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Class Wrestling - Participation


Westforkwhite

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I haven't read this entire thread, but I will say I see wrestling picking up in popularity in my county, Henry. Before, New Castle could just trample anyone in its path. Now, New Castle is in an absolute dog fight with Shenandoah and Knightstown. Tri and Centerville bring pretty good teams to the sectional as well.

 

The largest school in the sectional, Richmond, typically has finished toward the back of the pack. Shenandoah emerged as the winner this year.

I think Shenandoah proved what can be done at small schools to increase participation and success. They had a coach absolutely dedicated to getting kids out at the middle school level and teaching them how to be successful. They had three state placers this year, and a runner-up. They also had a 170 pound freshman that lost in the ticket round, which was his only loss all year. He had beaten a few state placers during the year as well.

The gym is packed completely full during the sectional. The small schools know they can compete with, and beat the big schools. I think it has drove participation up in this county.

 

Two years ago there were 118 wrestlers in the sectional. Tri, New Castle, Centerville, Eastern Hancock and Knightstown fielded full teams. Shenandoah only had seven wrestlers. Richmond had 11.

 

This year Eastern Hancock and Knightstown fielded full teams. Tri, New Castle and Shenandoah had 13 weight classes filled. Richmond only had 7. This year there were also 118 wrestlers though - proving numbers change from year to year on almost all teams.

 

One point that I see talked about a lot is that the small schools don't have as good of practice partners, so they struggle succeeding in the tourney. New Castle had one state qualifier. Shenandoah had five. Richmond, who has one of the smallest contingencies of wrestlers in the sectional - had a guy finish third. So, technically Richmond is a large school, but there is no-one in the room to push Alston Bane. Knightstown fielded a full team and has a JV team, yet no state qualifiers. So, in a long way to get to the point - I think this illustrates how wrestling success is very much dependent on the individual wrestler and the coaching. A wrestler can be successful despite of coming from a small room. Shenandoah did it when two years ago they had seven wrestlers.

Edited by grappleapple
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If there is equal opportunity, and a coach can be successful anywhere, then why aren't there as many small-school place-winners as there are big-school place winners?  Is it merely coincidental that most of the small schools have inadequate coaches and athletes who aren't truly dedicated to the sport?

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If there is equal opportunity, and a coach can be successful anywhere, then why aren't there as many small-school place-winners as there are big-school place winners?  Is it merely coincidental that most of the small schools have inadequate coaches and athletes who aren't truly dedicated to the sport?

 

That's not what I said at all. But, there aren't as many small school place winners as there are big school, because there's a lot less students making up the small schools. Why would you expect 10 percent of the students to fare better than the 90%?

Only 5 1A schools had more state qualifiers than Richmond. Even at what you are describing as a poor 3A school, they are still getting more state qualifiers and placers than 95% of the 1A schools.

Exactly. But why? How is it that Richmond, with just a handful of wrestlers in their program - has a guy place in state? The "more wrestlers in the room to compete with" argument doesn't work in this case. And I do completely agree that having more opponents in the room pushes kids to get better. But I'm also of the mind set that kids are fully capable of dedicating whatever they want to the sport to get what they want out of it.

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That's not what I said at all. But, there aren't as many small school place winners as there are big school, because there's a lot less students making up the small schools. Why would you expect 10 percent of the students to fare better than the 90%?

 

Big and small schools still have the same number of available entries in the state tournament.  Population does not dictate participation.

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Big and small schools still have the same number of available entries in the state tournament.  Population does not dictate participation.

 

That's not entirely true. They have the same number of available wrestling spots - true, but they don't fill those spots at all times. Blue River had two kids competing in sectional.

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That's not entirely true. They have the same number of available wrestling spots - true, but they don't fill those spots at all times. Blue River had two kids competing in sectional.

 

It actually is entirely true. 

Every school can enter 14 wrestlers.

Would you say it is easier for a big school to fill those 14 spaces?

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It actually is entirely true. 

Every school can enter 14 wrestlers.

Would you say it is easier for a big school to fill those 14 spaces?

Are we talking about filling spots, or having success? Because, of course it's easier if you have 2,000 students in your school to fill 14 weight classes than it would be if you have a few hundred students. Your comment that population does not dictate participation is what I'm saying isn't true. How can you even debate that?

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That's not entirely true. They have the same number of available wrestling spots - true, but they don't fill those spots at all times. Blue River had two kids competing in sectional.

Picking out extreme examples doesn't help your argument. 

 

If you use the forfeit data from sectional here are the participation percentages

 

1A 28.76%

2A 33.23%

3A 37.84%

 

Even with that, only 5.35% of the state placers were from 1A, 25.89% from 2A, and 68.75% from 3A.

 

There were more 3A wrestlers wrestling in the FINALS, than 1A wrestlers that even qualified for state.

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If there is equal opportunity, and a coach can be successful anywhere, then why aren't there as many small-school place-winners as there are big-school place winners?  Is it merely coincidental that most of the small schools have inadequate coaches and athletes who aren't truly dedicated to the sport?

So would you expect to as many good apples in 1 bushel as you could find in 10 bushels? No of course you wouldn't, probability would dictate more good apples coming from 10 bushels.

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Are we talking about filling spots, or having success? Because, of course it's easier if you have 2,000 students in your school to fill 14 weight classes than it would be if you have a few hundred students. Your comment that population does not dictate participation is what I'm saying isn't true. How can you even debate that?

 

You are correct, I was wrong about population not dictating participation.

If a big school can more likely fill the spots, are they then more likely to fill the spots with quality wrestlers/athletes?

So would you expect to as many good apples in 1 bushel as you could find in 10 bushels? No of course you wouldn't, probability would dictate more good apples coming from 10 bushels.

 

Yes, that is a really good point.

So if we were having a "how many good apples do yo have" contest, the person with 10 bushels would have a clear advantage over the person with one.

Further, if we were having a "who has the best apple" contest, the person with 10 bushels also holds a decided advantage.

You make an excellent point.

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You are correct, I was wrong about population not dictating participation.

If a big school can more likely fill the spots, are they then more likely to fill the spots with quality wrestlers/athletes?

Absolutely. But where is it written each school should have an equal chance regardless of their population? This assumption that all schools should have an equal #s of qualifiers and placers is farcical. Your amount of success should be dictated by your numbers, which gives each respective male in the school an equal chance of being a qualifier or placer.

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You are correct, I was wrong about population not dictating participation.

If a big school can more likely fill the spots, are they then more likely to fill the spots with quality wrestlers/athletes?

 

Yes, that is a really good point.

So if we were having a "how many good apples do yo have" contest, the person with 10 bushels would have a clear advantage over the person with one.

Further, if we were having a "who has the best apple" contest, the person with 10 bushels also holds a decided advantage.

You make an excellent point.

 

What is the end game to the class wrestling argument? What is ultimately the goal trying to be accomplished? Is it about increasing wrestling participation? Is it about more guys feeling successful? What's the ultimate deciding factor that people have leaned towards it for?

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When you say "each respective male in the school" do you mean in a given school? 

So a male at Carmel has the same chance as another male at Carmel? 

Or a male at Carmel has the same chance as a male at Triton?

Should each athlete have an equal chance regardless of his or her school population?

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When you say "each respective male in the school" do you mean in a given school? 

So a male at Carmel has the same chance as another male at Carmel? 

Or a male at Carmel has the same chance as a male at Triton?

Should each athlete have an equal chance regardless of his or her school population?

Is your argument then that schools should be allowed to have 3 or 4 people per weight class? Is it that Indiana's tournament should be open enrollment so all JV and everyone can enter? Or, is it that small schools need a better chance? I get confused on this.

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What is the end game to the class wrestling argument? What is ultimately the goal trying to be accomplished? Is it about increasing wrestling participation? Is it about more guys feeling successful? What's the ultimate deciding factor that people have leaned towards it for?

 

Personally, I have two reasons for supporting class wrestling:

1. Participation - When students see classmates being successful, they feel more empowered to attempt to be successful themselves.

2. Fairness -  An athlete at a larger school (generally) has access to a lot more resources than an athlete at a smaller school.  If you want to argue that, "things aren't fair, deal with it." then I don't have a lot of counter.  My mindset in life, though is that if something is unfair, and there is a way to fix it, it should be fixed.  That goes beyond wrestling.

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Absolutely. But where is it written each school should have an equal chance regardless of their population? This assumption that all schools should have an equal #s of qualifiers and placers is farcical. Your amount of success should be dictated by your numbers, which gives each respective male in the school an equal chance of being a qualifier or placer.

The premise behind class wrestling is small schools in general cannot compete with their big counterparts.

 

The premise behind single class wrestling is everyone is equal and there is no difference.

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Is your argument then that schools should be allowed to have 3 or 4 people per weight class? Is it that Indiana's tournament should be open enrollment so all JV and everyone can enter? Or, is it that small schools need a better chance? I get confused on this.

I apologize for providing an unclear argument.  My argument is that wrestling in Indiana should consist of 2 classes.  This would maintain large numbers of schools in each class and give schools with smaller populations a more even playing field in which to compete in the state tournament.  I am not against allowing for than 14 entries per school (in a classed system), but haven't really given the matter much thought and would need to have more information and consideration before making a decision.

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The premise behind class wrestling is small schools in general cannot compete with their big counterparts.

 

The premise behind single class wrestling is everyone is equal and there is no difference.

So again I ask the question.. Does fairness mean that the wrestlers representing 11-12% of the students should have 33% of the success?

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Personally, I have two reasons for supporting class wrestling:

1. Participation - When students see classmates being successful, they feel more empowered to attempt to be successful themselves.

2. Fairness -  An athlete at a larger school (generally) has access to a lot more resources than an athlete at a smaller school.  If you want to argue that, "things aren't fair, deal with it." then I don't have a lot of counter.  My mindset in life, though is that if something is unfair, and there is a way to fix it, it should be fixed.  That goes beyond wrestling.

 

I understand wanting to see more kids feel excited and empowered to wrestle. But, regarding your second point - I would argue (albeit completely based on perception and not statistics, because I don't have that info). But, as far as your point about fairness. I'd argue that small schools actually have an advantage over large schools. At large schools you have JV guys that can sometimes be very, very good. But, because they are behind someone in their own lineup - they don't even get to compete in sectional when a small school might have a kid with a 4-19 record that gets a shot. The kid from the large school may wrestle in the offseason, and dedicate a ton of time to the sport - but they still might not be able to beat out that guy ahead of him in the room. Classing the sport will not help that. The small schools have a huge advantage in that regard.

I would say two things determine a wrestler's ultimate success. 1) Their own personal drive to get better 2) Their coach's expertise and ability to train them to be the best.

That's not saying some coaches are terrible if they don't have state champions - it's saying like in all things, there are some coaches that are better than others.

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I understand wanting to see more kids feel excited and empowered to wrestle. But, regarding your second point - I would argue (albeit completely based on perception and not statistics, because I don't have that info). But, as far as your point about fairness. I'd argue that small schools actually have an advantage over large schools. At large schools you have JV guys that can sometimes be very, very good. But, because they are behind someone in their own lineup - they don't even get to compete in sectional when a small school might have a kid with a 4-19 record that gets a shot. The kid from the large school may wrestle in the offseason, and dedicate a ton of time to the sport - but they still might not be able to beat out that guy ahead of him in the room. Classing the sport will not help that. The small schools have a huge advantage in that regard.

I would say two things determine a wrestler's ultimate success. 1) Their own personal drive to get better 2) Their coach's expertise and ability to train them to be the best.

That's not saying some coaches are terrible if they don't have state champions - it's saying like in all things, there are some coaches that are better than others.

 

So the vast majority of the good coaches and driven athletes reside in large schools.

Do you find this statement to be accurate?

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So the vast majority of the good coaches and driven athletes reside in large schools.

Do you find this statement to be accurate?

I would say that's fairly accurate - since the vast majority of students are in the large schools, thus, by sheer mathematics they would have a larger number of athletes. As far as coaching, I would also say the very good coaches would probably gravitate toward a school where they have the largest numbers. There are certainly exceptions - but for the most part, like in any sport at any level, the high-level coaches would seek out the elite type jobs.

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