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maligned

If this guy wins at freestyle OTTs, it means we have the best chance at a medal...POST-MORTEM

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OTT freestyle "this guy gives us reason to hope" Post-Mortem:

 

57:

Who I thought inspired hope if he'd won: Garrett

 

Where is the hope meter now?: About as low as it would have been had Ramos won again.  Dennis has a great gut if he can get on top, but I struggle to hope that he'll have the offense to end up on top of many medal contenders at the world level.  

 

65:

Who I thought inspired hope if he'd won: Stieber, Pico, or Green, for various reasons (in retrospect, Retherford also)

 

Where is the hope meter now?: About as low as it would have been had Metcalf won again--probably even lower in my view.  Molinaro absolutely deserves the spot, but he has the same deficiency as Metcalf--lack of world-class offense--without as much world-class experience to utilize his top-notch defense as fully as Metcalf could.  With the depth of freakish studs at this weight worldwide, I think Molinaro can qualify the weight, but I'll be even more shocked by him than I was this past weekend if he comes back with a medal.  We needed offense and athleticism at this weight to have a puncher's chance and we didn't get it, unfortunately.

 

74:

Who I thought inspired hope if he won: Burroughs

 

Where is the hope meter now?:  All I see is gold.

 

86:

Who I thought inspired hope if he won: Taylor, R. Perry, or Cox (I didn't mention Cox on this site, but I did include him as a hope-inspirer when I posted a non-Indiana specific thread on theMat.com threads)

 

Where is the hope meter now?: Much, much higher than if the downward-trending Herbert or the undersized Dake had gotten through.  Cox is for real and is only getting better.  He had this performance with a few weeks of freestyle prep.  I can't wait to see his next steps with a few months of prep and a world qualifier under his belt.

 

97:

Who I thought inspired hope if he won: Snyder

 

Where is the hope meter now?: Very high.  This weight will have at least 4 other killers from Russia, Iran, Azerbaijan, and Ukraine (2 of which didn't have their probable reps at the worlds Snyder won, and will come in as slight favorites over the kid).  But the kid just keeps impressing more and more.  I can't wait to see him at Rio.

 

125:

Who I thought inspired hope if he won: Tervel

 

Where is the hope meter now?: Lower than in 2012 because of the neck and back issues, but still higher than Rey or Gwiz or anyone else would have inspired.  He'll still bang with all the top guys except Akgul of Turkey.

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OTT freestyle "this guy gives us reason to hope" Post-Mortem:

 

65:

Who I thought inspired hope if he'd won: Stieber, Pico, or Green, for various reasons (in retrospect, Retherford also)

 

Where is the hope meter now?: About as low as it would have been had Metcalf won again--probably even lower in my view.  Molinaro absolutely deserves the spot, but he has the same deficiency as Metcalf--lack of world-class offense--without as much world-class experience to utilize his top-notch defense as fully as Metcalf could.  With the depth of freakish studs at this weight worldwide, I think Molinaro can qualify the weight, but I'll be even more shocked by him than I was this past weekend if he comes back with a medal.  We needed offense and athleticism at this weight to have a puncher's chance and we didn't get it, unfortunately.

 

 

Cael knows wrestling.  Don't count out the Gorilla Hulk yet.  Look for him to make improvements between now and Mongolia and from Mongolia to Rio.  I think he has a chance to snag a bronze medal for us in Rio.  If anyone understands how to get the absolute most out of an athlete it is Cael.

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Cael knows wrestling.  Don't count out the Gorilla Hulk yet.  Look for him to make improvements between now and Mongolia and from Mongolia to Rio.  I think he has a chance to snag a bronze medal for us in Rio.  If anyone understands how to get the absolute most out of an athlete it is Cael.

Very, very true.  No one can deny the fact that he's made big leaps forward his last 3 or 4 big tournaments.  His last 8 matches, he's 7-1 with wins over Cuba's top guy, the U.S.'s previous top guy, and 3 over the guys everyone hoped to coronate as the U.S.'s next top guy (Stieber and Pico).  And he hit big-time, must-have moves in at least 4 of those wins.  That said, guys that are successful domestically but that struggle to score much tend to have a lower ceiling in terms of international performance.  Here's hoping his offense continues to develop and he proves idiots like me wrong.

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I was happy Dennis made it instead of Ramos. Ramos looked to counter nearly the entirety of each of his matches, while looking busy enough to avoid being put on the shot clock. He was lucky to beat Garrett (fleeing penalty, which was not really called anywhere else all weekend) and Scott (really thought Scott attacked much more). He won both by criteria.

 

Dennis is more offensive and not trying to eke out wins, a la Ramos, but he also possesses topnotch defense. He will also have less film to be scouted by his upcoming opponents. Has a very solid gastank too. Lastly, he looks a little like he's spent time with some trolls under a bridge, which may serve as an intimidation factor.

 

I would've taken almost anyone over Ramos, as I don't see his style as a winning style against the rest of the world. I did feel very badly for him after his loss, even thought I've never been a big fan.

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I was happy Dennis made it instead of Ramos. Ramos looked to counter nearly the entirety of each of his matches, while looking busy enough to avoid being put on the shot clock. He was lucky to beat Garrett (fleeing penalty, which was not really called anywhere else all weekend) and Scott (really thought Scott attacked much more). He won both by criteria.

 

Dennis is more offensive and not trying to eke out wins, a la Ramos, but he also possesses topnotch defense. He will also have less film to be scouted by his upcoming opponents. Has a very solid gastank too. Lastly, he looks a little like he's spent time with some trolls under a bridge, which may serve as an intimidation factor.

 

I would've taken almost anyone over Ramos, as I don't see his style as a winning style against the rest of the world. I did feel very badly for him after his loss, even thought I've never been a big fan.

I'm definitely glad it was Dennis over Ramos, but I'm not so sure Dennis will be any more difficult for world-level guys than Ramos of 2015 or Hazewinkel of 2012 or Blanc from before that.  

 

Since Cejudo in 2008, we've managed only two 5th place finishes and no medals from 7 competitions at this weight and both guys who did that well (Angel and the E.L. Strangler) brought something different to the table in attack and had success, even though many would argue they weren't even our best guys those years (Angel stepped in for an injury).

 

Garrett or Graff stepping up and showing that they can keep their amazing offense going for more than 2 minutes against defenders like Ramos or Dennis would have had me far more geeked up about this weight at Rio.  

Edited by maligned

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We were talking about this all weekend, to be on the Olympic team you just need one good day. Hats off to guys like Molinaro and Cox who came out of nowhere basically to win a spot. Humphrey rolled his ankle in his first match and wasn't the same afterward. What would have happened if something like that happened to Burroughs? I'm not calling for a change, but it makes you realize how important peaking and just having things fall your way can have you on the Olympic team or at home.

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We were talking about this all weekend, to be on the Olympic team you just need one good day. Hats off to guys like Molinaro and Cox who came out of nowhere basically to win a spot. Humphrey rolled his ankle in his first match and wasn't the same afterward. What would have happened if something like that happened to Burroughs? I'm not calling for a change, but it makes you realize how important peaking and just having things fall your way can have you on the Olympic team or at home.

There's definitely an element of that at a wide open weight like 143.  But Burroughs, Snyder, and Tervel all won as they should.  And no one who watched the OTTs would argue that the 6 matches we saw of Cox (coupled with great results as far back as 2014 at 97kg) were flash-in-the-pan results.  I'm convinced he's our best guy.  And even at 57, no one has beaten Dennis or Graff or Ramos except for Dennis or Graff or Ramos in recent tournaments.  We probably got the right guy (or one of several evenly matched) at that weight too.  Even in Molinaro's case, he's had far better results in the last 6 months that showed he had climbed to the top tier, but we probably just didn't pay close enough attention (I know I didn't).

Edited by maligned

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I can't grasp the concept of why our sport has no OT. It is very frustrating to have so many matches end in a criteria that I can't understand what makes that person worthy of a win, nor can the person watching wrestling for the first time.

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143 is an absolute pick'em, if you wrestle that weight 10 times I'd lean towards Metcalf winning more than anyone else.

 

Cox is legit, remember he has Snyder's number in the international styles at Fargo.

 

The 'Merican in me says yes have a single tournament to determine who our rep is...however the common sense in me says that the way we select our rep might hurt our medal count more than anything.

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How do other countries pick their top guys?  Do they have a tournament like ours or do they look at other countries' line-ups and put who they think will match up the best?

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How do other countries pick their top guys? Do they have a tournament like ours or do they look at other countries' line-ups and put who they think will match up the best?

I'm not sure on most countries, but have learned some insight on Russia. In recent years Russia has used a system where they evaluate their wrestlers over a series of national and international events before choosing their representative. While winning the Russian National Tournament does help ensure you name is in for final consideration it has not necessarily guaranteed you the spot. This is actually similar to what US Gymnastics has done as of late to determine their final team. There are some positives and negatives to this logic, but in some cases could produce the best overall chance for a medal. When it comes to determining the best at a sport the "American culture" is pretty wrapped up in the idea that a one day big tournament format is always the way to go. Also some positive and negatives to that system too. Edited by MattM

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I definitely like Graff and Garrett for their offensive potential. Graff, however, has consistently come up short of the big prize in his NCAA career and the Trials, which I attribute to strategy, or lack of topnotch strategy. In Garrett's case, his lack of experience was evident in a few different cases. I still think he got hosed vs Ramos and if he hadn't, he might've changed the outcome of the weight class.

 

Saw Cox give up 2 on Tds on the edge, where he might've conceded 1 for a step out with more experience.

 

I will say this for Dennis, Molinaro and Cox: they all have heart

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I definitely like Graff and Garrett for their offensive potential. Graff, however, has consistently come up short of the big prize in his NCAA career and the Trials, which I attribute to strategy, or lack of topnotch strategy. In Garrett's case, his lack of experience was evident in a few different cases. I still think he got hosed vs Ramos and if he hadn't, he might've changed the outcome of the weight class.

 

Saw Cox give up 2 on Tds on the edge, where he might've conceded 1 for a step out with more experience.

 

I will say this for Dennis, Molinaro and Cox: they all have heart

yeah, I don't see Graff or Garrett winning that often if the tournament is wrestled 100 times with their exact same level of experience and mindset right now.  What I was hoping was that one of them (especially Garrett) had advanced far enough in those respects to get the spot.  

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I can guarantee you that if most countries had a guy like Burroughs he would not have had to wrestle-off, he would just be on the team.  I can tell you guys like Satiev, Belaglozlov, Fadziev, etc..., NEVER wrestled-off for a spot on their team once they were established.

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I can guarantee you that if most countries had a guy like Burroughs he would not have had to wrestle-off, he would just be on the team.  I can tell you guys like Satiev, Belaglozlov, Fadziev, etc..., NEVER wrestled-off for a spot on their team once they were established.

I can't recall who off the top of my head, but one of the top Russian wrestlers was told a few months ago that he was guaranted the spot on the team.  This was done so he didn't have to take on a full competition to be considered at top guy for the team and could instead just do a couple of events so he was restedbefore Rio 

Edited by MattM

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Let's have a vote after semi-state next year to crown our individual state champs.  That should be enough data to properly elect the best guy. 

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Let's have a vote after semi-state next year to crown our individual state champs.  That should be enough data to properly elect the best guy. 

They aren't crowning a champion.  They are selecting who would best represent their country at the sport's most elite competition.  Just because a guy has a good day doesn't mean he will compete better against the rest of the world.

 

A better comparison would be a returning state champ not having to wrestle-off for the spot on his high school team the next year.

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Let's have a vote after semi-state next year to crown our individual state champs.  That should be enough data to properly elect the best guy. 

Nobody is picking a champion, just a team member. Why not put the guy who has the best chance of winning on the mat?

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Nobody is picking a champion, just a team member. Why not put the guy who has the best chance of winning on the mat?

Well said.  Particularly for well-established wrestlers heading into their late 20s or 30s where excessive wear/tear inflicts needless injuries.

 

I've talked to a number of folks over the years about the points-over-series protocol.  Like Y2, I too have pondered the if "The One Day Wonder" is really the best method.  Let's say Burroughs had the flu this weekend; USAW wouldn't have tolerated allowing another to grab his spot due to illness or injury imop.  So it seems like the one day champ could really be overturned anyway given a specific set of circumstances.

 

The points-series model is nice.  Provides some additional protection.  But the rules would need to be crafted very carefully.  Otherwise, a wrestler who consistently finishes in 3rd place at tournaments over the series, but never actually wins a single tournament, could end up as the Olympic representative due to obtaining the most points.  

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Well said.  Particularly for well-established wrestlers heading into their late 20s or 30s where excessive wear/tear inflicts needless injuries.

 

I've talked to a number of folks over the years about the points-over-series protocol.  Like Y2, I too have pondered the if "The One Day Wonder" is really the best method.  Let's say Burroughs had the flu this weekend; USAW wouldn't have tolerated allowing another to grab his spot due to illness or injury imop.  So it seems like the one day champ could really be overturned anyway given a specific set of circumstances.

 

The points-series model is nice.  Provides some additional protection.  But the rules would need to be crafted very carefully.  Otherwise, a wrestler who consistently finishes in 3rd place at tournaments over the series, but never actually wins a single tournament, could end up as the Olympic representative due to obtaining the most points.  

There have been injury exceptions in the past, but only if it was the number 1 guy. The only exception was the 1984 Trials.

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Wasn't Hump, Scott, and somebody else involved in a special wrestle off during the last Olympic cycle?

 

And didn't somebody get a clause to wrestle off James Green for spot on World Team b/c they missed weight?

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Wasn't Hump, Scott, and somebody else involved in a special wrestle off during the last Olympic cycle?

 

And didn't somebody get a clause to wrestle off James Green for spot on World Team b/c they missed weight?

Yes to the 2012 question.

 

Not exactly to the second question. Marable didn't "miss weight"...he just didn't weigh in. He got a medical exemption because a Doctor signed off on it.

 

There have been others as well that involved litigation. The Seracki-Lindland   match that was ordered to be rewrestled in 2000 is just an example. I was asked to be one of the referees for the rewrestle but I refused to go because I didn't agree with the litigation.

Edited by grecoref

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Wasn't Hump, Scott, and somebody else involved in a special wrestle off during the last Olympic cycle?

They usually wont just give wrestlers a special wrestle off for being injured.  In most cases it has to be a special case like you being a previous world team member or you are asked to attend a Olympic qualifying event which is near the time of the trials. 

 

If I recall the events correctly:

Bunch was allowed to sit out the Olympic Trials because he was our top healthy guy available to attend the Olympic qualifier which was held soon after the trials.  Since the weight hadn't been qualified they needed didn't want him to risk injury and have to make weight twice by participating in the Olympic Trials too.  He was told he would get a wrestle off for the spot if he was able to qualify the weight.  (For a few trials winners this year whose weight isn't qualified yet its a decently quick turn around to attend the qualifier tournament coming up, so I'm sure they played around with the idea of a similar scenario before this years trials.)

 

Humphrey's had an injury before the trials.  He was given an exemption from competing and allowed a special wrestle off due to being the previous World Team member.     

 

Scott won the Olympic Trials.  He was told he would be sent to the last qualifier event if Bunch qualify the weight.

 

 

When Bunch qualified the weight class for the Olympics it created the three person tournament to be held at the Beat the Streets event in Time Square. Whoever qualified the weight was told they would be allowed to sit out the first match, which turned out to be Bunch.  Scott beat Humphrey's under the old freestyle system of best of three periods where it basically keep coming down to a ball grab to determine who would get the hold advantage.  In the finals Scott beat Bunch to claims the Olympic spot and eventually go on to win the Bronze medal.  

Edited by MattM

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