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The dual meet between Mich St & Rutgers was actually this past weekend but I just watched it last night. Hughes is having a very nice freshman season for the Spartans. Can't remember what they showed his record is (can someone post it) but it is very impressive.

 

The interesting part from his match was he won 1-0, but his one point didn't come by escape. The score was 0-0 after 1 period & his opponent chose neutral to avoid going underneath him, 0-0 after two. Then instead of choosing down, Hughes chose top & road his opponent out for the 1-0 victory on a riding point. The commentators commented how he has had several shutout victories this year. Very impressive for a true freshman to be that tough on top against D1 opponents.

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That match was one of the reasons I don't like riding time much.  No offense to Hughes, he is and incredibly tough rider with those legs.  But I never got the sense that he was looking to turn the guy.  Just rode him for he sake of riding him.  You see that a lot in college.  Once they secure the riding time point they tend to open up a bit more.  Not a real exciting match to say the least.  But, for a freshman to ride college kids like that is impressive.

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That match was one of the reasons I don't like riding time much.  No offense to Hughes, he is and incredibly tough rider with those legs.  But I never got the sense that he was looking to turn the guy.  Just rode him for he sake of riding him.  You see that a lot in college.  Once they secure the riding time point they tend to open up a bit more.  Not a real exciting match to say the least.  But, for a freshman to ride college kids like that is impressive.

 

Which match, Rutgers or Illinois?  Against Martinez, I think it was more self preservation than anything else! Martinez was putting on a take down clinic in the first period. But I agree with your point.

 

Drew is an amazing kid and wrestler. IMO he's at an all-american level as a top wrestler, but a red shirt year really would have helped him improve on his feet. I think Drew is well on his way to becoming the face of the MSU program.  

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Which match, Rutgers or Illinois?  Against Martinez, I think it was more self preservation than anything else! Martinez was putting on a take down clinic in the first period. But I agree with your point.

 

Drew is an amazing kid and wrestler. IMO he's at an all-american level as a top wrestler, but a red shirt year really would have helped him improve on his feet. I think Drew is well on his way to becoming the face of the MSU program.  

I was referring to the Rutgers match.  I totally agree that he is at an all-american level with his top game.  If he can improve on his feet, look out.  The Rutgers kid made a wise decision in the 2nd period by choosing neutral, knowing that was his best shot to score.

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The word is out and opponents are avoiding being underneath him as much as they can. Very, very rare for any true freshman to be such a hammer on top, especially being from Indiana. It's almost scary to project how nasty he'll be as an upperclassman

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Hughes is an absolute animal on top. I personally like the riding time. If you can't score off bottom, can't score a takedown or ride someone out, your don't deserve to win.

 

I like the riding time rule as well. But to MD92's point, should a top wrestler be allowed to ride without any real attempt to score by turning their opponent or should stalling be called? This is the old parallel ride debate that frequently comes up even in HS wrestling.

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I like the riding time rule as well. But to MD92's point, should a top wrestler be allowed to ride without any real attempt to score by turning their opponent or should stalling be called? This is the old parallel ride debate that frequently comes up even in HS wrestling.

 

It's the bottom man's job to get out. I like the riding time rule and find it completely absurd to ever hit the top man for stalling when both wrestlers are on the mat. I'm still not sure how I feel about the five count when the top man drops to a leg though.

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It's the bottom man's job to get out.

And it's the top man's job to turn. If either isn't doing his job, it's stalling.

 

There's nothing more boring than watching a parallel ride for 2 minutes while the whistle is stuck down the official's throat. I commend Hughes and Jason Tsirtsis for mastering the game, but man it's not my favorite version of the sport to watch if it's just guys I'm watching in hopes of a good match.

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And it's the top man's job to turn. If either isn't doing his job, it's stalling.

 

There's nothing more boring than watching a parallel ride for 2 minutes while the whistle is stuck down the official's throat. I commend Hughes and Jason Tsirtsis for mastering the game, but man it's not my favorite version of the sport to watch if it's just guys I'm watching in hopes of a good match.

 

I agree, it can be very boring and it's not my favorite version of the sport to watch either. But if I'm the top man and have a comfortable lead I'd just assume stay in control if I can. Right? Why create action if I don't need it?

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Think of it from a viewership perspective, a how do we grow the sport perspective, or a grandma knows nothing about wrestling will see sit in a gym a watch a kid she doesnt know ride another kid? 

 

Think from the how is wrestling going to survive moving forward.... less on one match or one kid perspective. 

 

Obviously Hughes is a beast and should continue to do what he does to win. 

 

But as a sport what we do to grow? 

How do we gain fans? 

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I agree, it can be very boring and it's not my favorite version of the sport to watch either. But if I'm the top man and have a comfortable lead I'd just assume stay in control if I can. Right? Why create action if I don't need it?

 

Not trying to call you out, but what you're saying is that if you are ahead then stalling is a legit strategy. And if that is what you believe than you should also believe that a wrestler should be allowed to stall from any position.

 

To say a wrestler can be called for stalling from the down & neutral positions but never from the top position is extremely ambiguous to me. Stalling is stalling, no matter how or from which position.

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Not trying to call you out, but what you're saying is that if you are ahead then stalling is a legit strategy. And if that is what you believe than you should also believe that a wrestler should be allowed to stall from any position.

 

To say a wrestler can be called for stalling from the down & neutral positions but never from the top position is extremely ambiguous to me. Stalling is stalling, no matter how or from which position.

 

No. That's not what I'm saying.

 

If I'm ahead and on top, I have to assume the bottom man, the wrestler that needs to score points, is trying to get out. Yes, riding him is a legit strategy.

 

I was giving my thoughts on the top man being called for stalling because he's not "looking to turn".

You brought the bottom and neutral positions into the discussion.

 

Stalling is a judgement call made by the official. It's always "ambiguous".

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Hughes has turned a bunch of opponents this season and pinned a large number of his foes. Tsirtsis is a good rider and excellent bottom man, but he's not the same kind of rider Hughes is. He's already one of the better hammers on top in the country

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A football team up 3 touchdowns goes into a prevent defense, and runs the ball to milk the clock when on offense.

 

A boxer/MMA fighter is clearly ahead on the judges scorecards dials it back in the later rounds of a fight. 

 

A soccer team up 2 goals drops an extra player onto the defensive side of the field and plays keep away. 

 

A basketball team will use more shot clock to lengthen their own possessions, thus limiting their opponents. 

 

Stalling is essentially an acceptable "tactic" in other sports. Why not wrestling (not my personal opinion, just trying to spur conversation)?  The easy answer for stalling on the mat is to put them on their feet. 

Edited by vito pepperelli
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No. That's not what I'm saying.

 

If I'm ahead and on top, I have to assume the bottom man, the wrestler that needs to score points, is trying to get out. Yes, riding him is a legit strategy.

 

I was giving my thoughts on the top man being called for stalling because he's not "looking to turn".

You brought the bottom and neutral positions into the discussion.

 

Stalling is a judgement call made by the official. It's always "ambiguous".

Again, not trying to offend you or anyone else just attempting to understand others view point and promote constructive conversation.

 

So, riding just to ride is legit wrestling action not stalling - OK.

 

How about if a wrestler is presenting himself in the neutral position but only blocking & not trying to score. Is this legit action or stalling?

 

Now if you are in the down position & not trying to escape but only trying to not be turned, is it stalling or legit wrestling action?

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No offense taken. All good.

 

Neutral. As long as you're presenting yourself and not fleeing, you're okay.

 

Bottom. If you're "balling up" you're not presenting yourself. Yes, that's stalling.

Edited by B. Alan
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A football team up 3 touchdowns goes into a prevent defense, and runs the ball to milk the clock when on offense.

 

A boxer/MMA fighter is clearly ahead on the judges scorecards dials it back in the later rounds of a fight. 

 

A soccer team up 2 goals drops an extra player onto the defensive side of the field and plays keep away. 

 

A basketball team will use more shot clock to lengthen their own possessions, thus limiting their opponents. 

 

Stalling is essentially an acceptable "tactic" in other sports. Why not wrestling (not my personal opinion, just trying to spur conversation)?  The easy answer for stalling on the mat is to put them on their feet. 

Good point, yes stalling is allowed in many sports. But it is not supposed to be allowed in Wrestling. And it is very subjective on exactly what is & isn't stalling.

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Good point, yes stalling is allowed in many sports. But it is not supposed to be allowed in Wrestling. And it is very subjective on exactly what is & isn't stalling.

 

Exactly.  Rules ideally should be objective.  Therefore, folkstyle wrestling needs to find a way to eliminate/reduce the subjectivity of the stalling call.  Good luck  :)

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Exactly.  Rules ideally should be objective.  Therefore, folkstyle wrestling needs to find a way to eliminate/reduce the subjectivity of the stalling call.  Good luck  :)

 

Shot clock point.

Push out point.

If nothing is happening on the mat, stand them up.

 

^^that might help.

 

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