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If this guy wins at freestyle OTTs, it means we have the best chance at a medal...POST-MORTEM


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Nobody is picking a champion, just a team member. Why not put the guy who has the best chance of winning on the mat?

 

How do you determine who is the "best" guy?  I was always under the impression that head to head was the best criteria? It is crazy to me how subjective criteria is being suggested in a sport beloved for its objective nature. 

 

Also, calling an athlete on the Olympic wrestling team a "member" understates the significance of the accomplishment.  For all intents and purposes, they're the United States champion. 

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The Russians apparently don't stick to a head to head criteria and they spank us.  Of course they have developed their program to such an extent where they could throw 2-3 different guys in the Olympics that would all do well.  So they may play more of a strategy of who would be the best match up with the other top contender at that weight?  It's kind of interesting to hear of different strategies from other countries.

 

Do any other countries pick their team like the Russians?  Iranians?  Mongolians? the stans?

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How do you determine who is the "best" guy?  I was always under the impression that head to head was the best criteria? It is crazy to me how subjective criteria is being suggested in a sport beloved for its objective nature. 

 

Also, calling an athlete on the Olympic wrestling team a "member" understates the significance of the accomplishment.  For all intents and purposes, they're the United States champion. 

 

When A beats B, B beats C, and C beats A...who is the best wrestler?

 

When you are talking about the nation's best the margin for error is razor thin. Molinaro won three matches that were TIED and he had criteria! 

 

The best way is to look at international and national achievements combined. It is far more useful to have a style that beats the World level competitors and not just the USA competitors. One good example is Nick Simmons. Here in the US people knew his style and had him scouted. Across the pond though he was very good because they had never seen his style.

 

It won't happen in the US, so don't worry.

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The Russians apparently don't stick to a head to head criteria and they spank us.  Of course they have developed their program to such an extent where they could throw 2-3 different guys in the Olympics that would all do well.  So they may play more of a strategy of who would be the best match up with the other top contender at that weight?  It's kind of interesting to hear of different strategies from other countries.

 

Do any other countries pick their team like the Russians?  Iranians?  Mongolians? the stans?

Do the Russians and Iranians have class wrestling and wrestlebacks?

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How do you determine who is the "best" guy?  I was always under the impression that head to head was the best criteria? It is crazy to me how subjective criteria is being suggested in a sport beloved for its objective nature. 

 

Also, calling an athlete on the Olympic wrestling team a "member" understates the significance of the accomplishment.  For all intents and purposes, they're the United States champion. 

 

I would say that a wrestler like Jordan Burroughs who continues to win championships both internationally and domestically is clearly our best guy right now. Two of the greatest wrestlers in NCAA history went up a weight to stay away from him. My opinion, is he should have been named to the team.  I'm not saying we should name an athlete for every weight just an individual like this who is clearly above the rest of the competition and has proven himself on the world level by winning championships.

At the 1992 Trials John Smith came dangerously close to losing to John Fisher in the final wrestle off. Smith had been battling a staph infection and Fisher was good and came close to beating him. Fisher was an excellent wrestler and an even better guy, but would not have won a gold medal in Barcelona as we all know Smith did.

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I would say that a wrestler like Jordan Burroughs who continues to win championships both internationally and domestically is clearly our best guy right now. Two of the greatest wrestlers in NCAA history went up a weight to stay away from him. My opinion, is he should have been named to the team.  I'm not saying we should name an athlete for every weight just an individual like this who is clearly above the rest of the competition and has proven himself on the world level by winning championships.

At the 1992 Trials John Smith came dangerously close to losing to John Fisher in the final wrestle off. Smith had been battling a staph infection and Fisher was good and came close to beating him. Fisher was an excellent wrestler and an even better guy, but would not have won a gold medal in Barcelona as we all know Smith did.

 

Point taken, so under your scenario what is the incentive for a guy like Andrew Howe to try? Furthermore, maybe Burroughs needs up and comers to stay on top of his game instead of it being handed to him? I don't know enough about International Wrestling to even have an informed opinion to be honest.  I just don't like the thought of something being handed over, but using multiple competition performance makes sense to some degree.  

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I would say that a wrestler like Jordan Burroughs who continues to win championships both internationally and domestically is clearly our best guy right now. Two of the greatest wrestlers in NCAA history went up a weight to stay away from him. My opinion, is he should have been named to the team.  I'm not saying we should name an athlete for every weight just an individual like this who is clearly above the rest of the competition and has proven himself on the world level by winning championships.

At the 1992 Trials John Smith came dangerously close to losing to John Fisher in the final wrestle off. Smith had been battling a staph infection and Fisher was good and came close to beating him. Fisher was an excellent wrestler and an even better guy, but would not have won a gold medal in Barcelona as we all know Smith did.

I disagree.  How would we know someone like Alex Dieringer wasn't ready? What if he showed up and blitzed Burroughs twice? Obviously that didn't happen, but he deserved an opportunity. 

 

So based on this criteria of people getting elected, J'Den Cox doesn't make the team because he wouldn't have enough points? This all seems so silly.  

Edited by Smooth34
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I disagree.  How would we know someone like Alex Dieringer wasn't ready? What if he showed up and blitzed Burroughs twice? Obviously that didn't happen, but he deserved an opportunity. 

 

So based on this criteria of people getting elected, J'Den Cox doesn't make the team because he wouldn't have enough points? This all seems so silly.  

Alex Dieringer is not the current World or Olympic Champion. Jordan Burroughs is and to date has lost 2 international matches in his career. Burroughs would be my only automatic pick.

As of Sunday evening, J'Den Cox does not posses a US Passport. He can get one in a day or so, no problem.

 

There is NO comparison to Jordan Burroughs success with anyone else on our current Olympic Team.

 

I am by no means selling any of our other athletes short. Those who made and those who didn't. Again, I am saying until things change a guy like Burroughs should get a free pass. The other countries do it without hesitation.

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Alex Dieringer is not the current World or Olympic Champion. Jordan Burroughs is and to date has lost 2 international matches in his career. Burroughs would be my only automatic pick.

As of Sunday evening, J'Den Cox does not posses a US Passport. He can get one in a day or so, no problem.

 

There is NO comparison to Jordan Burroughs success with anyone else on our current Olympic Team.

 

I am by no means selling any of our other athletes short. Those who made and those who didn't. Again, I am saying until things change a guy like Burroughs should get a free pass. The other countries do it without hesitation.

Some of them are also communist countries.....

 

(sorry, couldn't resist)

Edited by vito pepperelli
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How likely is it the U.S. qualifies the unqualified weights?

 

Who is the likely Russian competitor at Burroughs's weight?


Fyi, as someone that only follows freestyle during Olympic years I find the current version of the freestyle rules to be outstanding.

Edited by Alduflux
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How likely is it the U.S. qualifies the unqualified weights?

A part of that will come down to what other counties still had wrestlers to qualify, as well as, where some of the better wrestlers fall in the randomly drawn brackets. We may be able to qualify a few more at the next qualifier in Mongolia, but I would be very surprised if we get everyone in there. There is one more qualifier after that and hopefully we can get most of the remaining weights in on that one. While I t wouldn't be the first time we weren't able to qualify every weight for the Olympics, it sure would be disappointing for America to not be able to take a full squad.

 

Who is the likely Russian competitor at Burroughs's weight?

The Russian nationals are not until the end of May so we may not know for sure until after their official deliberate following that event. Tsargush hasnt really considered "their main guy" like he has in the past so I wouldn't be suprised if we see someone new. From what I've seen online Geduev (3rd at Worlds after a loss to JB) and Tsabolov (who JB has beat soundly) have been the two Russians who have placed the most at high level event in the last few years so I'm guessing it would likely be one of them. I don't have a complete background but I'd speculate they maybe leaning more toward Geduev since he has at least keep the match close with JB in the past.
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How likely is it the U.S. qualifies the unqualified weights?

 

Who is the likely Russian competitor at Burroughs's weight?

Fyi, as someone that only follows freestyle during Olympic years I find the current version of the freestyle rules to be outstanding.

Based on what we saw at the trials, I think Cox qualifies 86kg, but I'm not convinced Molinaro will first time out.

 

My guess is Russia will probably have Geduev at 74kg. Him and Burroughs had a close one in the semis at World's last year. He's super tough.

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No film on Cox helps him a ton and I think he gave up extra points more than once by letting his Valor get the best of his discretion. He is so instinctive and has uncanny timing. He doesn't have a near-unstoppable move like JB's freight train double, but his offense is varied and fairly advanced considering how green he is. His hips are phenomenal. He absolutely blew me away.

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We were talking about this all weekend, to be on the Olympic team you just need one good day. Hats off to guys like Molinaro and Cox who came out of nowhere basically to win a spot. Humphrey rolled his ankle in his first match and wasn't the same afterward. What would have happened if something like that happened to Burroughs? I'm not calling for a change, but it makes you realize how important peaking and just having things fall your way can have you on the Olympic team or at home.

I'm calling for a change. The OTT is just stupid. 

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I'm calling for a change. The OTT is just stupid. 

 

I know you're being tongue-in-cheek, but to Y2's point: if a knowledgeable jury got together right now to select our Olympic reps based on the last 12 months, even 18 months, who would they pick?  

 

Burroughs, Snyder, and Tervel would be no-brainers.

 

I think with Dennis being better and better, literally every time out, since he returned a year ago, and with the fact that he just beat Ramos twice and controlled Graff--I'm not sure you could pick anyone else at 57.  Ramos, for example, hasn't done anything outside our borders to do anything but discourage, unfortunately.

 

At 86, with Cox being so dominant over Herbert and beating Dake twice with such a short amount of prep time, I think you'd have to take him also.  Dake has gotten manhandled by second tier competition both times he's tried to compete in eastern european tournaments at 86.  Cox looks the part, has seemingly unbelievable potential, and has the domestic result.

 

That leaves 65.  This is the one weight that could get interesting.  Stieber has looked mouthwateringly fantastic in a couple tournaments against top internationals while the rest of our stable has struggled.  But he somehow always ends up like 5th in the US. Metcalf looked great at the World Cup but has fallen off since.  Pico's results have been mixed.  That leaves Molinaro, who looked strong at the Farrell in November, but hasn't looked great in his couple of international attempts and got mostly steamrolled at the US Open.  But then he's suddenly got ice water in his veins. Beats Cuba's top guy to win Pan Am's (the Cuban destroyed world silver medalist Franklin Gomez just a week later right after Gomez beat Metcalf).  And then of course Molinaro beats all of the candidates I listed here at nationals.  I personally would feel most hopeful sending Stieber or Pico to such an offense-oriented, totally loaded weight.  But how would a jury see it?  I think we'd be hard-pressed to expect that anyone but Molinaro would be selected.

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OTT's always put on a great show, which helps the fan base, but a guy like Burroughs, is it really necessary? He's the best shot the US has at a gold, but what if he got significant a injury during OTTs? We all knew he was the best for that weight, why sacrifice it?

 

A carefully organized scoring system would be big. Would a scoring system like that help push more wrestlers to attend more International competitions?

Edited by sslaymon
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If we wanted to go to a system where the OTT champ/national champ wasn't automatically our rep, I don't see any way we could do it except by way of a selection jury of some sort.  Even if your point system is perfectly crafted, what do you do if your best guy is injured for 8 months of your 10-month qualifying period?  That's just one of a bazillion scenarios.  I wouldn't be strongly opposed to a selection jury who would put forth clear criteria that encouraged as much international and domestic competition as possible for assessment to take place.  But a point system would have even more snags and scenarios than the system we already have, in my opinion.

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If we wanted to go to a system where the OTT champ/national champ wasn't automatically our rep, I don't see any way we could do it except by way of a selection jury of some sort.  Even if your point system is perfectly crafted, what do you do if your best guy is injured for 8 months of your 10-month qualifying period?  That's just one of a bazillion scenarios.  I wouldn't be strongly opposed to a selection jury who would put forth clear criteria that encouraged as much international and domestic competition as possible for assessment to take place.  But a point system would have even more snags and scenarios than the system we already have, in my opinion.

Yeah, you are probably right.

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