more matches (nobody going 2 and out anymore).  However, they have created a coaching dilemma: Do I put out the line-up that gives each individual the best experience?  Or Do I put out the line-up that gives the TEAM the best chance to win?  Sometimes this means trading off pins....  Just wondering what folks think about this vs. true "dodging to protect a record".

Since Graham Calhoun is the original example, if you were wrestling Plymouth and had a pretty good kid, possibly ranked at 152, everyone would expect to see that match.  If for some reason your kid did not wrestle that particular dual or was bumped up to wrestle 160 (for the good of the team) it may be perceived as a dodge?  Again being impartial to both sides of the argument....if you bump your kid to 160 and win (or lose) the dual by six or less...justified coaching move.

 

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