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Class Wrestling - Participation


Westforkwhite

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Reasons the qualifiers are closely attached to enrollments

1. No wrestle-backs so our true state qualifiers are hindered by a draw.

2. Big schools are handicapped by only having 14 entries, many JV kids at these schools could be knocking the smaller school kids out earlier in the tournament

3. Regionals are made up of mostly same size schools. This produces more semi-state champions from those similar sized schools and better chances for a draw...see #1

 

I know you hate facts, but...

 

4th place finishers by class

 

3A 34 of 140 24.3%

2A 14 of 62 22.6%

1A 8 of 22 36.4%

 

I'd tend to think those would be the ones most affected by a classed system.

OKAY!!! " LET'S KEEP INDIANA WRESTLING CLASSLESS!!!!"

 

 

Who want's to market these shirts???

There were already buttons made about 10 years ago.

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Not that my two cents matter but being a coach at a small school I know my kids love the system the way it is. My kids want to compete against the best, if they are going to be crowned the best. Now we haven't reached the goals at our school we want, but that is not due to a single class system. It is due to the other guy being better. If changing to a multi class system ups numbers because kids joined that wouldn't have otherwise....do we really want kids whose heart wasn't in it unless the path was easier to represent the sport? The beauty of wrestling is that it is "classed" by "weight" and if you lose or win it is due to your work not the system.

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Not that my two cents matter but being a coach at a small school I know my kids love the system the way it is. My kids want to compete against the best, if they are going to be crowned the best. Now we haven't reached the goals at our school we want, but that is not due to a single class system. It is due to the other guy being better. If changing to a multi class system ups numbers because kids joined that wouldn't have otherwise....do we really want kids whose heart wasn't in it unless the path was easier to represent the sport? The beauty of wrestling is that it is "classed" by "weight" and if you lose or win it is due to your work not the system.

Seems a lot of the small schools feel that way and the bigger schools want class. Could it be to open up more qualifier spots that would otherwise be taken by 1 and 2A wrestlers? Just pondering the reasoning behind the support.

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I know you hate facts, but...

 

4th place finishers by class

 

3A 34 of 140 24.3%

2A 14 of 62 22.6%

1A 8 of 22 36.4%

 

I'd tend to think those would be the ones most affected by a classed system.

There were already buttons made about 10 years ago.

 

so these numbers going to help who ?

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Not that my two cents matter but being a coach at a small school I know my kids love the system the way it is. My kids want to compete against the best, if they are going to be crowned the best. Now we haven't reached the goals at our school we want, but that is not due to a single class system. It is due to the other guy being better. If changing to a multi class system ups numbers because kids joined that wouldn't have otherwise....do we really want kids whose heart wasn't in it unless the path was easier to represent the sport? The beauty of wrestling is that it is "classed" by "weight" and if you lose or win it is due to your work not the system.

So you would just drop the program if we went to class wrestling? 

Seems a lot of the small schools feel that way and the bigger schools want class. Could it be to open up more qualifier spots that would otherwise be taken by 1 and 2A wrestlers? Just pondering the reasoning behind the support.

More small schools want class wrestling than big schools. You tend to forget I have been at a small school and at a big school. I have seen both ends of the spectrum and had success at both ends too.

 

The big schools LOVE beating up on the small ones and getting easy sectional championships. That is why it was so hard to go to class basketball because coaches jobs were secure when they won 20+ straight sectionals against their smaller neighbors.

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If classing wresting happened, I think as fans, we'd all make the best of it. I've seen the IHSA wrestling state finals on television because I live in the Chicago land area, it's not the same as our state championship matches, this isn't an argument in any way, but we do have something special. Sometimes you need to be careful about what you ask for. The trend in IHSA is for schools to bump up and wrestle in the big class. Over the last 2 years, Mt. Carmel, and Marian Catholic made the choice to go up to chase the stiffer competition. I applaud those programs for doing this. There are small inner city schools like Bowen HS that lack the resources and family commitment to compete with the big boys, so it's nice for them to have a 1a tournament and get rewarded. During the year Bowen does wrestle the 3a schools to test their metal, and are typically outclassed, but do manage a win here and there. If we did class, 2 classes would be more than enough in my opinion, seeing the watered down 3 classes in Illinois is too much for me to stomach. This discussion never really goes anywhere and I don't foresee the state classing wrestling so it's really a mute point. I love our tournament for selfish reasons, but don't mind helping the little guys with a 1a tournament if it happened.

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so these numbers going to help who ?

I forgot facts don't faze you. What was a I thinking.

 

Here are some more facts

There are 20 schools that have yet to have a state qualifier, 18 from 1A, 2 from 2A....believe it or not, none from 3A

Guerin Catholic 2A

Salem 2A

Attica 1A

Carroll (Flora) 1A

Covington 1A

Cowan 1A

Crawford County 1A

Faith Christian 1A

Hebron 1A

Indiana Deaf 1A

Indianapolis Lutheran 1A

Lapel 1A

Mitchell 1A

North Judson 1A

North Putnam 1A

Paoli 1A

Switzerland County 1A

Tri 1A

Tri County 1A

Westview 1A

 

Since 2000

1A 73 of 102 schools have had a state qualifier

2A 94 of 102 schools have had a state qualifier

3A 99 of 101 schools have had a state qualifier

 

Since 2008(10 years)

1A 59 of 102 schools have had a state qualifier

2A 88 of 102 schools have had a state qualifier

3A 96 of 101 schools have had a state qualifier

 

Everything is fine, nothing to see here.

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If classing wresting happened, I think as fans, we'd all make the best of it. I've seen the IHSA wrestling state finals on television because I live in the Chicago land area, it's not the same as our state championship matches, this isn't an argument in any way, but we do have something special. Sometimes you need to be careful about what you ask for. The trend in IHSA is for schools to bump up and wrestle in the big class. Over the last 2 years, Mt. Carmel, and Marian Catholic made the choice to go up to chase the stiffer competition. I applaud those programs for doing this. There are small inner city schools like Bowen HS that lack the resources and family commitment to compete with the big boys, so it's nice for them to have a 1a tournament and get rewarded. During the year Bowen does wrestle the 3a schools to test their metal, and are typically outclassed, but do manage a win here and there. If we did class, 2 classes would be more than enough in my opinion, seeing the watered down 3 classes in Illinois is too much for me to stomach. This discussion never really goes anywhere and I don't foresee the state classing wrestling so it's really a mute point. I love our tournament for selfish reasons, but don't mind helping the little guys with a 1a tournament if it happened.

Having the option for either team or individual to bump up to a specific class in state tourneys is something I could get behind. If some kids and coaches want to compete at a 1A level then alright but I don't feel some kids should be left behind bc the rest of the team doesn't want to move up classes to compete. And to Joe I can understand that in other sports but I feel why we have going on in Indiana at the moment is nice. Classed team state and classless individual. Schools enrollment definitely can play a part in success for the simple fact of statistics. More kids=a greater chance of having athletic, dedicated, etc. kids. It takes supportive and involved coaches and a good program but the numbers tend to have a favorable outcome.

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No, just thought I would throw out my thoughts on it.

 

You don't agree with Y2 so you aren't allowed to do that without getting jabbed back. All these statistics mean nothing, the bantering=nothing. At the end of the day those in favor of one class will most likely stay in favor and those against will stay against.

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Just out of curiosity, Joe do you have any attendance numbers from states that are close to our size that have class wrestling? Not that it would be a deciding factor, but I just would like to see some comparisons.

From last year's Wisconsin tournament

The three-day attendance total was 39,456, including a tournament-record 13,966 on Saturday.

 

Y2, just out of curiosity for my knowldge is this something actually gaining traction and going to possibly change or is this just going to be something for all of us to debate?

I think it's closer to happening than people realize. The IHSAA Has stated that they really think adding the 6th class to football was beneficial. There have been other individual sports that have proposed classed state tournament recently also.

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I forgot facts don't faze you. What was a I thinking. Here are some more factsThere are 20 schools that have yet to have a state qualifier, 18 from 1A, 2 from 2A....believe it or not, none from 3AGuerin Catholic 2ASalem 2AAttica 1ACarroll (Flora) 1ACovington 1ACowan 1ACrawford County 1AFaith Christian 1AHebron 1AIndiana Deaf 1AIndianapolis Lutheran 1ALapel 1AMitchell 1ANorth Judson 1ANorth Putnam 1APaoli 1ASwitzerland County 1ATri 1ATri County 1AWestview 1A Since 20001A 73 of 102 schools have had a state qualifier2A 94 of 102 schools have had a state qualifier3A 99 of 101 schools have had a state qualifierSince 2008(10 years)1A 59 of 102 schools have had a state qualifier2A 88 of 102 schools have had a state qualifier3A 96 of 101 schools have had a state qualifierEverything is fine, nothing to see here.

...again this isnt out of line with the students represented. My bet is several of these teams won't have qualifiers 10 years into a class system either.

 

If the goal is to improve participation why is all the focus on 1A? Shouldn't we direct our attention were the ROI is best? I'm saying to continue to explore ideas that expand 1A participation, but there is limited potential to ultimately increase total numbers beyond a few hundred kids. Let's discuss how class wrestling would impact our 2A & 3A schools. If we have any real hope of getting back to 9-10k kids statewide we need to push numbers in the schools that make up 88% of the student population.

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All of the statistics are nice and all. As a mathematics teacher I should appreciate them more.  But mathematically speaking, even if you show a correlation it does not mean a causation.  MY OPINION is that the decline is wrestling numbers has to do with several factors that we probably don't have statistical evidence for.  I do not think single v. multi-class is significant. Here are 2 factors that I think are contributing:

  1. Despite all our societal lip service to things like grit, persistence and personal accountability, these are on the decline in actual practice.  Since wrestling has a high demand for all of these, it is not surprising to me that fewer kids are interested.
  2. Increase in other sports and the ability to do those sports year round.

 

I think your absolutely correct, and I would also add, many schools have trimmed their physical education time way down, to fit in other mandated classes. This makes for a lot of kids who are not physically fit for much  of anything, let alone the demands of wrestling. 

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I appreciate the original posters attempt to keep a focused discussion. As usual it's muddied with comparisons to team sports such as basketball and football. We have a classed team championship, which doesn't seem to have anyone against it so those comparisons are moot.

 

Further, focusing on participation numbers, is the primary goal to get more kids out for wrestling in general, more kids so that sectional forfeits are decreased, or does "participation" somehow equate to a larger number of placers by small schools?

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...again this isnt out of line with the students represented. My bet is several of these teams won't have qualifiers 10 years into a class system either.

 

If the goal is to improve participation why is all the focus on 1A? Shouldn't we direct our attention were the ROI is best? I'm saying to continue to explore ideas that expand 1A participation, but there is limited potential to ultimately increase total numbers beyond a few hundred kids. Let's discuss how class wrestling would impact our 2A & 3A schools. If we have any real hope of getting back to 9-10k kids statewide we need to push numbers in the schools that make up 88% of the student population.

Considering there are 400 open spots at the 1A level vs. 100 at the 3A level, we can get a very good ROI on the small schools. Once there is even a little success at a school that has had very little success the positive attention brought to the program will result in many more new people exposed to the sport. I'm sure there are many people in Shenandoah that made their first trip to semi-state and state the past couple weeks due to their success. Those people will now tell their friends and family about the experience and even talk to the young boys they see about the fun they had.

 

84 of the 3A schools have had a state placer in the last 10 years, while only 29 of the small schools have. 

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I appreciate the original posters attempt to keep a focused discussion. As usual it's muddied with comparisons to team sports such as basketball and football. We have a classed team championship, which doesn't seem to have anyone against it so those comparisons are moot.

 

Further, focusing on participation numbers, is the primary goal to get more kids out for wrestling in general, more kids so that sectional forfeits are decreased, or does "participation" somehow equate to a larger number of placers by small schools?

If more kids are wrestling at small schools won't they have more chances for a state qualifier/placer? Right now there are over 400 forfeits at the 1A level. Participation numbers are obviously hurting at the small school level when the teams average 4 forfeits per team.  Only 18 out of 103 1A teams have a full lineup, with 71 having 3 or more forfeits.

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If more kids are wrestling at small schools won't they have more chances for a state qualifier/placer? Right now there are over 400 forfeits at the 1A level. Participation numbers are obviously hurting at the small school level when the teams average 4 forfeits per team. Only 18 out of 103 1A teams have a full lineup, with 71 having 3 or more forfeits.

Do you have the number of schools by class that would have 7+ weight classes filled?

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I forgot facts don't faze you. What was a I thinking.

 

Here are some more facts

There are 20 schools that have yet to have a state qualifier, 18 from 1A, 2 from 2A....believe it or not, none from 3A

Guerin Catholic 2A

Salem 2A

Attica 1A

Carroll (Flora) 1A

Covington 1A

Cowan 1A

Crawford County 1A

Faith Christian 1A

Hebron 1A

Indiana Deaf 1A

Indianapolis Lutheran 1A

Lapel 1A

Mitchell 1A

North Judson 1A

North Putnam 1A

Paoli 1A

Switzerland County 1A

Tri 1A

Tri County 1A

Westview 1A

 

Since 2000

1A 73 of 102 schools have had a state qualifier

2A 94 of 102 schools have had a state qualifier

3A 99 of 101 schools have had a state qualifier

 

Since 2008(10 years)

1A 59 of 102 schools have had a state qualifier

2A 88 of 102 schools have had a state qualifier

3A 96 of 101 schools have had a state qualifier

 

Everything is fine, nothing to see here.

How does that apply with placing. As we can see from this weekend only about 1/2 the schools with qualifiers advanced to day 2. (Not busting balls here, legitimate question)

 

With random draws and no wrestle backs, I'm wondering if these numbers are a little misleading.

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If more kids are wrestling at small schools won't they have more chances for a state qualifier/placer? Right now there are over 400 forfeits at the 1A level. Participation numbers are obviously hurting at the small school level when the teams average 4 forfeits per team.  Only 18 out of 103 1A teams have a full lineup, with 71 having 3 or more forfeits.

Possibly, but I don't believe that classing wrestling is the solution to get more participation

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