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Folkstyle state injuries vs. ihsaa state


Xbrendnx

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I noticed a lot more injuries at folkstyle state and was very surprised to learn that the iswa only has a fifteen minute wait time before a wrestler can go back out to the mat (vs. 45 for ihsaa). Pretty sure this contributed to injuries. Some kids were wrestling almost back to back. I know it's a big moneygrab of a tournament, but this is just ridiculous.

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LOL... yeah it was difficult time frame without a doubt. That combined with the fact that conditioning has slipped some after a little time off after HS season. Performance level did drop some later in the day.

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I'm not worried about the time frame or the performance level. The kids safety (within reason) should come before anything else. And conditioning hasn't dropped that much. Most of these kids are still practicing almost every day. If you haven't even had a chance to let the sweat dry from your last match and the other guy has had an hour and 15 mins to rest. Chances are much higher that you'll get hurt. I think a review of the injuries would back up my statement. The 15 minute rule is selfish and hurts the sport and (more importantly) our kids.

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Serious question... Don't most kids have a pretty intense practice for about 2 hours every day? 15 mins might be a little quick but I'm not sure it is putting kids at anymore risk of getting hurt. Maybe it does.

 

And I would never want to put anything in front of safety but one of the biggest things people complain about is length of events. If the time limit was increased to 30-45 mins would the event have gone on much longer?

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We run first available for 600 kids at the IHPO on 12 mats. We rarely hit wait time issues and most get at least 20 minutes of rest towards the end. When running same mat all day you run into huge issues on the consolations especially towards the end. With first available we actually shut down mats and slow the event down in order to not tax the kids and give a better rest period. The ISWA used to do this, but parents complained enough to get them to change to single mat.

 

I hate the single mat system as a coach as I miss twice as many matches because all the quarter-finals, semi-finals, etc matches are almost exactly at the same time for ALL weights. 

With TrackWrestling it can automagically assign matches to mats and you can shut down mats as needed. It actually makes running the first available tournament way easier and more efficient. 

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We run first available for 600 kids at the IHPO on 12 mats. We rarely hit wait time issues and most get at least 20 minutes of rest towards the end. When running same mat all day you run into huge issues on the consolations especially towards the end. With first available we actually shut down mats and slow the event down in order to not tax the kids and give a better rest period. The ISWA used to do this, but parents complained enough to get them to change to single mat.

 

I hate the single mat system as a coach as I miss twice as many matches because all the quarter-finals, semi-finals, etc matches are almost exactly at the same time for ALL weights. 

With TrackWrestling it can automagically assign matches to mats and you can shut down mats as needed. It actually makes running the first available tournament way easier and more efficient. 

For the Juniors they ran two mats for each weight class with even number matches on one and odd on the others all day. It moved as fast as I've seen a 45 man bracket go. First available could be confusing with this many matches and wresters.

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I know my son wrestled the championship match yesterday in what was probably right at the 15-20 minute time limit and his opponents match ended maybe 15-20 minutes before his. My son made the comment "at least I don't have to warm back up". The problem was after they finished the championship match they had to wait for 2 more consolation rounds to be done to award medals. Guess I'm just used to 3rd-8th to finish before the championship.

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I thought it ran smooth, until mat help and officials disappeared off of mat 13 (they were waiting for one of those 15 min breaks). Junior 152 would have been done by 115-130 and had 40 plus kids.  After 40 minutes of nothing I went and asked if we had moved to another mat, called it for the day or what (one lady was nice and polite the other very defensive) shortly after we were back up and going.  Caused 3 sets of matches to go back to back to back with 15 minutes in between.

 

Suggestions: Thought around 11am they could have doubled up some of the mats and brought in Cadets.  Also think the championship mat should be in the middle instead of putting it on a corner (same side as awards). During weigh ins felt they should have let Juniors and Bantams go first since they wrestled at 8 am.  My nephew was there an hour before us and my son was done weighing in before him because they were allowing Juniors and Cadets to go first.

 

Then when we were all done they kept announcing awards for JR 152 like 6 times.  They were getting upset that no one was coming to the chairs.  Like um some of them probably went home other than the few that had to stay and wait the extra 2 hours for 3 matches. 

 

All in all a very well ran tournament as always.  I know I give the ISWA a lot of crap, but they do have great workers and run a great tournament for that many kids. 

 

Side note if ISWA would charge clubs a fee for running tournaments you might get more people having them. 

 

Or some club that has a good set-up for running them could make some extra money running tournaments. 

 

Hosting club responsible for mat setup/breakdown, scoreboards and everything else.

"running club or ISWA" come in and run the tournament from announcing to parings (probably a good side biz or fundraiser)

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So how long should we wait between matches? There are pros and cons to the one mat system as there are to the first available. Some of the weight classes definitely needed two maybe even three mats for the first two rounds. Cadet 120 and 126 were waaaayyyyy behind. We had two kids that did not wrestle their first match until 6:30 on Saturday and their second around 8:00. Wrestling was stopped at 9pm. I am pretty sure that both those weight classes were also the last to finish on Sunday.

 

Personally, I have no issue with the 15 minute rest, let's get in and get out. A tournament of this magnitude there are going to be some hiccups, but for the most part, outstanding job once again by the ISWA. For them having everyone on one weekend, I thought it flowed pretty well. I heard plenty of parents appreciating not having to travel two different weekends.

 

One last thing, those two guys running the concession stand by the main gym were outstanding! Very efficient for only two people.

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My son wrestled Junior 145, which was a pretty big class with 45 wrestlers. They wrestled on two mats and it seemed to go pretty quickly. He did hit a stretch of wins that had him wrestling about every 20 minutes, and he was definitely gassed (he was upset that his cardio was so bad). But I think he'd rather wrestle with 15-20 minutes rest instead of waiting all day for a match. His friend wrestled 160. We had wrestled five matches by the time his friend's second match came up.

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My oh my, I can remember the very first Folkstyle state and I can remember the old "All juniors to staging area"  system.  Times have changed and times have changed for the better. 

 

Common complaints that the ISWA has fixed:

 

1. Too much wait time between matches:  The complaint use to be we show up wait around for 6 hours and only wrestle 3-4 times.  Now the complaint is not enough time?  Jeeze get a grip, 15 min is plenty of recovery time for someone who truly is trying to win or place in a state level competition. 

 

2.  I never know where my wrestler will wrestle next, making is difficult to find a good viewing area and the viewing area is way too crowded:  Fixed, same weight class on same mat all day, you never have to worry about being in the right spot.  Also good for spectators who know the kids they want to watch.  this is the one of the BEST improvements for our sport I've seen in 20 years. 

 

As far as injuries, I noticed very few considering the number of contestants (2100 I believe)  and the number of bouts.  I would hypothesize the wait time had next to nothing to do with the ones that happened.  

Edited by Walter Sobchak
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I noticed a lot more injuries at folkstyle state and was very surprised to learn that the iswa only has a fifteen minute wait time before a wrestler can go back out to the mat (vs. 45 for ihsaa). Pretty sure this contributed to injuries. Some kids were wrestling almost back to back. I know it's a big moneygrab of a tournament, but this is just ridiculous.

15 minutes was not set by the ISWA.  It has been a USAW rule for quite a few years now.  It was researched and determined to be safe by the insurance company that covers the sports insurance for the wrestlers and the liability insurance for the tournaments.  It's also the way the Olympics and World Championships operate, and they have a lot more intense matches with less 30 second pins.

 

If the IHSAA (who follows the NFHS rules) ever hosted a tournament with 2100 wrestlers and over 20 mats, they would run into a huge problem with the 45 minutes wait time causing longer tournaments with idle mats at the end of the day.  Some sectionals have to take a break after the first pigtail round to make sure they get 45 minutes.  To me, that is "ridiculous".

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I'm not sure about the 15 minute mandatory time break has caused that much more injuries. I think maybe if someone got a nice shiner to the eye, that obviously it's not going to heal that day, but within 15 minutes and wrestling again, it could get pretty swollen and aggravated.

 

We have a wrestler, albeit in a younger class of Novice, wrestle 5 matches that all had to wait on the 15 minute mandatory break. They were able to split up the weight class to two mats and run odds and evens. His match would be done, they'd get another 1 or two in then he'd be up again once 15 minutes hit. It was more of a test of his endurance and conditioning at that point. All I could pretty much tell him to do was, stay stretched out and stay warm.

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Biggest thing I noticed was the bottle neck that happened when the Cadets were brought in at 2 pm.  My son wrestled 1x in 6 hours because they were trying to finish up Juniors as well.  I don't think that is ideal.  

 

I don't know how this would work, I haven't looked at the numbers for each division that closely to know if this is feasible, but I wonder if the Pee-Wee, Bantam, and Intermediates could be run 8am-2pm on Saturday, Novice and Schoolboy 2pm-8pm on Saturday, then bring the big kids in on Sunday.  It seems sensible to me to have all of the little guys wrestling on Saturday, get them done and get them home or back to a hotel and out of the gym.

 

I thought the ISWA did a good job.  My one gripe was the response I got on Saturday after I asked if we could wrestle one more match so my son would have wrestled 2x in that 6 hour period. It wasn't the response, I actually thought it was a fair response, but the mat official and the lady "running" that gym were absolutely rude and had no reason to be.  Then of course, I was the bad guy...won't be the last time I'm sure.  All I ask of the ISWA and those representing it (they have a ton of great people) is remember why you do it and who you do it for.

 

Lastly, I think the ISWA should also put together a rankings system for officials.  Some very good ones yesterday...very good.  At the same time, let clubs rank the officials and if they don't meet a certain ranking, they can't officiate an ISWA State tournament.  Parents would not be allowed to rank, only those presidents or designated "head" coaches of the club or academy.  Just a thought!

 

Having said all that...the ISWA did a nice job and we'll be back next year.

 

Clint Gard

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I don't think 45 would work with something this big, just maybe 25 or 30. First available mat sounds good as well. Most of the kids that just got finished and had to wrestle someone fresh lost anyway. That doesn't exactly do them any favors or lead to a good match. Maybe it's just too big. Pay to play might be the problem. Why not have two semi-state tournaments to qualify for state. Or place 1 or 2 in a few other tournaments to get the right to compete at state. Bigger isn't always better for the athletes.

Edited by Xbrendnx
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I love the idea of qualifiers.  For cadets and Juniors in high school any IHSAA semi-state qualifier gets automatic bid. 

 

For Schoolboy and Cadets still in middle school:  Any IHSWCA state place winner get automatic bid. 

 

For all others it should be a top two finish at any local ISWA folkstyle tournament. 

 

That is one idea: 

 

Other idea for if ISWA really wanted to make more money is have four-eight Semi-State qualifiers around the state and take the top 4 or 5 from each age group and weight.  Many more participants would be expected at four semi states that were closer to home for people.  Driving over weighing in spending night (multiple if your a cadet) gets expensive for someone who is on the bubble of placement skill wise.   Think how many more kids would participate if it were closer to home.

 

 

Just an idea. 

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I love the idea of qualifiers.  For cadets and Juniors in high school any IHSAA semi-state qualifier gets automatic bid. 

 

For Schoolboy and Cadets still in middle school:  Any IHSWCA state place winner get automatic bid. 

 

For all others it should be a top two finish at any local ISWA folkstyle tournament. 

 

That is one idea: 

 

Other idea for if ISWA really wanted to make more money is have four-eight Semi-State qualifiers around the state and take the top 4 or 5 from each age group and weight.  Many more participants would be expected at four semi states that were closer to home for people.  Driving over weighing in spending night (multiple if your a cadet) gets expensive for someone who is on the bubble of placement skill wise.   Think how many more kids would participate if it were closer to home.

 

 

Just an idea. 

 

 

I don't think 45 would work with something this big, just maybe 25 or 30. First available mat sounds good as well. Most of the kids that just got finished and had to wrestle someone fresh lost anyway. That doesn't exactly do them any favors or lead to a good match. Maybe it's just too big. Pay to play might be the problem. Why not have two semi-state tournaments to qualify for state. Or place 1 or 2 in a few other tournaments to get the right to compete at state. Bigger isn't always better for the athletes.

Check the Freestyle State boycott thread to see what you fight against for qualifiers.

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15 minutes was not set by the ISWA.  It has been a USAW rule for quite a few years now.  It was researched and determined to be safe by the insurance company that covers the sports insurance for the wrestlers and the liability insurance for the tournaments.  It's also the way the Olympics and World Championships operate, and they have a lot more intense matches with less 30 second pins.

 

If the IHSAA (who follows the NFHS rules) ever hosted a tournament with 2100 wrestlers and over 20 mats, they would run into a huge problem with the 45 minutes wait time causing longer tournaments with idle mats at the end of the day.  Some sectionals have to take a break after the first pigtail round to make sure they get 45 minutes.  To me, that is "ridiculous".

^^^ this.  It's a national standard.  Taken my grandson to many tournaments in many other states.  Most states run on the 15 standard. 

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the real problem came in when they split a weight class into 2 mats odds and evens, then my kid would wrestle and then 2 or maybe 3 matches later (which were likely pins since the level at cadet wasn't that high) he would be up again. Also at the end of the day when they were doing this Saturday it was the last match of the day so the table workers were in so much of a hurry and rushing him back on the mat I Dont even think they let him get a full 15 minutes in before the match.

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Funny, I was just talking about this earlier tonight about how much I despised the first available mat tournaments. Very confusing especially with multiple gyms. I can remember sprinting to another gym to barely beat the last call and also waiting on the opponent for the same reason. On one instance my sons match was somewhere in the 500s and the tournament was currently in the 300s so we thought that we were safe to leave and get some lunch but as soon as we hit the door to leave the powers that be decided to jump up to the 500s in the other gym and was calling for him to the mat. If we had of left 10 seconds earlier we would have missed out. I know that these are two diffrent issues but for the wrestler, mom and dad, aunts and unckes, grandma and grandpa the first available thing is not good. IHPO 2013

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