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InterMat Update January 11


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12 at 132 Breyden Bailey - Cathedral

  9 at 145 Brayton Lee - Brownsburg

  6 at 152 Joe Lee - EMD

17 at 160 Brad Laughlin - Yorktown

  8 at 195 Andrew Davison - Chesterton

18 at 195 Tristan Tonte - WC

  3 at 220 Mason Parris - Lawrenceburg

  7 at 220 Gunnar Larson - AV 

 

Tough week on our IN kids. only 8 this week. 

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After all the big national Holiday Tournaments some new names come out of the woodwork and usually make the national rankings list.  The unfortunately side effect of this is that it pushes some of IN's lower ranked wrestlers out, since our wrestlers have no chance to attend these to prove their worth.  Doing well in the major off season tournaments is really the only time we will see IN wrestlers move up any national rankings.  Baring any ranked vs. ranked instate/boarder-state matches, during the school year our guys typically move down in ranking or if we get lucky they remain at their pre-season spot.

Edited by MattM
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Parris lost to Schultz in a regulation 2-2-2 match. He defeated Schultz in a shortened match.  On top of that Schultz has placings at many top national events. Parris does not have the resume Schultz has and it really comes down to resume when doing national rankings.

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Parris lost to Schultz in a regulation 2-2-2 match. He defeated Schultz in a shortened match. On top of that Schultz has placings at many top national events. Parris does not have the resume Schultz has and it really comes down to resume when doing national rankings.

Edited by Brey
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After all the big national Holiday Tournaments some new names come out of the woodwork and usually make the national rankings list.  The unfortunately side effect of this is that it pushes some of IN's lower ranked wrestlers out, since our wrestlers have no chance to attend these to prove their worth.  Doing well in the major off season tournaments is really the only time we will see IN wrestlers move up any national rankings.  Baring any ranked vs. ranked instate/boarder-state matches, during the school year our guys typically move down in ranking or if we get lucky they remain at their pre-season spot.

 

Big travesty to our Indiana wrestlers... no Beast of the East, no Reno Tournament of Champions, etc. ... missing out on competition and opportunities to get better - it's just not right.   <_<

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Even if the travel restrictions were removed, how many of our programs would go, or even be invited, to those tournaments?  I would say less than 5 per year, if that.

 

Teams from IN rarely schedule out of state competition within the travel restrictions as it is now.

Edited by MD92
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After all the big national Holiday Tournaments some new names come out of the woodwork and usually make the national rankings list.  The unfortunately side effect of this is that it pushes some of IN's lower ranked wrestlers out, since our wrestlers have no chance to attend these to prove their worth.  Doing well in the major off season tournaments is really the only time we will see IN wrestlers move up any national rankings.  Baring any ranked vs. ranked instate/boarder-state matches, during the school year our guys typically move down in ranking or if we get lucky they remain at their pre-season spot.

In Ellis's case, it looks like an Oklahoma kid did well in their big tournament that national #1 Blair Academy and some other top teams attend. He moved in at #16 and Ellis got dropped. Stewart actually seems to have gotten dropped in part because of Tonte. Tonte and another guy previously ranked at 220 were moved down to 195 at the expense of Stewart and someone else.

Edited by maligned
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Parris stuck shultz when he won tho im pretty sure

Based on their career resumes Schultz should be ahead of Parris. Schultz has wrestled in many of the top events and won most if not all of them. Parris has not been to many off-season events and thus his ranking suffers due to it. Head to head factors in, but at the end of the day it's a lot of what you have done on the national circuit more than some head to head wins.

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Based on their career resumes Schultz should be ahead of Parris. Schultz has wrestled in many of the top events and won most if not all of them. Parris has not been to many off-season events and thus his ranking suffers due to it. Head to head factors in, but at the end of the day it's a lot of what you have done on the national circuit more than some head to head wins.Parris

Parris did pin Schultz last time they wrestled, and was up in points!   Have to agree with Y2J41, Schultz should be ahead in polls.  Parris does 3 sports!  Schultz trains at the Olympic center, big difference.  If Mason decides to wrestle in college then we will see!!!!!  Good Luck to all the wrestlers ranked, and to all those trying to make the rankings.  It is a privilege to be considered.   

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Is mason leaning towards football? I seen him and Lburg had a great season in football this year.

Thanks a lot!  He doesn't  know yet.  He is still deciding. He is keeping all his options open. He has had a few offers, waiting until his senior year.

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Even if the travel restrictions were removed, how many of our programs would go, or even be invited, to those tournaments? I would say less than 5 per year, if that.

 

Teams from IN rarely schedule out of state competition within the travel restrictions as it is now.

Yeah I doubt we would see a ton of out of state if tournament. But I bet we would see a few tough Region teams attend a decent multi-state tournament in Michigan/Wisconsin/N. Illinois. Of a good Ft. Wayne or eastern Indiana team venture over to a multi-state central Ohio tournament. Evansiville area could pick up a Multi-state event in Missouri or S. Illinois. I'm pretty sure a Griffith team or Evansville MD team from the early 2000 would have got an invite to a decently major event (if they wanted to go. Or more recently a few of our top #TheCounty or Indy schools could get some attention. Not all the big events but it still better exposure and more chances to face nationally ranked kids than we currently have.

 

 

While those are not all going to be the major events you listed, the event would result in more chances for our team to match up against other nationally ranked studs. But as it stands right now if just one of those teams came from outside the travel zone then we don't end up going to the event since it would result in the IN kid having to FF in that match.

 

The travel limit for IN teams is fine with me. However it's just dumb that our team are not getting a chance to compete in some good events due to be distance other teams have to travel.

Edited by MattM
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In Ellis's case, it looks like an Oklahoma kid did well in their big tournament that national #1 Blair Academy and some other top teams attend. He moved in at #16 and Ellis got dropped. Stewart actually seems to have gotten dropped in part because of Tonte. Tonte and another guy previously ranked at 220 were moved down to 195 at the expense of Stewart and someone else.

Yeah I forgot to mention weight class shifts. Those will sometimes help move IN guys up during the season too.

 

Thanks for doing the legwork and identifying why some guys moves out. It's helpful to know what the details are.

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Parris did pin Schultz last time they wrestled, and was up in points!   Have to agree with Y2J41, Schultz should be ahead in polls.  Parris does 3 sports!  Schultz trains at the Olympic center, big difference.  If Mason decides to wrestle in college then we will see!!!!!  Good Luck to all the wrestlers ranked, and to all those trying to make the rankings.  It is a privilege to be considered.   

I watched that match with my own eyes. Mason is great!

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I agree with Matt, the 600 mile thing is fine for Indiana teams, but who cares how far other teams traveled to a tournament, not really sure what the thinking was behind that in the first place.  Props to Brownsburg for maintaining their #25 national team ranking, it is definitely deserved and is probably too low.  Detroit Catholic Central #18 was beaten pretty handily in a dual by Portage last year.  The team rankings are pretty arbitrary but have a lot to do with having nationally ranked individuals and who you compete against.  It would be nice if Indiana teams could play host to the country in one or more in season scholastic events, we need to do something to make this happen.  

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Yeah I doubt we would see a ton of out of state if tournament. But I bet we would see a few tough Region teams attend a decent multi-state tournament in Michigan/Wisconsin/N. Illinois. Of a good Ft. Wayne or eastern Indiana team venture over to a multi-state central Ohio tournament. Evansiville area could pick up a Multi-state event in Missouri or S. Illinois. I'm pretty sure a Griffith team or Evansville MD team from the early 2000 would have got an invite to a decently major event (if they wanted to go. Or more recently a few of our top #TheCounty or Indy schools could get some attention. Not all the big events but it still better exposure and more chances to face nationally ranked kids than we currently have.

 

 

While those are not all going to be the major events you listed, the event would result in more chances for our team to match up against other nationally ranked studs. But as it stands right now if just one of those teams came from outside the travel zone then we don't end up going to the event since it would result in the IN kid having to FF in that match.

 

The travel limit for IN teams is fine with me. However it's just dumb that our team are not getting a chance to compete in some good events due to be distance other teams have to travel.

Those teams you mentioned still have opportunities to travel to our neighboring states to see different competition.  I'll use MD as an example.  They used to go to Cincy for a tournament, they got to St. Louis, used to go to Nashville, been to OH to wrestle St. Paris Graham and St. Ed's (late 80's when the wrestled Ed's), they host teams from KY and IL.

 

Region teams could easily schedule good teams from the chicago area or go up into Michigan.  Other teams could head east into Ohio.

 

There are opportunities out there that as a state I don't think we fully take advantage of.

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Based on their career resumes Schultz should be ahead of Parris. Schultz has wrestled in many of the top events and won most if not all of them. Parris has not been to many off-season events and thus his ranking suffers due to it. Head to head factors in, but at the end of the day it's a lot of what you have done on the national circuit more than some head to head wins.

This is generally true, but Willie at Flo and others have flat out stated that they just ignore shortened matches entirely because there are too many variables to consider.  For example...yes, it was a pin, but was there an early takedown that forced Schultz to press more than normal because he knows time is limited, and did that lead to the pin?  That doesn't seem to be the case, but rather than have to dig into the psyche of every match like that, they just throw out those tournaments completely, unfortunately.  All other results remaining the same, I think if Parris had beaten Schultz the first time; even with less overall national credentials, I'm guessing he'd be slotted ahead of him based on the "true" head-to-head.

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Those teams you mentioned still have opportunities to travel to our neighboring states to see different competition.  I'll use MD as an example.  They used to go to Cincy for a tournament, they got to St. Louis, used to go to Nashville, been to OH to wrestle St. Paris Graham and St. Ed's (late 80's when the wrestled Ed's), they host teams from KY and IL.

 

Region teams could easily schedule good teams from the chicago area or go up into Michigan.  Other teams could head east into Ohio.

 

There are opportunities out there that as a state I don't think we fully take advantage of.

Yes they can travel next door at be within the travel limits.  Sure that does open up for some good neighbor competition, but they are limited in which events (especially tournaments) in those states they could attend due to other top teams that could possibly be be invited.  

 

Your examples of travel are great and I agree in some cases we could take advantage of it more.  But some of those trip are hard to justify to the coaching staff, parents, and administration if you only end up seeing one top national team there due to a few of the other team traveling too far.  At an Illinois event in addition to some good Illinois teams, solid teams from Iowa, Minnesota, Missouri could travel to Illinois for an event but due to the travel restrictions we may not be able to attend (again especially tournaments) if one of the teams is outside the distance.  At an Ohio event in addition to some good Ohio teams, solid teams from Pennsylvania, New York, and Maryland could attend but for the same reasons and IN team would have to decline.  

 

Again, yes its not most IN teams and its not completely shutting us out, but it is limited some of our better teams from being able to see what other top competition is out there and showcase some of the team and individual talent we have.  Just due to the simple fact those other teams are travel from someplace else.  

 

If the travel restriction was modified to exclude the distance of other teams, a top team like Brownsburg could be invited to a Illinois event that would actually a reasonable distance away.  And at that event Brownsburg could showcase their team and individual talent against a couple nationally ranked teams that came from Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota, and/or Michigan.  Since that event was able to bring in a couple big name schools the coaching staff and admin. could more easily justify the a out of state trip.  If they do well it is more likely they or the next big name team from Indiana will get a similar invited to a good out of state event in the future.  Plus, since the event is adding yet another big name team it is more likely other top national teams would be interested in attending that same event in the future as well.  Being limited by other state travel distances doesn't effect most teams but it does limit the chance for some of Indiana's top teams to test  their team and individual talent and get them and the whole state some more recognition or college recruiting attention.

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This is generally true, but Willie at Flo and others have flat out stated that they just ignore shortened matches entirely because there are too many variables to consider.  For example...yes, it was a pin, but was there an early takedown that forced Schultz to press more than normal because he knows time is limited, and did that lead to the pin?  That doesn't seem to be the case, but rather than have to dig into the psyche of every match like that, they just throw out those tournaments completely, unfortunately.  All other results remaining the same, I think if Parris had beaten Schultz the first time; even with less overall national credentials, I'm guessing he'd be slotted ahead of him based on the "true" head-to-head.

Schultz and Parris are 1-1 against eachother, even if Parris won the last match in a regulation 2-2-2 match my guess is Schultz would still be ahead of him based on the overall resume. 

 

I talked with Willie about Gelen Robinson a few years ago and he was hard to rank even though he was probably a top 10 guy. He only wrestled from November-February, so his credentials came from guys like Fletcher Miller having good results at national events. Parris is in a similar boat, but he has gone to a handful of events in the spring.

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Schultz and Parris are 1-1 against eachother, even if Parris won the last match in a regulation 2-2-2 match my guess is Schultz would still be ahead of him based on the overall resume. 

 

 

I see your point.

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Yes they can travel next door at be within the travel limits.  Sure that does open up for some good neighbor competition, but they are limited in which events (especially tournaments) in those states they could attend due to other top teams that could possibly be be invited.  

 

Your examples of travel are great and I agree in some cases we could take advantage of it more.  But some of those trip are hard to justify to the coaching staff, parents, and administration if you only end up seeing one top national team there due to a few of the other team traveling too far.  At an Illinois event in addition to some good Illinois teams, solid teams from Iowa, Minnesota, Missouri could travel to Illinois for an event but due to the travel restrictions we may not be able to attend (again especially tournaments) if one of the teams is outside the distance.  At an Ohio event in addition to some good Ohio teams, solid teams from Pennsylvania, New York, and Maryland could attend but for the same reasons and IN team would have to decline.  

 

Again, yes its not most IN teams and its not completely shutting us out, but it is limited some of our better teams from being able to see what other top competition is out there and showcase some of the team and individual talent we have.  Just due to the simple fact those other teams are travel from someplace else.  

 

If the travel restriction was modified to exclude the distance of other teams, a top team like Brownsburg could be invited to a Illinois event that would actually a reasonable distance away.  And at that event Brownsburg could showcase their team and individual talent against a couple nationally ranked teams that came from Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota, and/or Michigan.  Since that event was able to bring in a couple big name schools the coaching staff and admin. could more easily justify the a out of state trip.  If they do well it is more likely they or the next big name team from Indiana will get a similar invited to a good out of state event in the future.  Plus, since the event is adding yet another big name team it is more likely other top national teams would be interested in attending that same event in the future as well.  Being limited by other state travel distances doesn't effect most teams but it does limit the chance for some of Indiana's top teams to test  their team and individual talent and get them and the whole state some more recognition or college recruiting attention.

Remember, it is 300 miles border to border.  MD wrestled in the Cheesehead in WI several years ago.  I think the year MD wrested St. Paris Graham (2003), it was a dual format and they couldn't wrestle a team from WV, if I remember correctly.  If it had been an individual format they wouldn't have been able to participate.  To me, it is all about finding the right tournament and making sure the teams there are within 300 mi from the state line.  I think it just makes more sense to branch out (a little at a time if necessary) than to wrestle the same teams over and over in your pocket of the state.

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