Class Wrestling - Participation

[V and M's Dad]

I have a question, what actually determines a small school. I know it is enrollment in other sports. Yet Mater Dei wrestles in the 3A duals grouping. They are obviously really good and have a great program and have had for years and years. Yorktown also has a rich history and as we saw this weekend a great program. How would they be classed?

[Y2CJ41]

Possibly, but I don't believe that classing wrestling is the solution to get more participation

There are two things that could and probably would happen if we went to class wrestling.

 

1. Good coaches would be more likely to stay at smaller schools. Right now there is no incentive to stay at a smaller school when an opportunity arises to move up. See other sports that have very talented coaches that have stayed at their smaller schools as an example.

 

2. More wrestlers would get state credentials earlier in their career. With that they will get attention from college coaches earlier. I'll use Eli Stock as an example. If he would have been a placer in a small class he would have been able to market himself to college coaches last spring and already have some interest from college coaches. However, he has only one placement(a pretty good one) in late February. Most college coaches have allocated their roster spots(note many college have roster limits) and even more so scholarship money a long time ago. Having even a state qualifier credential would have been very beneficial to him coming into this season. He is just one example of many that has to compete with kids in Ohio, MIchigan, Illiniois, etc that already have state credentials on their resume. Whether you like it or not, those kids are getting attention from college coaches much easier due to their "watered down system."

[base]

The inherent challenge of a small school is that regardless of what you do to make a sport more enticing, there are a limited number of potential participants just based on population. So from the already small pool of participants, remove those playing other winter sports (basketball, possibly swimming). Now remove the number of kids that have other pursuits such as band, stage productions. Take out kids that have been convinced by another sport to "specialize" and are conditioning for baseball or the dreaded non-sport of "lifting'. Factor other normal high school things like working, ineligibility due to poor grades, etc

 

You're left with the current wrestlers, plus possibly a small number of non wrestlers that may have interest because the team has shown success. To think that those will line up each year against the spots with forfeits is suspect

[Y2CJ41]

I have a question, what actually determines a small school. I know it is enrollment in other sports. Yet Mater Dei wrestles in the 3A duals grouping. They are obviously really good and have a great program and have had for years and years. Yorktown also has a rich history and as we saw this weekend a great program. How would they be classed?

The IHSAA allows schools to bump up a class for I believe two years at a time.

 

Based on enrollments, Yorktown would be a "big school" in a two class system and Mater Dei would be a small school. The cutoff for two classes would be about 700 students(meaning about 150 teams have 700 students or less and 150 have 700+). Yorktown has 801 students and Mater Dei has 529 per this year's release.

The inherent challenge of a small school is that regardless of what you do to make a sport more enticing, there are a limited number of potential participants just based on population. So from the already small pool of participants, remove those playing other winter sports (basketball, possibly swimming). Now remove the number of kids that have other pursuits such as band, stage productions. Take out kids that have been convinced by another sport to "specialize" and are conditioning for baseball or the dreaded non-sport of "lifting'. Factor other normal high school things like working, ineligibility due to poor grades, etc

 

You're left with the current wrestlers, plus possibly a small number of non wrestlers that may have interest because the team has shown success. To think that those will line up each year against the spots with forfeits is suspect

There are more potential wrestlers walking the halls than you want to admit. Remember you don't have to be tall, big, athletic, etc to be a wrestler. Wrestlers are all shapes and sizes, which makes it very enticing to smaller kids especially. 

 

When a school starts having success and other kids see it, they want to be a part of it. It is drastically harder to recruit kids for a struggling program, than a good one. When kids start qualifying for state or getting a lot closer to going to state you'll see more buzz about the program within the school. That will lead to more participants at the high school level and even at the youth and middle school levels.

[base]

Joe, Theres no doubt your heart is in the right place and you clearly love the sport. But personally I don't think wrestling in college is a major goal for the majority of high school wrestlers.

 

An increased focus on academics would open far more doors to college than classing an individual sports championship.

 

I think there are methods to increase participation in the great sport. An increase in youth programs, more readily available academy-type coaching, quick/fun weeknight competitions rather than all day tournaments, etc

 

Quality of wrestling and college notice are 2 future topics, so I'll stop at that

[Y2CJ41]

Joe, Theres no doubt your heart is in the right place and you clearly love the sport. But personally I don't think wrestling in college is a major goal for the majority of high school wrestlers.

 

An increased focus on academics would open far more doors to college than classing an individual sports championship.

 

I think there are methods to increase participation in the great sport. An increase in youth programs, more readily available academy-type coaching, quick/fun weeknight competitions rather than all day tournaments, etc

 

Quality of wrestling and college notice are 2 future topics, so I'll stop at that

There are a lot more positive affects than there would be negatives. Wrestling at the small schools is not healthy right now, should we let it die there?

[base]

There are a lot more positive affects than there would be negatives. Wrestling at the small schools is not healthy right now, should we let it die there?

I disagree, the 1A and 2A team state championships had some great wrestling.

 

The sport is killing itself, in some regards. How many young kids that don't have a relative on the team have seen a wrestling match? Could it because nobody is interested in enduring the current marathon Saturday events as weeknight duals dry up? How many elementary PE classes have a wrestling lesson? How many parents are scared of any contact sports as helicopter parenting becomes more prevalent? How many modern kids are addicted to the drug of that electronic device glued to their hands and eyes? What increase is there in "travel teams" where parents can relive their dreams of being called "Elite" through their children.

 

Without exposure to the sport in a healthy way at a younger age, our sports ambassadors such as yourself will be spending time recruiting, searching the halls for untapped athletes

[1prouddad]

I believe it all starts at the youth programs. We build them from there and get them involved in more than just seasonal matches.

There have been several great opinions into this matter. The opprotunity to just walk the high school halls and pull "potential" wrestlers out of either another sport or in some instances,against the parents wishes are slim to none. To try and entice them by saying you're going to be ok because you're in a wrestling class so you don't have to wrestle the big schools is even more far fetched. Years ago while participating in sports and growing up in a very small school district, it was that more exciting knowing that we have the opprotunity to beat the giants. It molded me to work just that much harder.

Edited February 21, 2017 by 1prouddad

[Westforkwhite]

I appreciate the original posters attempt to keep a focused discussion. As usual it's muddied with comparisons to team sports such as basketball and football. We have a classed team championship, which doesn't seem to have anyone against it so those comparisons are moot.

Further, focusing on participation numbers, is the primary goal to get more kids out for wrestling in general, more kids so that sectional forfeits are decreased, or does "participation" somehow equate to a larger number of placers by small schools?

Thank you. This is what is was trying to avoid.

 

A very good question. There are multiple layers to participation. In order of importance(in my opinion)

 

1) total number of kids wrestling in HS 2) total number entering the state tournament 3) fan interest, as this is a driver of participation

 

We don't want forfeits and should work to eliminate them, however the total number of participants is the number we should be focused on. It is the greater indicator of overall health of wrestling in IN.

[casualwrestlingfan]

3A 100/102

2A 96/103

1A 85/103

Total 281/308

 

Data is here

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1krfJOL8VwuS33WW30KkI6rtHlL-lhu2QhNUcp4Hw8AM/edit?usp=sharing

Thank you, just what I needed.

[Y2CJ41]

I disagree, the 1A and 2A team state championships had some great wrestling.

 

The sport is killing itself, in some regards. How many young kids that don't have a relative on the team have seen a wrestling match? Could it because nobody is interested in enduring the current marathon Saturday events as weeknight duals dry up? How many elementary PE classes have a wrestling lesson? How many parents are scared of any contact sports as helicopter parenting becomes more prevalent? How many modern kids are addicted to the drug of that electronic device glued to their hands and eyes? What increase is there in "travel teams" where parents can relive their dreams of being called "Elite" through their children.

 

Without exposure to the sport in a healthy way at a younger age, our sports ambassadors such as yourself will be spending time recruiting, searching the halls for untapped athletes

You can add not having class wrestling to your list of why we are killing ourselves.

[rookie78]

Another out of curiosity question:

 

Which states have recently (within last 10-20 years or so) switched to class wrestling? Of those, what were their participation numbers like before and after the switch?

[takemtothemat]

TripleB already has the Trademark on that one.

Always a day late

[Y2CJ41]

Another out of curiosity question:

 

Which states have recently (within last 10-20 years or so) switched to class wrestling? Of those, what were their participation numbers like before and after the switch?

New York is probably around 10 years

Texas within the past 3-5 I believe, however they have sanctioned wrestling for at most like 20 years

[Westforkwhite]

Another out of curiosity question:

 

Which states have recently (within last 10-20 years or so) switched to class wrestling? Of those, what were their participation numbers like before and after the switch?

NY classed in 2004

70 14,500

71 15,000

74 18,000

76 18,226

81 18,760

86 15,784

91 12,460

96 11,414

01 11,980

02 12,646

03 12,013

04 12,013* First year of class (but it appears they just went with the prior years #s)

05 12,879

06 12,879

07 12,879

08 13,932

09 13,932

10 13,932

11 14,367

12 13,668

13 13,668

14 13,668

15 13,668

 

As Y2 pointed out previously these #s aren't 100%. We can see with NY that often times the number was used for 3-4 years, thus we don't have a complete picture. Given the national climate of dropping numbers and relatively small population growth in NY over this time frame it appears multi class has benefited NY. That said I'm certainly not an expert on NY wrestling and don't know for certain that class wrestling was the cause, but I have to assume it is without any knowledge to the contrary

[Y2CJ41]

Worst case it does not look like New York was affected by having class wrestling. In all honesty I think you need a 10-15 year period to see how it affects a state. 

 

Much like our class basketball we had initial backlash, but since then the numbers have steadily improved.

[Westforkwhite]

Worst case it does not look like New York was affected by having class wrestling. In all honesty I think you need a 10-15 year period to see how it affects a state. 

 

Much like our class basketball we had initial backlash, but since then the numbers have steadily improved.

I'd be careful to compare to IN basketball which has significantly lower attendance and participation than it did pre-class. Yes attendance has been rising slightly but it has still yet to approach even 60% of the fans they had the year prior to class. Participation has dropped the last several years and is much lower than pre-class.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Westforkwhite

[Kookie953]

I guess all I can go by is what I know...which admittedly is not much.  But I do think I kind of have a bit of a unique perspective because I'm that parent going through having my kid wrestle for the first time right at this very moment.  So maybe to add some color to this, here's our story and why I think it applies...and why the class we are in has nothing to do with it.  I've posted something similar elsewhere, but it's a good study in program building.

 

We live in Brownsburg.  My son is a 5th grader and just started wrestling in November.  He has been a football and basketball player his whole life, and is pretty good at both.  Not the best, but above average and has always made the "travel" or "AllStar" teams for both football and hoops.  Despite his success and most of his buddies continuing to play basketball, he made the decision this fall to give wrestling a shot (we steadfastly refuse to let our kids do 2 sports at once so that meant giving up organized basketball for a season). 

 

That seed to wrestle was planted a year ago last weekend.  I am also a football coach, and knew quite a few of our state qualifiers and wanted to support them at state.  My son is the ball boy Friday nights and the tagalong whenever he can.  So we went down to BLF last year knowing next to nothing about the sport, and watched our guys finish 2nd in state.  We figured out that if one dude "tackles" another dude you're supposed to yell "TWOOOO".  It was awesome.

 

Unbeknownst to me, that seed had taken root in my kid...until finally it was a few days before his tryout for his travel basketball team this fall.  "Dad, I think I want to give wrestling a shot."  

 

"Ok buddy...but you know that means you won't be playing basketball for your Hoops team, right?  And you will be wrestling really good kids that have been doing this since they were 4 years old sometimes...so you are going to get your a$$ kicked.  A lot.  And oh yeah, wrestling is really freaking hard for anyone, let along someone just starting in 5th grade."

 

"I know, but I really want to try it."

 

So he dove into club wrestling...something that Coach Snyder and Weisjahn put nearly as much time, effort and energy into (if not more) as they do with the high school program.  They INVEST in the youth (i.e. the future) as much as the kids going to State.  My son?  He fell in love.  The fact that the high school coaches know his name and have taken an interest in him matters a ton.  While i can't predict the future, and he's had some good success despite being a beginner...he may not ever wrestle for our high school.  If he does he may never wrestle varsity.  And that's OK...he at least has given it a shot.  And while he may never make it to BLF, if things continue as they have then I have a suspicion he's going to give it his best shot to get there.  The dude LOVES to wrestle.  

 

The so what...and why it matters to this discussion?

 

Had we lived a few miles east in Wayne Township, where the largest HS in the state (Ben Davis) has a pretty mediocre wrestling program (apologies to Donald Campbell, who was great)...my kid would still be on the hardwood.  If we lived a few miles southwest in Monrovia?   I have a sneaky suspicion that there quite a few kids just like my son that watched their own destroy the giants...and are now dreaming of one day that being them.  

 

I realize it could be interpreted that this story supports classes because in the Monrovia example that seems to say "winning state is important".  My thought is that if Eli Stock beat Matt Pennedalot from North Central Southern Eastern (Clinton) in some "small school state" in a 0:19 fall...that is not nearly as impactful as those Monrovia guys BATTLING with whomever, whenever, and wherever in sectional, regional, and semistate.  

 

Program building is sales.  Coach Snyder went and FOUND kids in the hallways to wrestle.  Anthony Cicarelli (state qualifier at 170) told my son on the floor of BLF on Saturday..."buddy, coach snyder came and found me my freshman year and got me to be able to wrestle here.  Just imagine what you will be able to do starting in 5th grade."  He and his staff INVEST in the youth program. The results are showing.  It's not because we happen to be a "big school" that is "doing well".  He found kids.  He and his staff developed them.  They bought in.  The cycle is repeating.

 

My son's observation as we drove home from BLF, pumped up about watching our team win it's first IHSAA team state title?  "Dad, you know what's really cool about wrestling?  I looked at that list of high schools with state qualifiers in the program.  I've never heard of a lot of those high schools!  And some of the really good football teams hardly have anyone at all!  That's awesome!" 

 

Don't mess with the single coolest event in high school sports...one that planted a seed in my kid's head and heart that led him to a sport he absolutely loves.  

 

Now back to some statistics.

[Y2CJ41]

I guess all I can go by is what I know...which admittedly is not much.  But I do think I kind of have a bit of a unique perspective because I'm that parent going through having my kid wrestle for the first time right at this very moment.  So maybe to add some color to this, here's our story and why I think it applies...and why the class we are in has nothing to do with it.  I've posted something similar elsewhere, but it's a good study in program building.

 

We live in Brownsburg.  My son is a 5th grader and just started wrestling in November.  He has been a football and basketball player his whole life, and is pretty good at both.  Not the best, but above average and has always made the "travel" or "AllStar" teams for both football and hoops.  Despite his success and most of his buddies continuing to play basketball, he made the decision this fall to give wrestling a shot (we steadfastly refuse to let our kids do 2 sports at once so that meant giving up organized basketball for a season). 

 

That seed to wrestle was planted a year ago last weekend.  I am also a football coach, and knew quite a few of our state qualifiers and wanted to support them at state.  My son is the ball boy Friday nights and the tagalong whenever he can.  So we went down to BLF last year knowing next to nothing about the sport, and watched our guys finish 2nd in state.  We figured out that if one dude "tackles" another dude you're supposed to yell "TWOOOO".  It was awesome.

 

Unbeknownst to me, that seed had taken root in my kid...until finally it was a few days before his tryout for his travel basketball team this fall.  "Dad, I think I want to give wrestling a shot."  

 

"Ok buddy...but you know that means you won't be playing basketball for your Hoops team, right?  And you will be wrestling really good kids that have been doing this since they were 4 years old sometimes...so you are going to get your a$$ kicked.  A lot.  And oh yeah, wrestling is really freaking hard for anyone, let along someone just starting in 5th grade."

 

"I know, but I really want to try it."

 

So he dove into club wrestling...something that Coach Snyder and Weisjahn put nearly as much time, effort and energy into (if not more) as they do with the high school program.  They INVEST in the youth (i.e. the future) as much as the kids going to State.  My son?  He fell in love.  The fact that the high school coaches know his name and have taken an interest in him matters a ton.  While i can't predict the future, and he's had some good success despite being a beginner...he may not ever wrestle for our high school.  If he does he may never wrestle varsity.  And that's OK...he at least has given it a shot.  And while he may never make it to BLF, if things continue as they have then I have a suspicion he's going to give it his best shot to get there.  The dude LOVES to wrestle.  

 

The so what...and why it matters to this discussion?

 

Had we lived a few miles east in Wayne Township, where the largest HS in the state (Ben Davis) has a pretty mediocre wrestling program (apologies to Donald Campbell, who was great)...my kid would still be on the hardwood.  If we lived a few miles southwest in Monrovia?   I have a sneaky suspicion that there quite a few kids just like my son that watched their own destroy the giants...and are now dreaming of one day that being them.  

 

I realize it could be interpreted that this story supports classes because in the Monrovia example that seems to say "winning state is important".  My thought is that if Eli Stock beat Matt Pennedalot from North Central Southern Eastern (Clinton) in some "small school state" in a 0:19 fall...that is not nearly as impactful as those Monrovia guys BATTLING with whomever, whenever, and wherever in sectional, regional, and semistate.  

 

Program building is sales.  Coach Snyder went and FOUND kids in the hallways to wrestle.  Anthony Cicarelli (state qualifier at 170) told my son on the floor of BLF on Saturday..."buddy, coach snyder came and found me my freshman year and got me to be able to wrestle here.  Just imagine what you will be able to do starting in 5th grade."  He and his staff INVEST in the youth program. The results are showing.  It's not because we happen to be a "big school" that is "doing well".  He found kids.  He and his staff developed them.  They bought in.  The cycle is repeating.

 

My son's observation as we drove home from BLF, pumped up about watching our team win it's first IHSAA team state title?  "Dad, you know what's really cool about wrestling?  I looked at that list of high schools with state qualifiers in the program.  I've never heard of a lot of those high schools!  And some of the really good football teams hardly have anyone at all!  That's awesome!" 

 

Don't mess with the single coolest event in high school sports...one that planted a seed in my kid's head and heart that led him to a sport he absolutely loves.  

 

Now back to some statistics.

How do you expect say a school like Danville or Cascade to build a program when they have a sectional dominated by the likes of Brownsburg and Avon? How do they build excitement around their program when they are getting beat 72-3 by the big dawgs and birds.

[Kookie953]

How do you expect say a school like Danville or Cascade to build a program when they have a sectional dominated by the likes of Brownsburg and Avon? How do they build excitement around their program when they are getting beat 72-3 by the big dawgs and birds.

 

Fair question...and the same way that anyone else does.  As a coach you go sell your program.  You build upon small incremental steps.

 

Logan Boe seemed to do OK for Danville.  Build on that.  I see quite a few Cascade kids at Red Cobra.  I suspect there may be more at Contenders.  Develop your future.  Beg and borrow kids and make it meaningful.  Get buy in from the football coach that you're going to build better athletes together.    

 

And oh btw, the dual score for Brownsburg / Ben Davis was something like 67-10 (I would have to look it up, but BD only had Campbell win I think). What excuse do they have?  Does it not matter that Danville could compete with BD?  

[Y2CJ41]

I'd be careful to compare to IN basketball which has significantly lower attendance and participation than it did pre-class. Yes attendance has been rising slightly but it has still yet to approach even 60% of the fans they had the year prior to class. Participation in IN HS bball is dropping every year, so I don't see this as a equation to increasing participation in wrestling.

Basketball is a different beast in this state.  It is interesting how we always hear about class basketball "ruining" the sport here, yet we don't hear that about softball, baseball, volleyball, etc.

Fair question...and the same way that anyone else does.  As a coach you go sell your program.  You build upon small incremental steps.

 

Logan Boe seemed to do OK for Danville.  Build on that.  I see quite a few Cascade kids at Red Cobra.  I suspect there may be more at Contenders.  Develop your future.  Beg and borrow kids and make it meaningful.  Get buy in from the football coach that you're going to build better athletes together.    

 

And oh btw, the dual score for Brownsburg / Ben Davis was something like 67-10 (I would have to look it up, but BD only had Campbell win I think). What excuse do they have?  Does it not matter that Danville could compete with BD?  

Danville has recently had state champions and placers within the past five years.

 

Brownsburg also beat #4 Portage 42-9, what's their problem?

[Kookie953]

Basketball is a different beast in this state.  It is interesting how we always hear about class basketball "ruining" the sport here, yet we don't hear that about softball, baseball, volleyball, etc.

Danville has recently had state champions and placers within the past five years.

 

Brownsburg also beat #4 Portage 42-9, what's their problem?

 

So that's what you latch on to?  LOL.  You ignore the "hard part" about building your program to compete with anyone and instead pull out a score?

 

Anyway, I have to get back to work.  Have fun.

[base]

How do you expect say a school like Danville or Cascade to build a program when they have a sectional dominated by the likes of Brownsburg and Avon? How do they build excitement around their program when they are getting beat 72-3 by the big dawgs and birds.

 

That's just it -- you don't expect Danville or Cascade to necessarily have a program equal to that of Brownsburg or Avon. But, you can get Danville/Cascade kids to train with Brownsburg and Avon in the offseason (I'm sure their clubs are very open) and build some great individual wrestlers that can possibly battle their way to the state tournament because it's INDIVIDUAL

 

As for the program/team -- they are in luck because they have the IHSWCA Team state championship where they can participate as a 1A or 2A school and win team honors which they can bring back and use to recruit more kids

 

But, there you run into an issue as offseason for the small school kids may involve them playing another sport due to the very nature of a small school with a limited pool of athletes. So which is it - specialize like some of the larger schools have the luxury of doing, or encourage the small school environment of 3 sport athletes?

Here's an incredibly simple solution.  Much as the ISWA saw the market for a Freshman/Sophomore tournament just after the high school season, how about there is a "SMALL SCHOOL" individual ISWA tournament only for those from schools below a specific enrollment. They could even structure it the same way -- regional qualifiers and seed the small school wrestlers that do go onto semistate/state automatically into the finals.

 

It's the best of both worlds -- kids that are interested can still get the medal and have it on their resume.  Kids that aren't interested can move on to other sports.  Team state is still there for small schools to complete as a team against similar schools.

[Y2CJ41]

So that's what you latch on to?  LOL.  You ignore the "hard part" about building your program to compete with anyone and instead pull out a score?

 

Anyway, I have to get back to work.  Have fun.

So you can't answer it, that's fine. I understand you think based off of a dual score that Portage and Ben Davis are horrible programs.

 

 

That's just it -- you don't expect Danville or Cascade to necessarily have a program equal to that of Brownsburg or Avon. But, you can get Danville/Cascade kids to train with Brownsburg and Avon in the offseason (I'm sure their clubs are very open) and build some great individual wrestlers that can possibly battle their way to the state tournament because it's INDIVIDUAL

 

As for the program/team -- they are in luck because they have the IHSWCA Team state championship where they can participate as a 1A or 2A school and win team honors which they can bring back and use to recruit more kids

 

But, there you run into an issue as offseason for the small school kids may involve them playing another sport due to the very nature of a small school with a limited pool of athletes. So which is it - specialize like some of the larger schools have the luxury of doing, or encourage the small school environment of 3 sport athletes?

When you start encouraging kids to specialize at a small school it gets really ugly, REALLY fast. I can tell you from experience that if you want to build a program at a small school, encouraging your kids to quit spring and fall sports is the worst way to do it. You will make yourself the enemy of the rest of the coaches and they will work against you like no other.

[Westforkwhite]

Basketball is a different beast in this state.  It is interesting how we always hear about class basketball "ruining" the sport here, yet we don't hear that about softball, baseball, volleyball, etc.

Absolutely, BBall is a different beast, but it was King for nearly a century. Now football is King, and classing the sport had a major impact on that (see the 45% attendance drop in the first year of class) How big of a crowd has softball or baseball ever drawn? So IHSAA wrestling tournament (which set another attendance record this year) is a different beast than those sports which had only marginal fan interest prior to classing.