MOWrestler Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 I coached in Colorado for 10 years before coming to IN and we had a classed system (4 classes). I do think kids got more exposure by being State Qualifiers or State Placers (kids that would have only made it to SS here); plus we had full wrestlebacks. I had a kid lose first round to a returning State Champ and get back for 3rd. It is a joke that we say we place even the top 8 kids the way we run the individual State Tournament right now. We pick the best kid (on that weekend). I know we are talking about classing here, but in the topic of EXPOSURE, 1 class coupled with our lack of wrestlebacks definitely hurts our exposure. Personally, I'd opt for 2 classes AND wrestlebacks. I'd leave the option for any school in the smaller class to 'bump-up' if they wished. Also, for the "true champion" crowd, I'd run a finale where the classed State Champs squared off. It would be an interesting test to see IF the large schools do or do not have a 'quality' advantage at the top end.... Of course other than on a message board nobody is really asking my opinion warsawwrestling and pjayroza 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
base Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 I coached in Colorado for 10 years before coming to IN and we had a classed system (4 classes). I do think kids got more exposure by being State Qualifiers or State Placers (kids that would have only made it to SS here); plus we had full wrestlebacks. I had a kid lose first round to a returning State Champ and get back for 3rd. It is a joke that we say we place even the top 8 kids the way we run the individual State Tournament right now. We pick the best kid (on that weekend). I know we are talking about classing here, but in the topic of EXPOSURE, 1 class coupled with our lack of wrestlebacks definitely hurts our exposure. Personally, I'd opt for 2 classes AND wrestlebacks. I'd leave the option for any school in the smaller class to 'bump-up' if they wished. Also, for the "true champion" crowd, I'd run a finale where the classed State Champs squared off. It would be an interesting test to see IF the large schools do or do not have a 'quality' advantage at the top end.... Of course other than on a message board nobody is really asking my opinion Curious since you have first hand experience - among your small division Colorado schools, what was the quality and participation level? Is Colorado sending a load of high school wrestlers from the smaller division schools to college wrestling programs or would you say the small school participation and quality (and 3-sport participation) is similar to current status in Indiana? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westforkwhite Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 I have on other post, so not to bore people I just kept it simple! Last year as most know my son lost his only match at ticket round and was a SS Qualifier. It sucked and he beat himself up over it for a long time (think till he made it past that point this year). But 1 of the highlights of this was going to off season tournaments in Michigan, Iowa, Virginia, Florida and others where he wrestled SQ, SP, and even State champs. After beating most of these kids they start asking things like who is this kid, where did he come from, and etc.... The hype factor of an unknown is powerful at these tournaments. As far as multi-class, my issue lies in the details. I believe the problem is not with classing but classing school size only. By not including schools that are less popular in wrestling in all classes (example: teams with 1-15 season record if lucky) you are not improving the sport just shifting the focus. I do believe that the off season tournaments are the best way to get your kid exposure. That said, my son (like yours) wants to wrestle in college. He was a 9-SSQ, 10-SQ, and 11-SQ, and he like your son has competed with and beaten SQ/SP from many states (including champs from MI & CO). Do you think those kids from MI or CO are getting more looks than my son based on the credentials? Off season tournaments aside, don't you believe that your son would have gotten more attention from college coaches had he placed higher/more often in a multi class format? (as obviously he would have been capable of) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOWrestler Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Curious since you have first hand experience - among your small division Colorado schools, what was the quality and participation level? Is Colorado sending a load of high school wrestlers from the smaller division schools to college wrestling programs or would you say the small school participation and quality (and 3-sport participation) is similar to current status in Indiana? Those are all good questions, but I don't have the stats on those. Unfortunately that was over 10 years ago now, so I am not sure it is worth more than my impression. I can tell you that the quality varied more by weight class than by purely school size. By that I mean the weights where there was significant depth, the quality was good all through the classes. I had a State Champ @ 220 one year who I would have killed to see wrestle against the 5A State Champ those 2 were clearly the best 2 kids in the state (we were a 3A School; classes were 1A/2A combined, 3A, 4A, 5A and I believe a school was classified as the same for all sports). So we were on the smaller end of things, but not tiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
base Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) Exposure is the only argument I need for class wrestling - much better than current stats or future estimated stats. Class wrestling will benefit multiple things... #1 College Recruitment. Benefits start Year 1. College coaches (DI, DII, DIII, & JuCo) first look at achievements of sophomores and juniors. Unless you're already an all-american, that is only going to include state achievements. Small school wrestlers from other states tend to get those achievements earlier in high school, which gets them looked at earlier by college coaches. Most college coaches consider your senior year too late to start recruiting. More exposure earlier in high school will mean more college offers for our small school wrestlers, some of whom might not have considered wrestling in college as an option. #2 Youth Participation. Benefits won't show for a few years. When a program has state champs, state placewinners, and state qualifiers year after year, it is much easier to grow your youth program. Kids like to see the success and continue the tradition. That's been a huge factor for Mater Dei, Bellmont, Yorktown, etc. With class wrestling you will see more small schools start to build their own legacy. #3 Future Coaches. Benefits won't show for several years. One thing that is holding us back as a state from getting to the next level is a lack of high school coaches with college wrestling experience. I'd be surprised if more than half of our head coaches wrestled in college. If we can get more of our wrestlers competing in college, then some of them will come back and coach high school, junior high, or youth clubs. That will improve our overall quality of wrestling. I do agree that, at least to me, this is the best argument for class wrestling. I'm not convinced it would work, and think maybe there are other methods. But, I respect your and Joe's and Galagore's and other proponents passion for helping the small school wrestlers to better opportunities If Indiana does end up going to a class-level wrestling at the individual level, I'd support it 100%. Sure, there would be those times when we'd all like to see the 1A vs 2A champ square off, but hopefully the benefits would outweight the what-if musings Edited February 22, 2017 by base bog190 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
base Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Regarding College Exposure -- Joe, would it be within IHSAA guidelines to add a section to IndianaMat that would allow HS wrestlers to declare their interest in wrestling at the college level, and have that linked to a list of their accomplishments? Might be a great one stop shop for smaller college coaches to get a list of interested athletes to get them on the radar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seindiana1 Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 There are pros/cons to each side. For years our kids were told they will NEVER win a team state title because it is very hard to do with only 7-8 kids in the wrestling room. I think there are bigger fish to fry though... just my opinion but can we work on getting wrestlebacks BEFORE anything else? There are many kids every year placing low that can dominate the some/many people placing above them. MOWrestler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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