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Class Wrestling - Participation


Westforkwhite

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So again I ask the question.. Does fairness mean that the wrestlers representing 11-12% of the students should have 33% of the success?

 

11-12% of the students make up 29% of the entries that have a chance of making it to the state finals. If they had 29% of the state qualifiers/placers/champs then we'd be equal. 

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11-12% of the students make up 29% of the entries that have a chance of making it to the state finals. If they had 29% of the state qualifiers/placers/champs then we'd be equal. 

 

I would even lower that number to 25% and use the word "fair" instead of "equal."

I don't think things need to be equal to be fair.

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Then can one of you explain how a given individual at a small school has the same shot as one at a large school?

 

Nobody has said they have the same exact shot. The route of a small school wrestler is different than that of a large school wrestler - but there are advantages and disadvantages for both. Why are you so concerned that a small school wrestler isn't winning state and a big school wrestler is? That's not saying the small school guy doesn't have a chance. But if you want to truly make wrestling more fair for wrestlers - the much bigger issue is wrestlers at larger schools not being able to compete because they are behind two or three people. The small school guys have the easy road. They don't have to beat anyone out in their room - or if they do, it's not many people. The system is fair to small school wrestlers. But, not everyone is going to win - and that's why those JV guys at larger schools set realistic goals. Maybe it's just to be varsity, maybe it's to win state. Small school guys can also set realistic goals. They could have a goal of being a sectional champ or more. But the system isn't unilaterally unfair to anyone.

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Nobody has said they have the same exact shot. The route of a small school wrestler is different than that of a large school wrestler - but there are advantages and disadvantages for both. Why are you so concerned that a small school wrestler isn't winning state and a big school wrestler is? That's not saying the small school guy doesn't have a chance. But if you want to truly make wrestling more fair for wrestlers - the much bigger issue is wrestlers at larger schools not being able to compete because they are behind two or three people. The small school guys have the easy road. They don't have to beat anyone out in their room - or if they do, it's not many people. The system is fair to small school wrestlers. But, not everyone is going to win - and that's why those JV guys at larger schools set realistic goals. Maybe it's just to be varsity, maybe it's to win state. Small school guys can also set realistic goals. They could have a goal of being a sectional champ or more. But the system isn't unilaterally unfair to anyone.

You scenario could be mitigated by allowing more entries at sectional. 

How does having quality partners to work your way through to get a varsity spot hinder the person in the varsity spot? 

The person in the varsity spot is the one competing in what I deem an unfair system. 

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You scenario could be mitigated by allowing more entries at sectional. 

How does having quality partners to work your way through to get a varsity spot hinder the person in the varsity spot? 

The person in the varsity spot is the one competing in what I deem an unfair system. 

I don't think it hinders anyone at all. But, why are you ignoring hundreds of JV wrestlers that put a ton of time into the sport that aren't allowed to compete in the state tournament, but then claim you think the small school guys deserve more opportunities? So wrestlers from small schools should get special privileges even though they get to wrestle in the sectionals, and backup wrestlers at larger schools are just SOL? I have seen much more JV wrestlers quit because of the frustration of being behind someone, than I have small school guys because they got beat by someone from a bigger school.

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So the parents are more dedicated at larger schools.

 

Is that an accurate statement?

NO dumb statement. THe parents at small rural schools are the ones that will be doing most of the work taking their kids to camp and RTC's and so on.  There is opportunity for everyone to get to the next level. Just got to find and have the resources.

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I don't think it hinders anyone at all. But, why are you ignoring hundreds of JV wrestlers that put a ton of time into the sport that aren't allowed to compete in the state tournament, but then claim you think the small school guys deserve more opportunities? So wrestlers from small schools should get special privileges even though they get to wrestle in the sectionals, and backup wrestlers at larger schools are just SOL? I have seen much more JV wrestlers quit because of the frustration of being behind someone, than I have small school guys because they got beat by someone from a bigger school.

Did you read the part about allowing more sectional entries?

I am in favor of helping the JV wrestler who can't crack the line-up. 

I just happen to be more concerned with creating a more fair system for small-school athletes. 

Are you saying attending the small school with the inferior coaches and less-dedicated team mates is special privilege?

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Here is one of the things that made me change my mind to support class wrestling a few years ago.  Yes, initially it will be much easier for a small school wrestler that is overall an average wrestler to qualify, place or even win state in a classed system.  As those things become a more real possibility for these wrestlers, don't you think that competition for that state championship would increase? As it becomes more possible for kids to chase that championship, more kids start working harder for it, increasing the level of wrestling at small schools.

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NO dumb statement. THe parents at small rural schools are the ones that will be doing most of the work taking their kids to camp and RTC's and so on.  There is opportunity for everyone to get to the next level. Just got to find and have the resources.

If parent dedication is the answer, and parents at large schools and small schools are equally dedicated, then why the discrepancy between small and large schools in the state tournament?

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Did you read the part about allowing more sectional entries?

I am in favor of helping the JV wrestler who can't crack the line-up. 

I just happen to be more concerned with creating a more fair system for small-school athletes. 

Are you saying attending the small school with the inferior coaches and less-dedicated team mates is special privilege?

We are going in circles - and neither of us will change our mind. I did not say attending small schools with inferior coaches and less-dedicated teammates is a privilege. I didn't say one bit of that. I did say that a small school wrestlers gets a shot in the sectional whereas many large school JV guys don't. If a small school wrestler has talent (because we all know hard work is great, but talent is usually necessary too), works hard, dedicates time in the offseason to the sport and strives toward a goal - they have as good of a shot as any large school wrestler. It's still two guys, weighing the same - going head to head.

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11-12% of the students make up 29% of the entries that have a chance of making it to the state finals. If they had 29% of the state qualifiers/placers/champs then we'd be equal.

This negates the number of students a respective wrestler must compete against to gain a varsity spot. You don't have the same chance of making the varsity spot at 3A that you do in 1A, so therefore the chances of being an entrant in the tournament goes up exponential at a smaller school.

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So only 22 kids at the small school level have dedicated parents, while 140 kids at big schools have dedicated parents

Now what do people consider dedicated??? Picking your kid up after practice? Driving hours to find the better comp in practice rooms? 

 

My statement as I'm sure you knew. The parents at smaller schools have to be the driving force to make their kids better.

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If parent dedication is the answer, and parents at large schools and small schools are equally dedicated, then why the discrepancy between small and large schools in the state tournament?

Participation "I'll use New Washington as an example" They had 4-8 wrestlers this past season. Got a kid to state. Put in class wrestling and they will have 4-8 kids. And their kid got some nice press. 

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Now what do people consider dedicated??? Picking your kid up after practice? Driving hours to find the better comp in practice rooms? 

 

My statement as I'm sure you knew. The parents at smaller schools have to be the driving force to make their kids better.

So by what you are saying big school parents are about 7 times more dedicated than small school ones...right?

 

 

This negates the number of students a respective wrestler must compete against to gain a varsity spot. You don't have the same chance of making the varsity spot at 3A that you do in 1A, so therefore the chances of being an entrant in the tournament goes up exponential at a smaller school.

True or false

1. Wrestler A and B who enter sectional have the same shot at being a state champion/placer/qualifier.

2. Big schools SHOULD have more state champions/placers/qualifiers.

3. In most cases a 106lbs wrestler cannot compete with a 285lbs wrestler

4. The premise for classed athletics is that playing schools of the similar size creates a more fair environment.

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I don't think it hinders anyone at all. But, why are you ignoring hundreds of JV wrestlers that put a ton of time into the sport that aren't allowed to compete in the state tournament, but then claim you think the small school guys deserve more opportunities? So wrestlers from small schools should get special privileges even though they get to wrestle in the sectionals, and backup wrestlers at larger schools are just SOL? I have seen much more JV wrestlers quit because of the frustration of being behind someone, than I have small school guys because they got beat by someone from a bigger school.

 

 

I would say that's fairly accurate - since the vast majority of students are in the large schools, thus, by sheer mathematics they would have a larger number of athletes. As far as coaching, I would also say the very good coaches would probably gravitate toward a school where they have the largest numbers. There are certainly exceptions - but for the most part, like in any sport at any level, the high-level coaches would seek out the elite type jobs.

 

 

I understand wanting to see more kids feel excited and empowered to wrestle. But, regarding your second point - I would argue (albeit completely based on perception and not statistics, because I don't have that info). But, as far as your point about fairness. I'd argue that small schools actually have an advantage over large schools. At large schools you have JV guys that can sometimes be very, very good. But, because they are behind someone in their own lineup - they don't even get to compete in sectional when a small school might have a kid with a 4-19 record that gets a shot. The kid from the large school may wrestle in the offseason, and dedicate a ton of time to the sport - but they still might not be able to beat out that guy ahead of him in the room. Classing the sport will not help that. The small schools have a huge advantage in that regard.

I would say two things determine a wrestler's ultimate success. 1) Their own personal drive to get better 2) Their coach's expertise and ability to train them to be the best.

That's not saying some coaches are terrible if they don't have state champions - it's saying like in all things, there are some coaches that are better than others.

 

Here are the quotes that led to my conclusion.  Please point out any logic errors I have made.

Participation "I'll use New Washington as an example" They had 4-8 wrestlers this past season. Got a kid to state. Put in class wrestling and they will have 4-8 kids. And their kid got some nice press. 

I am not sure how this answers my question. 

Edited by Galagore
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As one that has been conditioned to only be able to absorb something as long as a 2 minute YouTube video, I'm not sure I could stand to watch more that 14 weight classes per State Final tournament, let alone 14 times two or three more...

 

Sorry, I know I have issues...  B)

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So by what you are saying big school parents are about 7 times more dedicated than small school ones...right?

 

 

True or false

1. Wrestler A and B who enter sectional have the same shot at being a state champion/placer/qualifier.

2. Big schools SHOULD have more state champions/placers/qualifiers.

3. In most cases a 106lbs wrestler cannot compete with a 285lbs wrestler

4. The premise for classed athletics is that playing schools of the similar size creates a more fair environment.

1) False, when would this ever be true? Even with the exact same environment, room size and coaching they will not be equal because each kid is different.

2) True

3) True, but you seem to expect that the # of students shouldn't matter as it relates to equal representation in qualifiers or placers

4) True, but with exception of the placers being slightly below their expected average, they are experiencing a fair environment. Unless you expect 11% to have 33% of the success.

 

Why doesn't anyone want to discuss the impacts of multi class wrestling on 2A or 3A schools? We spend all our time talking about 11%, and zero time talking about the 89%. We are never going to be able to have much impact on the total participation numbers while ignoring the 88%. The best case scenario for gains in 1A is a 300-400 new wrestlers, whereas if we could put forth initiatives that help participation in 2A & 3A we have potential to add a 1K or more to our totals. It doesn't require a mathematics degree to see that no matter how much you squeeze you'll never get as much juice from an orange 1/8 the size.

 

Maybe class wrestling helps both? But there is little to no discussion.

Edited by Westforkwhite
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I guess I didn't realize that there is not an equal chance of making it to state.

 

So winning two matches(three with a rattail match) at sectional, one at regional, and two at semi-state and you advance to state. I think that is pretty standard throughout the state isn't it?

Does Johnny JV who makes the varsity spot via injury have an equal chance of qualifying/placing as Joe Lee? Does a swimmer have an equal chance just because they entered the race?

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NO dumb statement. THe parents at small rural schools are the ones that will be doing most of the work taking their kids to camp and RTC's and so on.  There is opportunity for everyone to get to the next level. Just got to find and have the resources.

Unfortunately, you're speaking on deaf ears.
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