The Scholastic Duals - some history of Indiana and why we are where we are.

[samaj]

I thought I would write some history on the Scholastic Duals, the IHSWCA involvement, and the Renegades..  I will try to keep this short, but doubt it ends up that way.

 

First - Who am I?  My name is Jeff Schaefer.  I own E.I. Sports and Apparel in Evansville, I am an assistant coach at Evansville Memorial, I am the team gear provider and sponsor for the IHSWCA Scholastic teams (I provide the team gear for the IHSWCA Gold and Blue teams at my cost each year which provides them top quality gear at a greatly reduced cost), I am the coordinator of the Renegades teams and I helped promote, plan, fill spots, and coached with the IHSWCA Scholastic Duals teams for 10-12 years.  So basically, I know a lot of the inside story on a lot of the questions and issues that are happening right now.

 

The IHSWCA - The coaches association has been sponsoring two teams at this event for many years.  My first year was in 2003 and at that time they had been involved for several years already.  At the time I joined the fray in 2003 the event was at Delaware Univ. but it went to Delaware State for a couple of years, then to York College in PA, and maybe one other location before being moved to Indiana and Wabash College.  Back when I started helping, the IHSWCA had trouble filling the team with our top notch kids.  We got some blue chippers but it was a struggle.  Many of our best programs and coaches simply would not buy in and commit to this event.  Over the next few years we made a significant push to educate the coaches and programs in the state and recruit the very best kids by talking about the event, talking to coaches earlier, and just working harder to be better prepared.  

 

The results were great.  We got better kids each year and for a few years we had teams that were truly powerhouses at a very prestigious event.  We had some great showings out on the East coast, including a runner up finish one year.

 

The Renegades - (who are they and why?)-  The early days, the Blue team would almost always be hard to fill and the coaches who put time into the event would be able to place a wrestler on the Blue team and travel with that wrestler as a coach to a national event on the East coast.  It was a great deal!  However, as the IHSWCA started getting the better kids, the spots on the Blue team became filled with those same upper echelon kids as were on the Gold team.  This pushed the "coaches kids" out of the picture since they were no longer needed to fill spots on the Blue team.

 

The coaches who put the Blue and Gold teams together for this event had an idea to create a 3rd Indiana team (the White Team) and fill it with coaches kids.  This team would get destroyed in the competition but it would give the coaches a small perk for traveling to the East Coast for 4 days on a charter bus etc etc.  The Idea of the White team was nixed by an IHSWCA president who did not want to show favortism to a group of coaches and was worried that the White team not having a "qualifying system" would cause issues.

 

At that time, I stepped down from helping the IHSWCA teams and approached the Scholastic Duals tournament director about putting a team of Indiana Renegades into the event.  The tournament director needed a few teams to fill out the tournament brackets and allowed us to put a team together.  The only stipulation was that we would not try to take any of the wrestlers that have qualified for the IHSWCA teams and we have always lived by that.  To us, there is not even a question of if we should do that or not, because to those of us that do this, we have always felt like the Renegades are an extension of the IHSWCA teams.  The Renegades have been putting teams into this event ever since then, and we work very closely with the IHSWCA to not approach or try to take the same wrestlers that our IHSWCA teams need to put the best possible Indiana teams on the mat.

 

 

A "National" Championship??? - This is where many of the problems that we are seeing stem from.  In 2003 - 2010, this event truly was a National Event.  When we went to Deleware, there would be 18-22 teams of hammers.  2 teams from PA, NY, NJ, DE, VA, IN, NE, IL, and OH, plus single teams from  Florida, Colorado, and Michigan.  When PA and NJ went at it, it was awesome to watch and it was not for women and children!!  BUT....then the event moved to Indiana.  Since then, the east coast powerhouses have decided to stop coming.  Is it fair after all the years we all went out there?  no its not, but what can you do about it?  

 

The tournament leadership has tried (save for another discussion) but has had little luck on bringing the powerhouses back into the picture.  Instead, we now have IN, IL, Colorado, KY, and some other teams.  The event is still very tough but is NOT what it once was.  When it was on the east coast, Mike Moyer and Jeff Peanut Bower with the NWCA were at the event and Jason Bryant was involved and covered it.  Today, the NWCA has its name on the event but I do not know if they actually have anything to do with the event at all.  To the old school coaches who have been involved in this event forever, yes we like to call it a national championship, but the reality is that while it is called a national championship, it is not a national championship caliber event because we know there is a LOT of fire power not attending.

 

So whats the problem and how do we fix it?  The Scholastic Duals needs teams every year.  They need teams to fill brackets and pay the entry fees to cover expenses and make sure the tournament happens.  National Event, regional event, whatever you want to call it, we would all call it a huge loss if it suddenly no longer happened.  As a coach who saw this event back in the hayday, I would like nothing more than to see PA, NJ, NY, VA, etc etc show up with teams and give all of us the greatest HS Wrestling show this side of our State Finals every April.  In a perfect world, this would happen and there would be no need for the Renegades or the Gorillas and I would support that decision 100% while sitting in the front row of beachers watching our states best compete as one team.

 

Back to the Renegades -  Because the event needs teams, the Renegades are allowed in.  We don't rock the boat and we pull on the same end of the rope as the IHSWCA so we are welcomed each year.  We are allowed to bring 3 teams and the teams are put together by a group of coaches in the Northern, the Central and the Southwestern portions of the state.  Our Teams allow 42 wrestlers the chance to get 7-8 dual meets matches versus some of the best wrestlers in the midwest in a tournament that cannot be replicated anywhere else.  Our teams purposely do not approach wrestlers who may end up on the Gold and Blue teams, and in fact, our teams got pilfered for approx 8 wrestlers at the last minute last year to fill spots on the IHSWCA Teams which caused us to scramble to fill spots at the midnight hour.

 

It has become increasingly harder to fill the Renegade teams each year.  The coaches know about us, and we get emails every year from many coaches who want to get 3 or 4 wrestlers onto our teams.  Our teams have evolved enough that we don't want 3-4 guys from any one team and we like to spread the wealth and have a nice mix of teams represented. (Full Transparency - the SW Renegades team is the original team and we usually pull from the Castle Regional first where we can before going out to other areas...this is also why we usually finish lower than the other Renegade teams) We try our best to get state qualifiers first then work down to the semi state level kids.  All in all, we have given MANY guys who were knocking on the door a chance to improve by participating in this event.  

 

The Gorillas - I will not state my opinion of Joe and the Gorillas.  In all honesty, I like to stay out of all of that mess and have done so the last couple of years.  What I will say, is that Joe's picture of what this tournament is and what some of the old timers picture of what this tournament is are two totally different things.  To Joe, this is NOT a National Championship so its comical to him that some people see it that way.  To the Tournament Director, and in the event entry paperwork, this event is indeed thought of as a National Championship and they have put many years of work and effort into seeing it happen each year.  The entry info suggests that teams are made of wrestlers from the same state, and that each state has a qualifying process.  This was the case back in the day....not so much anymore.  These two different ways of thinking have made it a difficult situation.

 

If the event was full of state teams from all over, like it was back in the old days, this would not be an issue, because there would only be the 2 original IHSWCA teams and we would have two REALLY good teams that we could all root for.

 

So basically....blame all of this nonsense on PA and the other East Coast teams who wont do what we did for years, travel and compete.

 

[ontherise219]

Very good post as always I enjoy your insight.

[warsawwrestling]

We had the pleasure of wrestling on Renegade North for the last 2 years. I agree the competition isn't of the highest quality, but there are nationally ranked kids that wrestle there, along with state placers and state champs. I would think from a tournament running stand point you would want to have as even as team as possible to build excitement and encourage repeat returning to event. Now, on the state side of things I would say beat the crap out of all the teams! But this would not make me want to return if I was beat this bad, mostly if I traveled long distances.

 

No disrespect but this, to me, feels more like a politics thing than a wrestling situation. If you have kids that will not compete if they aren't on a team or with friends than you are losing them anyway. There was a big survey done a few years back on baseball kids (10-14 years old) that questioned them if they would rather play with friends and lose or play on a team of kids they didn't know and win! They picked friends and lose like 85% over winning. Something about that fun thing that makes kids want to do it more and be more successful.

[Y2CJ41]

 

No disrespect but this, to me, feels more like a politics thing than a wrestling situation. If you have kids that will not compete if they aren't on a team or with friends than you are losing them anyway. There was a big survey done a few years back on baseball kids (10-14 years old) that questioned them if they would rather play with friends and lose or play on a team of kids they didn't know and win! They picked friends and lose like 85% over winning. Something about that fun thing that makes kids want to do it more and be more successful.

Things that make you go hmmmm.

[Sydokun]

I totally understand this post but it also leaves me to wonder. What about kids like mine that make gold but do not want to make the cut again to the wieght they want. So because he made gold/blue but wants to go up a wieght he is not aloud to wrestle at this event. No one would be allowed to pick him up. He would do well regardless and the event would gain not only him but someone on gold/blue. Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong but I really feel like the only ones that suffer are the kids. We will find other tournaments but this whole situation is a shame.

 

Good luck to all the kids going we wish you the best.

[navy80]

I can honestly see both sides of the argument.

 

1. Was it ever made clear to y2 the first time he brought the gorillas that he could not have anyone from the blue/gold teams?

 

2. Has the situation ever happened before where a wrestler previously was on the renegades and the next year he made blue/gold? What happened? What do you do if the wrestler doesn't want to make weight?

[Y2CJ41]

Nothing was said to me the first year(2013) when Connor Knapp was on my team after finishing 3rd, he would have been on the Blue team

 

Again 2014 Connor Knapp was on the team...and nothing said to me, same with Jeremiah Reitz after he won state. Reitz was up a weight though.

 

In 2015 nothing was said to me about Tylor Triana, Blake Glogouski, Steven Lawrence, or Nathan Walton. All would have at least been on the Blue team.

 

In 2016 we had Mulkey, Black, Brayton Lee, and Nathan Walton who would have been gold. Walton was up to 182, so supposedly he was cleared. Mulkey and Lee wanted to be on the team with Walton, McCormick, and Mills(injury prevented him from wrestling).

Note that in 2016 Andrew Davison was Gold team at 195 after wrestling 182 during the season and his brother was on the Blue team as a semi-state qualifier. I know for a fact at at least one of the six underclass state qualifiers wrestled for a Renegade team. Obviously they were fine choices, but something weird happened there.

 

This year...I know guys like Curtis, Mulkey, Brayton Lee, Noah Warren, and Nathan Walton were wanting to wrestle. Curtis up a weight and Mulkey, Walton and Warren would have been Blue if the IHSWCA did a decent job recruiting.

[samaj]

In the past, for the IHSWCA teams, it was always a rule that you wrestle the weight class that you qualify at. I know that many wrestlers over the years have turned down spots for not wanting to cut weight again. If they did not do that it opened the door up to way to many grey areas and deserving kids within the weight they competed at get left out.

 

I also know that the IHSWCA teams have had many kids drop out on them at the last minute and have had to scramble to find a replacement at the last minute. That could explain some of the movement.

 

As far as the Renegades go, we have free reign to do as we want so we will occasionally allow a wrestler to move if we can put a state qualifier on the team etc etc.

 

I think everyone tries to work the list in the order of finish but it's gets late and eventually you have to find a guy to fill the spot. Coaches and parents really string us along sometimes only to say no eventually. The Renegades have put a 5 day limit on our invites. We have paperwork and payment within 5 days of your invite or we move to next name on the list.

[navy80]

Nothing was said to me the first year(2013) when Connor Knapp was on my team after finishing 3rd, he would have been on the Blue team

 

Again 2014 Connor Knapp was on the team...and nothing said to me, same with Jeremiah Reitz after he won state. Reitz was up a weight though.

 

In 2015 nothing was said to me about Tylor Triana, Blake Glogouski, Steven Lawrence, or Nathan Walton. All would have at least been on the Blue team.

 

In 2016 we had Mulkey, Black, Brayton Lee, and Nathan Walton who would have been gold. Walton was up to 182, so supposedly he was cleared. Mulkey and Lee wanted to be on the team with Walton, McCormick, and Mills(injury prevented him from wrestling).

Note that in 2016 Andrew Davison was Gold team at 195 after wrestling 182 during the season and his brother was on the Blue team as a semi-state qualifier. I know for a fact at at least one of the six underclass state qualifiers wrestled for a Renegade team. Obviously they were fine choices, but something weird happened there.

 

This year...I know guys like Curtis, Mulkey, Brayton Lee, Noah Warren, and Nathan Walton were wanting to wrestle. Curtis up a weight and Mulkey, Walton and Warren would have been Blue if the IHSWCA did a decent job recruiting.

This clears it up for me better...I would rule in y2's favor.

 

Davison was allowed to wrestle up and his brother was a semi state qualifier and was picked for blue, It seems blue/gold opened the door for other nefarious activity when picking and choosing who makes the team.

Edited March 10, 2017 by navy80

[Chris Cooper]

Nothing was said to me the first year(2013) when Connor Knapp was on my team after finishing 3rd, he would have been on the Blue team

 

Again 2014 Connor Knapp was on the team...and nothing said to me, same with Jeremiah Reitz after he won state. Reitz was up a weight though.

 

In 2015 nothing was said to me about Tylor Triana, Blake Glogouski, Steven Lawrence, or Nathan Walton. All would have at least been on the Blue team.

 

In 2016 we had Mulkey, Black, Brayton Lee, and Nathan Walton who would have been gold. Walton was up to 182, so supposedly he was cleared. Mulkey and Lee wanted to be on the team with Walton, McCormick, and Mills(injury prevented him from wrestling).

Note that in 2016 Andrew Davison was Gold team at 195 after wrestling 182 during the season and his brother was on the Blue team as a semi-state qualifier. I know for a fact at at least one of the six underclass state qualifiers wrestled for a Renegade team. Obviously they were fine choices, but something weird happened there.

 

This year...I know guys like Curtis, Mulkey, Brayton Lee, Noah Warren, and Nathan Walton were wanting to wrestle. Curtis up a weight and Mulkey, Walton and Warren would have been Blue if the IHSWCA did a decent job recruiting.

 

Joe, I'm not going to argue this point, but I have been been told multiple times that you were asked not to use gold/blue eligible kids for the gorillas team.

[Fabio Jr.]

I will say the one gold kid they would have got this year Brayton was not going to wrestle on the gold team he chooses to because he wants to hang with his teammates and surprisingly his below average coach....so now you have taken 5-wrestlers away from a chance to compete in the off season at a pretty good tournament.

[MattM]

I will say the one gold kid they would have got this year Brayton was not going to wrestle on the gold team he chooses to because he wants to hang with his teammates and surprisingly his below average coach....so now you have taken 5-wrestlers away from a chance to compete in the off season at a pretty good tournament.

I'm not sure you can say they are taking the chance to compete in this tournament away from Brayton. If he, or anyone else, was offered a chance to be on the team and choose not to take it due to his personal feeling (wanting to be with teammates in this case) then he is taking the opportunity away from himself.  Or for that matter if the wrestler was given the impression by someone that they shouldn't take the opportunity for some reason.  As a coach I would try to encourage him, or anyone else, to take advantage of the opportunity if it would help the wrestlers in some way.  But, in the end it would still be up the person that put themselves in a position to be offered the spot in the first place.

 

Sure, the other 4-wrestlers you cite maybe a different story if they are not being given a chance. That could be something worth addressing, depending on what they want this event to actually be.  

Edited March 10, 2017 by MattM

[Y2CJ41]

Some people like to be able to make their own decisions. Just like Brayton shunned Brownsburg at Disney and is instead going with Carroll because of the gear and we stay at a fancy resort.

[Wrestling Scholar]

Some people like to be able to make their own decisions. Just like Brayton shunned Brownsburg at Disney and is instead going with Carroll because of the gear and we stay at a fancy resort.

You do have to admit the Team Gorilla colors do look better than "Brownsburg purple".   Not that is what affected his decision.

[vito pepperelli]

Some people like to be able to make their own decisions. Just like Brayton shunned Brownsburg at Disney and is instead going with Carroll because of the gear and we stay at a fancy resort.

 

How ironic.  Because all I've read through multiple posts is adults expressing the supposed opinions of the kids.  When one group back stabs the other and vice versa, how do you expect kids to respond? 

 

This whole affair has become an ego trip for the adults.  

[Y2CJ41]

Amazingly vito and sportsfangms have the same opinion and are at the same IP address.

[sportsfangms]

Amazingly we work in the same building, perhaps you're not as smart as you think you are, which you've proven to be the case over the past week. I've met and talked to several members on this board and they have met Vito as well, so they can provide you with any proof you need that we are not the same person, but way to deflect when you are dealing with people who are smarter than you and can have an educated debate, unlike most of the people you like to pick on. Go ahead, take your ball and run away and pick on the small kids that are no threat to you. 

[Y2CJ41]

Amazingly we work in the same building, perhaps you're not as smart as you think you are, which you've proven to be the case over the past week. I've met and talked to several members on this board and they have met Vito as well, so they can provide you with any proof you need that we are not the same person, but way to deflect when you are dealing with people who are smarter than you and can have an educated debate, unlike most of the people you like to pick on. Go ahead, take your ball and run away and pick on the small kids that are no threat to you. 

Right on cue...

 

I didn't take my ball anywhere.

 

You can thank me later for getting the price of the Scholastic Duals dropped by at least $100 and the kids getting better gear. Instead of this being a money grab for the IHSWCA it has become and affordable event. Amazingly this all happened within the past four years.

[ontherise219]

Amazingly we work in the same building, perhaps you're not as smart as you think you are, which you've proven to be the case over the past week. I've met and talked to several members on this board and they have met Vito as well, so they can provide you with any proof you need that we are not the same person, but way to deflect when you are dealing with people who are smarter than you and can have an educated debate, unlike most of the people you like to pick on. Go ahead, take your ball and run away and pick on the small kids that are no threat to you.

Same opinion same ip even at late posts but hey I believe you man

[sportsfangms]

You're playing in the end of the pool you don't belong here, trust me, one only needs to look at your clear lack of understanding of the English language to prove this, just keep your mouth closed before I take that announcing gig from you and let Vito do it. 

[brodygrant]

[ontherise219]

You're playing in the end of the pool you don't belong here, trust me, one only needs to look at your clear lack of understanding of the English language to prove this, just keep your mouth closed before I take that announcing gig from you and let Vito do it.

If you are thinking doing the announcer of the harvest classic is the end all be all for me, it is not. So if that is what your talking about enjoy man. You get in here all the time to be a troll then act like we are some how we are friends we are not.

[Fabio Jr.]

I can't hear you from all the way up there on your high horse.

[vito pepperelli]

Amazingly vito and sportsfangms have the same opinion and are at the same IP address.

 

First and foremost, the IP address has been explained previously. Second, why does it even matter?  Third, there's probably quite a few people who share my opinion. Sadly, some are possibly afraid you are going to belittle them, which is an all too familiar action when you feel threatened by someone who has an opposing viewpoint.  I stand by my earlier comment, you and others are on an ego trip and all it does is hurt opportunities for kids.  

 

If knowing who I am bothers you (or your man crush ontherise219) so much, feel free to send me a PM.  Lastly, the smart move on my part is to simply quit this forum since every time I respond I likely put advertising dollars in your pocket.  And the reality is I think your current actions are doing more harm than good to Indiana wrestling.  

[Fabio Jr.]

Yes pay my student loans off.....