Boycott Freestyle State

[Coach Hull]

Daddy Hatch-

 

No offense taken.  Ill go through these briefly:

 

1) I understand the beef about the waivers, being last minute and inconveniencing the parents who made adjustments to their summer schedule, only for others to turn around, skate the rules, and come in through the back door.  I get it. It sucked for those who followed the rules, and for the ISWA who provided the opportunity. Again, it was the coaches discretion on handing out the waivers like hot cakes.  But either way it's over.  With all due respect, there were some things that George Bush did that I didn't agree with before Obama got elected.  But any and all complaining I do isn't going to change what happened OR fall on ears who care or can do anything about it now. What's done is done. It'll be the same when the next POTUS takes over, whoever it is. I'm not downplaying it but when is it enough?  At what point does it pass legitimate concerns and then become just crying about it?  The horse has been dead, at least for me.  I have other more pressing issue to address  in my life other than something that happened last year.  Hindsight IS 20/20. It's over.  Moving on..............

 

2) I don't know how the ISWA can be more transparent with the current tools they have.  The meetings are open to the public, minutes are sent out, newsletters, etc. I agree that our website isn't set up to keep people on it.  I, like you, go on there the same amount - very rarely.  They do have an emailing list, with access to over 8,000 athletes. But emails change, especially for the younger crowd, so the info goes to the adults, in particular the club coaches, who have the responsibility to disseminate that info.  Still, I'd like for the ISWA to get a message board like this, or get a twitter account, or build an app, or do a better job at spreading news...but we can only play the hand we are dealt.  Here is a thought, since no one on the board is paid, how about we get another volunteer who specializes in social media to take over this area for the state?  Easier said than done, I know, because believe it or not we all have lives and families too.  But that doesnt stop them from doing the best they can, making adjustments, and continuing to improve under whatever circumstances are present. 

 

3) ISWA is a business, a non-profit business, which must rely on volunteers.  I'm certain if everyone were paid we would quadruple the interested applicants for some of these positions.  But it's all volunteer.  I'm assume you work full-time.  Do you work for free?  Probably not.  How long COULD you work for free?  Probably not long. Why? Because you have bills to pay and mouths to feed. Let's say you loved your job so much that you were able to work for free, and love put food on the table.  But what if you volunteered your time, out of sheer love, sacrificing your family time, money, extra curricular activities, money, etc. to put into this business, and you did absolutely your best with what you had......and there are still people talking sh*t CONTINUOUSLY on the hard work of you and your team.  

 

Let's say you have thick skin but you have a 60+ year old co-worker, almost like a mother or grandmother, with a heart of gold, divorced, cats everywhere, no husband, kids are gone, etc. who still has dedicated her life for the cause of this business and what it stood for, and who would give her last dollar to help you and anyone else...only to have people miles away on a computer talking so much sh*t on her hard work only because they disagree?!?!?  Please. This lady doesnt defend herself, but you as a man would absolutely take offense and hopefully step up and say something. Disagreeing is one thing, and I have no problem with disagreeing.  But when people take it overboard, which is their right, then that's where my posts come from today.    I'm not bothered by the ones who have concerns, I get ticked off by the trolls who KEEP harping on her and use every opportunity to stay on her head, especially when they haven't done anything as of late to help the situation.

 

For the record, people can vote....if they come, join, put in their time, and earn that vote.  But allowing all club members to vote, especially right before they leave for baseball practice, or stay at home from practice to play Call of Duty, isn't the wisest option as a business because they are not invested as much as they need to be, or only invested as long as they are participating.  No one on this board is still competing in tournaments themselves, but they are still involved.  How long will you be involved once your son/daughter has finished their career?  Probably not long.  But ALLLLLL  members on the board have essentially dedicated their lives to helping Indiana wrestling.  And if ISWA was a dictatorship, and I was in charge, some things WOULD be absolutely different.  But it's not.  It is a governing body with board members and committees full of people from all walks of life with a common purpose: Indiana wrestling.  

 

4) Not sure how to comment on this one.  No, i would prefer our best kids be at Fargo, as well as our mid and low level kids.  The problem many have now is we think all of the success at these national folkstyle tournaments make us a high level kid....until we go wrestle the REAL high level kids when and where it counts.  So pride doesnt have the best of me.  Indiana Pride does (plug) but not pride by itself.  If you think I or the ISWA prefer our mid level guys over our high level guys at Fargo, you are greatly off.  I think you are trying to insinuate that the ISWA is punishing the "high level" kids who don't wrestle at 2 whole qualifications, so therefor we prefer the less qualified?  If we didn't then we would make the high level kids happy by letting them do whatever and just show up for Freestyle state?  I answered that in an earlier post.  This doesn't make any sense.

 

What I am beginning to understand more and more is that my definition of "high level" kid is different from most. What would you constitute as high level?  State placer?  State Champ even?  If so, then yes we are way off.  Indiana has some good kids, but very few who can roll with the best in the country.  Maybe half of our state champs would All-American at Fargo, most of which would place low, and even fewer would make top 3.  Here, again is the issue: not nearly enough of our top guys even GO to Fargo, or UWW Cadets or Juniors. Another issue: Our top, top guys do alright, but #2 through everyone else basically get a hard-fought double dip. Much deeper issues are here than some funky qualifier.  AS A WHOLE: the quality of Indiana wrestling is not nearly as good as people think.  Wrestling at a national event, especially Folkstyle, does not help in any way the goal behind the requirements: higher quality and quantity of Indiana kids wrestling freestyle, more local freestyle tournaments and opportunities. 

 

#5)  I agree with you here the most.  Folkstyle is for the masses.  I didnt even know it was called "Folkstyle" until later in life.  When I was wrestling, as soon as the high school season was over, we went straight into Freestyle and Greco and didnt event think about "Folkstyle" wrestling until September/October. Same thing in college.  It wasn't until I moved back to Indiana that I saw all of these new "Folkstyle" tournaments. It was pretty sad already but it just kept getting worse and worse.  But yes it is for the masses. Not sure when, where, or how this came to pass.  Actually, the more I think about it the more I relaize the masses are following the masses, because they sure arent following the top 5% in the country.  The top 5% are training for UWW Cadets and Juniors right now.  What did the Indiana masses practice today? But I absolutely agree about it being a choice.  

 

Because of all of these new choices and options the kids have now, we have to adapt to the times. Next year Indiana Pride does plan to host a Beginners Freestyle and Greco Open, and even Freestyle Duals (in the traditional sense).  But every state is different.  It is a culture. Personally, this 5-8 year span to create some high expectation having little freestyle and greco monsters with Olympic dreams is what I envision to happen with this qualifier rule (not a cheap shot). But it is definitely a culture shift that must take place and will take some time. Absolutely an inconvenience for some in the beginning but over time it will pan out and be forgotten about. I wish we didn't have to have it and it was still a privelage to wrestle in these styles, and represent Indiana's National Team wherever.  The qualifier doesnt fix the mindset.  I put this burden on the coaches as the official liaison between the athlete and the sport, but yeah...

 

6) I also understand the abundance of athletes and opportunities in central Indiana vs. the rest of the state.  Believe it or not, the majority of Indiana Pride's program is made up of kids from programs outside of Indianapolis, where they may even be the only kid training in the off-season.  That sounds like a play the hand you are dealt type of thing.  It's easy for me to say "well just  get with your local club and blah, blah, blah" but the truth is I can only imagine how tough it is.  Again, this qualifier is essentially designed for this reason: to help give more schools more confidence in hosting these freestyle and greco events knowing people may HAVE to come.  

 

@Sig - Ha! Nice on the NUWAY statement, but INDIANA HAD KIDS OUT THERE WHO HAVEN'T AND DONT PLAN ON WRESTLING FREESTYLE!!!  Yes, there are college coaches at ToC and Iowa....but not the top programs.  I saw the Manchester coach at Perry Meridian's Freestyle and Greco Tournament too, but that doesnt mean much.  Tom Brands, Chael Sanderson and John Smith are not that worried about your kid winning ToC or going undefeated at the Viper Pit Duals.  Great tournaments, too young to matter, and it's more folkstyle.  They want you well versed.  I saw ALLLLL of these guys at Fargo.  Saw them, talked to them, picked their brains, etc. @ Fargo. Someone let me know when you see one of these guys, not a representative, but these guys at a summer folkstyle tournament.  Saying the ISWA doesn't support their own wrestlers doesn't require an answer as I sense the frustration.

 

The bottom line for me is if I only coached at Indiana Pride and was not on the ISWA board, I absoluely would be thinking different.  One of our coaches even wants to take our kids to Illinois/California/Oklahoma freestyle tournaments on the weekends and skip the local Indiana tournaments because there is not enough high-quality competition. I actually wouldn't be against it and am all for it......but I can't think like that because I have to keep the entire state in mind being on the board.  This would help us individually, but the state would suffer.   Even though we are training in Freestyle, local tournaments would miss out on these numbers, quality or not, and money.  If this got out of control then there wouldn't be any reason for this local club in B.F.E., Indiana, to even host a tournament because everyone is out of state. There goes the money.  This is kind of the position we are in now, but much much worse because we arent even training and competing in the international styles.  Like I said, being on the board comes with the obligation, which I embrace, of focusing on Indiana as a whole.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Coach Hull

[warsawwrestling]

Coach Hull,

 

I'm not going to spend much more time on this, but there were a few things I wanted to clear up......

 

1. First off and MOST importantly I by no means, way or how meant to insult Mrs. Whetstone (I'm assuming this is whom you are referencing). She is Mrs. Indiana Wrestling. I was just stating that if members of ISWA were there, that I don't see how that isn't an exception to the freestyle rules.

 

2. The comment about wavers was an example by tying it in with this new idea of weekday meets. If others are feeling like I am, than they are feeling like okay here's this years "trick" to get in without having to go to 2 tournaments.

 

3. Social media thing sounds fun for someone under 25, I just figured my phone out. I do like the idea that you offered a broadcast. Of course like everyone else on here my situation is different.....I work nights, usually 4-12 hour shifts a week. So, it has a tendency to mess with my day life. Which makes it hard to make it for meetings two and a half hours away.

 

4. There is always going to be people that don't like change. As a manager myself I completely understand your situation. I feel you guys were on a good path of focusing on the younger kids and pushing freestyle to them, that's why I kept saying get out of the folkstyle or at least shorten it to lessen their options. I also grew up and wrestled when there was just freestyle right after High School Season. I also used to compete in my division and up a division because they had them on different weekends at state. At that time you had to place in the top 4 in order to even go to freestyle state. LOVED IT! I also wrestled in the ARMY for 2 years, which was freestyle. LOVED IT ALSO!!!!

 

5. One of my hardest issues with this whole concept is that you are asking our High School Kids to stay home and wrestle (in Indiana) vs going out and wrestling what you are even saying are better kids (cause Indiana wrestling is down in your view) at bigger tournaments (Scholastic duels and Folkstyle Nationals). As far as defining "higher level kids" I would say I'm talking about that top 5-10% in the state. I think the bigger problem is the lack of sectional, regional or JV kids at these. That is the larger market (besides little kids).

 

6. Lastly, you are correct that my high school coaching days are coming to an end for now. But don't fear you will still have to put up with my crap because I will just be filtering back down to start a youth club back up in Warsaw in a few years. Time for the Nephew to start training to take his Uncle's and Cousin's records off the boards. I guess that is another reason why this is such a hot topic for me, because I'm trying to start to put a plan together for the direction of the club. From my view point I'm not sold and that is ISWA's problem to figure out how to change that public opinion.

Edited April 26, 2016 by warsawwrestling

[Y2CJ41]

Nick,

It sounds like a lot of deflection in your statements.

 

1. You blame the coaches for giving out the waivers. Anyone could email the ISWA and get a waiver, it was on the ISWA to grant those waivers, not the clubs or coaches.

 

2. I have asked to be on the email list due to not being the club director anymore. I got one email then have not received one since.

 

3. People volunteer, just as I volunteer to coach. I take responsibility when I mess up, just as the ISWA should.

[bigdanteague]

Daddy Hatch-

 

No offense taken.  Ill go through these briefly:

 

1) I understand the beef about the waivers, being last minute and inconveniencing the parents who made adjustments to their summer schedule, only for others to turn around, skate the rules, and come in through the back door.  I get it. It sucked for those who followed the rules, and for the ISWA who provided the opportunity. Again, it was the coaches discretion on handing out the waivers like hot cakes.  But either way it's over.  With all due respect, there were some things that George Bush did that I didn't agree with before Obama got elected.  But any and all complaining I do isn't going to change what happened OR fall on ears who care or can do anything about it now. What's done is done. It'll be the same when the next POTUS takes over, whoever it is. I'm not downplaying it but when is it enough?  At what point does it pass legitimate concerns and then become just crying about it?  The horse has been dead, at least for me.  I have other more pressing issue to address  in my life other than something that happened last year.  Hindsight IS 20/20. It's over.  Moving on..............

 

2) I don't know how the ISWA can be more transparent with the current tools they have.  The meetings are open to the public, minutes are sent out, newsletters, etc. I agree that our website isn't set up to keep people on it.  I, like you, go on there the same amount - very rarely.  They do have an emailing list, with access to over 8,000 athletes. But emails change, especially for the younger crowd, so the info goes to the adults, in particular the club coaches, who have the responsibility to disseminate that info.  Still, I'd like for the ISWA to get a message board like this, or get a twitter account, or build an app, or do a better job at spreading news...but we can only play the hand we are dealt.  Here is a thought, since no one on the board is paid, how about we get another volunteer who specializes in social media to take over this area for the state?  Easier said than done, I know, because believe it or not we all have lives and families too.  But that doesnt stop them from doing the best they can, making adjustments, and continuing to improve under whatever circumstances are present. 

 

3) ISWA is a business, a non-profit business, which must rely on volunteers.  I'm certain if everyone were paid we would quadruple the interested applicants for some of these positions.  But it's all volunteer.  I'm assume you work full-time.  Do you work for free?  Probably not.  How long COULD you work for free?  Probably not long. Why? Because you have bills to pay and mouths to feed. Let's say you loved your job so much that you were able to work for free, and love put food on the table.  But what if you volunteered your time, out of sheer love, sacrificing your family time, money, extra curricular activities, money, etc. to put into this business, and you did absolutely your best with what you had......and there are still people talking sh*t CONTINUOUSLY on the hard work of you and your team.  

 

Let's say you have thick skin but you have a 60+ year old co-worker, almost like a mother or grandmother, with a heart of gold, divorced, cats everywhere, no husband, kids are gone, etc. who still has dedicated her life for the cause of this business and what it stood for, and who would give her last dollar to help you and anyone else...only to have people miles away on a computer talking so much sh*t on her hard work only because they disagree?!?!?  Please. This lady doesnt defend herself, but you as a man would absolutely take offense and hopefully step up and say something. Disagreeing is one thing, and I have no problem with disagreeing.  But when people take it overboard, which is their right, then that's where my posts come from today.    I'm not bothered by the ones who have concerns, I get ticked off by the trolls who KEEP harping on her and use every opportunity to stay on her head, especially when they haven't done anything as of late to help the situation.

 

For the record, people can vote....if they come, join, put in their time, and earn that vote.  But allowing all club members to vote, especially right before they leave for baseball practice, or stay at home from practice to play Call of Duty, isn't the wisest option as a business because they are not invested as much as they need to be, or only invested as long as they are participating.  No one on this board is still competing in tournaments themselves, but they are still involved.  How long will you be involved once your son/daughter has finished their career?  Probably not long.  But ALLLLLL  members on the board have essentially dedicated their lives to helping Indiana wrestling.  And if ISWA was a dictatorship, and I was in charge, some things WOULD be absolutely different.  But it's not.  It is a governing body with board members and committees full of people from all walks of life with a common purpose: Indiana wrestling.  

 

4) Not sure how to comment on this one.  No, i would prefer our best kids be at Fargo, as well as our mid and low level kids.  The problem many have now is we think all of the success at these national folkstyle tournaments make us a high level kid....until we go wrestle the REAL high level kids when and where it counts.  So pride doesnt have the best of me.  Indiana Pride does (plug) but not pride by itself.  If you think I or the ISWA prefer our mid level guys over our high level guys at Fargo, you are greatly off.  I think you are trying to insinuate that the ISWA is punishing the "high level" kids who don't wrestle at 2 whole qualifications, so therefor we prefer the less qualified?  If we didn't then we would make the high level kids happy by letting them do whatever and just show up for Freestyle state?  I answered that in an earlier post.  This doesn't make any sense.

 

What I am beginning to understand more and more is that my definition of "high level" kid is different from most. What would you constitute as high level?  State placer?  State Champ even?  If so, then yes we are way off.  Indiana has some good kids, but very few who can roll with the best in the country.  Maybe half of our state champs would All-American at Fargo, most of which would place low, and even fewer would make top 3.  Here, again is the issue: not nearly enough of our top guys even GO to Fargo, or UWW Cadets or Juniors. Another issue: Our top, top guys do alright, but #2 through everyone else basically get a hard-fought double dip. Much deeper issues are here than some funky qualifier.  AS A WHOLE: the quality of Indiana wrestling is not nearly as good as people think.  Wrestling at a national event, especially Folkstyle, does not help in any way the goal behind the requirements: higher quality and quantity of Indiana kids wrestling freestyle, more local freestyle tournaments and opportunities. 

 

#5)  I agree with you here the most.  Folkstyle is for the masses.  I didnt even know it was called "Folkstyle" until later in life.  When I was wrestling, as soon as the high school season was over, we went straight into Freestyle and Greco and didnt event think about "Folkstyle" wrestling until September/October. Same thing in college.  It wasn't until I moved back to Indiana that I saw all of these new "Folkstyle" tournaments. It was pretty sad already but it just kept getting worse and worse.  But yes it is for the masses. Not sure when, where, or how this came to pass.  Actually, the more I think about it the more I relaize the masses are following the masses, because they sure arent following the top 5% in the country.  The top 5% are training for UWW Cadets and Juniors right now.  What did the Indiana masses practice today? But I absolutely agree about it being a choice.  

 

Because of all of these new choices and options the kids have now, we have to adapt to the times. Next year Indiana Pride does plan to host a Beginners Freestyle and Greco Open, and even Freestyle Duals (in the traditional sense).  But every state is different.  It is a culture. Personally, this 5-8 year span to create some high expectation having little freestyle and greco monsters with Olympic dreams is what I envision to happen with this qualifier rule (not a cheap shot). But it is definitely a culture shift that must take place and will take some time. Absolutely an inconvenience for some in the beginning but over time it will pan out and be forgotten about. I wish we didn't have to have it and it was still a privelage to wrestle in these styles, and represent Indiana's National Team wherever.  The qualifier doesnt fix the mindset.  I put this burden on the coaches as the official liaison between the athlete and the sport, but yeah...

 

6) I also understand the abundance of athletes and opportunities in central Indiana vs. the rest of the state.  Believe it or not, the majority of Indiana Pride's program is made up of kids from programs outside of Indianapolis, where they may even be the only kid training in the off-season.  That sounds like a play the hand you are dealt type of thing.  It's easy for me to say "well just  get with your local club and blah, blah, blah" but the truth is I can only imagine how tough it is.  Again, this qualifier is essentially designed for this reason: to help give more schools more confidence in hosting these freestyle and greco events knowing people may HAVE to come.  

 

@Sig - Ha! Nice on the NUWAY statement, but INDIANA HAD KIDS OUT THERE WHO HAVEN'T AND DONT PLAN ON WRESTLING FREESTYLE!!!  Yes, there are college coaches at ToC and Iowa....but not the top programs.  I saw the Manchester coach at Perry Meridian's Freestyle and Greco Tournament too, but that doesnt mean much.  Tom Brands, Chael Sanderson and John Smith are not that worried about your kid winning ToC or going undefeated at the Viper Pit Duals.  Great tournaments, too young to matter, and it's more folkstyle.  They want you well versed.  I saw ALLLLL of these guys at Fargo.  Saw them, talked to them, picked their brains, etc. @ Fargo. Someone let me know when you see one of these guys, not a representative, but these guys at a summer folkstyle tournament.  Saying the ISWA doesn't support their own wrestlers doesn't require an answer as I sense the frustration.

 

The bottom line for me is if I only coached at Indiana Pride and was not on the ISWA board, I absoluely would be thinking different.  One of our coaches even wants to take our kids to Illinois/California/Oklahoma freestyle tournaments on the weekends and skip the local Indiana tournaments because there is not enough high-quality competition. I actually wouldn't be against it and am all for it......but I can't think like that because I have to keep the entire state in mind being on the board.  This would help us individually, but the state would suffer.   Even though we are training in Freestyle, local tournaments would miss out on these numbers, quality or not, and money.  If this got out of control then there wouldn't be any reason for this local club in B.F.E., Indiana, to even host a tournament because everyone is out of state. There goes the money.  This is kind of the position we are in now, but much much worse because we arent even training and competing in the international styles.  Like I said, being on the board comes with the obligation, which I embrace, of focusing on Indiana as a whole.

 

Type less

 

Get input from your constituency before making decisions more.

[AJ]

Forcing people to do things has never really been a good idea.. In this age of numerous choices and activities, forcing a kid and a family to choose will not work out well.   

 

The ISWA seems to be constantly tripping over their own feet when it comes to freestyle.  This is the perception that the public is getting, and perception quickly becomes reality.

 

"Waiver gate" ... "Last Chance/Last Minute/KindaSecret Qualifiers" ..... Bad perceptions.....

[Mattyb]

Mr. Hull has listed and responded to all the complaints. Kudos for Nick for doing that. We all got our frustrations out to a high ranking member of the board. That's awesome!!!

 

Now....... What can WE all do to fix it.

 

Again, I am no longer a board member. But.... I will personally take down all of your suggestions on how to fix things, and will hand deliver them to all of the board members at state. Lets use our time and energy to do something productive. Many of you know me, and know that I put in countless hours helping out also. I always stay positive and will do anything for anyone. Help me get suggestions to help fix the issue.  

 

I will start with this one. "Please get rid of the two tournament rule or give exemptions to members of our national teams".

 

Anything else???? Or will this one suggestion cure everything? Or do we need another 8 pages of criticism?

Edited April 26, 2016 by Mattyb

[bigdanteague]

1.  Please get rid of the two tournament rule or give exemptions to members of our national teams.

2.  Please communicate with the rank and file ISWA members before making decisions that impact their spring wrestling plans.

[grappleapple]

My son wrestled freestyle and Greco at a young age, and then we went through several years where there wasn't a program locally for him to learn the styles. He didn't really start doing freestyle again until his freshman year.

He absolutely loves Greco, and likes freestyle. He's went to a different RTC Monday-Thursdays each week and gets lots of instructions. He's went to the mandatory two qualifiers the last two years and will wrestle at ISWA state. He's getting pretty decent, but he's not elite level by any means.

But, having said that - I know he would still have wrestled the tourneys he did whether he had to as a qualifier or not. He wants to get better, and wants as many matches as possible - as I'm sure almost all wrestlers do.

Eliminating qualifiers all together is the way I'd vote. For us, qualifiers are great fun and a good measure for what improvements have been made. He expects to have fewer matches at a qualifier, than at state. For him, state is something special and he looks forward to seeing big brackets with 40 plus kids in it. Who cares if he goes 0-2, but wrestles well? I'm 100 percent for no qualifiers needed for state. State should be for the kids who want to prove they are the best, on that day.

I may be wrong, but I think participation at local tourneys will still be decent because wrestlers who are doing offseason want to compete.

One other thing. If my son goes out and wrestled well and wins state in a bracket with 12 kids, he would be proud - but I know he would be embarrassed by the fact that there were only a few kids at his weight.

[swain358]

What frustrates me is that people are defending a rule that we all know has been ineffective and making Freestyle/Greco participation worse.. Again I am not bad mouthing the ISWA or anyone who was on the panel who created the rule. They tried an idea and it didn't work as planned. But when people defend the rule that makes those in power feel that the rule is maybe being effective. It's not.. Here's an idea, get rid of the rule and start thinking of another solution. Stop beating the dead horse..

[grecoref]

Here is what I am understanding from all of this.....

 

The ISWA screwed up last year by allowing waivers!

The ISWA screwed up this year by not allowing waivers!

The qualifier requirement is a good thing!

The qualifier requirement is a bad thing!

Our kids should not be penalized for wrestling in a "National" Tournament (one of the 176 "National" Tournaments currently being conducted)

Our kids should wrestle FS/GR and not Folkstyle if they want to compete in Fargo!

If you don't agree with the poster then something is wrong with you!

If you want to express your opinion to the ISWA, attend a meeting, email them or call them.

If the ISWA was concerned about our opinions they would read this message board.

 

Lastly, what I really get out of this is the people who are passionate about our sport can't agree what is best for the sport. Maybe, just maybe, we should stop trying to prove "my idea is the best" and start working together to get this right before it's too late.

 

I have seen organizations split. I am old enough to remember the AAU/USWF battles. Good people on both sides were lost because they couldn't work together. Don't allow that to happen here.

[Mattyb]

What frustrates me is that people are defending a rule that we all know has been ineffective and making Freestyle/Greco participation worse.. Again I am not bad mouthing the ISWA or anyone who was on the panel who created the rule. They tried an idea and it didn't work as planned. But when people defend the rule that makes those in power feel that the rule is maybe being effective. It's not.. Here's an idea, get rid of the rule and start thinking of another solution. Stop beating the dead horse..

Sounds good... So the next board meting we all show up, and let the ISWA know how much we hate the rule. We let them know that we speak for the majority of their members, and we get it changed. The board may be willing to meet with us all at state. They may be able to carve out some time to do that. On state weekends they do volunteer from 6 am to 10 pm on most state weekends. I'm sure that they can spare a few more minutes of their time (since they are doing it all for free).

 

Oh... that reminds me. Freestyle is DYING!!!!! While we are, there we should present some alternate options to help save a style that we are passionate about.

 

Who's willing to take a day off and go talk to the board to save our sport?

Edited April 26, 2016 by Mattyb

[warsawwrestling]

1. Get rid of folkstyle state for school boy/girl and up. Use middle school state and ISHAA state as qualifiers for National events. Have a folkstyle season for youth starting Nov/Dec with state being the week before high school sectionals. Than get freestyle rolling at this point. Gives youth extra 3 weeks for beginners

 

2 qualifiers for intermediate down. Maybe 1 qualifier for cadet & schoolboy. Open for juniors up Offer discount for more kids that get more qualifiers than required!

 

State Pricing: intermediate and down &30, with $2 off per extra qualifiers over the 2 required.

Schoolboy & Cadets $40, with $3 off per extra qualifiers over the 1 required. Juniors and up $50, with $5 off per qualifier.

 

Wavers for Team Indiana events that happen during freestyle time frame and injury waver from an appropriate and relevant to the injury. Example emergency medical clinic writing a note for a concussion. (Not qualified to clear concussion)

 

Plus several other things spit balling here......

-Club development help

-ISWA sets up a crew to run events at your club locations for a fee. (This could be a good side job for someone)

-discounted rates for state placers into local tournaments.

-set up a clear team indiana criteria that restricts anything but team indiana participants.

-quarterly meetings with ISWA reps. A month prior a meeting with club reps and ISWA rep.

-Club tutoring to help newer clubs.

 

Thats good for now

[TripleB]

I'm not sure if any of these were brought up as I've been off INdianamat all weekend and my eyes started bleeding and had to stop reading but:

 

1) Cut off Folkstyle state at Schoolboys

2) shorten Folkstyle season or start it earlier, move Elem duals to before Christmas break, start Folk season Jan 1, have state the weekend after HS state. 

3) extend Freestyle season, I know it would mean it went past central regionals, so what. Have state memorial day weekend or the week before. 

Wow we posted those ideas at the same time

[warsawwrestling]

I won't hold that against you. Lol. Those are some great ideas you have there!

[AJ]

So, it seems that to bolster freestyle the first thing we should do is make changes to folkstyle?  

 

Folkstyle is the ISWA's golden goose.... Start making too many changes or cuts to that and our state may be in real trouble...

 

 

Various ideas:

 

Top 4 at any local tournament qualifies for freestyle state.

 

For every local tournament you compete you get $2 off your state entry fee...

 

Divide our state into 4 regions... have a regional tournament and take the top 8 from each region and make freestyle state a exciting and prestigious event...

[GrecoCoach]

1. Get rid of folkstyle state for school boy/girl and up. Use middle school state and ISHAA state as qualifiers for National events. Have a folkstyle season for youth starting Nov/Dec with state being the week before high school sectionals. Than get freestyle rolling at this point. Gives youth extra 3 weeks for beginners

 

2 qualifiers for intermediate down. Maybe 1 qualifier for cadet & schoolboy. Open for juniors up Offer discount for more kids that get more qualifiers than required!

 

State Pricing: intermediate and down &30, with $2 off per extra qualifiers over the 2 required.

Schoolboy & Cadets $40, with $3 off per extra qualifiers over the 1 required. Juniors and up $50, with $5 off per qualifier.

 

Wavers for Team Indiana events that happen during freestyle time frame and injury waver from an appropriate and relevant to the injury. Example emergency medical clinic writing a note for a concussion. (Not qualified to clear concussion)

 

Plus several other things spit balling here......

-Club development help

-ISWA sets up a crew to run events at your club locations for a fee. (This could be a good side job for someone)

-discounted rates for state placers into local tournaments.

-set up a clear team indiana criteria that restricts anything but team indiana participants.

-quarterly meetings with ISWA reps. A month prior a meeting with club reps and ISWA rep.

-Club tutoring to help newer clubs.

 

Thats good for now

Thanks for your ideas.  I'm not an ISWA board member anymore, but I was on the board for 12 years.  A lot of these have been considered and discussed.  I'm not trying to simply dismiss your ideas, but just want to point out some challenges with some of them...

 

1 - I like and support this idea.  Schoolboys already have a state tournament at middle school state (with some Novice and Cadets mixed in).  Cadets and Juniors have high school state, though ISWA Folkstyle State is a great opportunity for the better JV kids if it is moved up to the week after high school state.

 

2 - I have no problem with keeping the qualifying rule for the little ones and not for the bigger kids.  However, your pricing model, while great in theory, would be an absolute nightmare to implement at state.  That's a different price for each individual wrestler.  The only possible way to even try it would be to require every qualifying tournament to use track wrestling and get track wrestling to create a pricing formula specific to each age division.  I just don't think it is possible.

 

Waivers for ISWA national team members during freestyle season and documented medical/injuries could be managed and help the wrestlers in tough situations.

 

Discounts for accomplishments like placing at state starts to get into IHSAA violations as monetary awards.  This was explored for national team pricing once and was dismissed when it was learned that it could impact eligibility.

 

The ISWA already meets every month - some driving from as far as Jeffersonville and South Bend.  For a couple of years, meetings were sometimes held up north or down south, but very few clubs/reps came to these meetings, so they stopped.  The Section Directors are available to contact with any issues to take to the board - That's one of their main responsibilities.

 

ISWA volunteers have helped new clubs set up and run tournaments their first year.  The development is there if it's requested.

 

I'm not sure what "clear team indiana criteria" you're talking about.  Juniors are experimenting with a team selection procedure that is similar to some of the top states in the country.  Everyone else has very standard criteria for earning a spot on Team Indiana.

[TripleB]

Yes AJ Folksytle and the rise of Folkstyle is killing Freestyle. When I was out in Iowa, the general consensus, outside of the 2 qualifier blowback was that 5-6 weeks was too short to completely alter a training style. 

[UncleJimmy]

It's a "business" ran by volunteers, agreed. Let's take a 21st century approach to the volunteer wrestling business and run it as such with members as "stakeholders". I'm positive this is not exactly how the process works but hopefully not too far off.

 

1. We all have USAW cards I believe. I assume some of those dues filter to ISWA? We also pay entry fees for ISWA tourneys to offset costs and most of us (not all) are part of some type of local club that is affiliated or participates in ISWA events. As such, let's call us stakeholders.

 

2. Upon paying dues/tourney entry/club fees let's have all stakeholders fill out an info sheet that would include an email/contact info. I assume most of us have one of these in the 21st century. If not, even a mailing address would suffice.

 

3. ISWA can keep the current setup with meetings in Indy at which time the usual ideas/thoughts/changes can be presented/discussed.

 

4. Upon completion of these monthly/quarterly/yearly meetings a mass email update can be sent out to the stakeholders. Then it is up to me to read it/process it/discard it but the onus is off the Board. They've done there job and dispersed the necessary info to stakeholders.

 

5. Every year, the Board sends out the proposals/changes/policies that are up for vote via email to the stakeholders for approval/rejection. Again, the onus is then off the Board.."hey, you voted for this!" so there's no blame to be considered.

 

TL;DR...a public company (ISWA) has shareholders (wrestlers!). They have Board meetings at various locals thruout the country (Indy). Not all sharholders desire/can/will attend these meetings. However, thru shareholder communications (email or whatever) one can see what has transpired at the meetings. Once a year these public companies have a "shareholder meeting",(I don't know...maybe a FK/GK/FS State Tourney where a lot of shareholders might be? just a thought.). Most shareholders do not attend these meetings in far away locals, but they do get sent a proxy to vote whether they attend or not. Again, if they don't vote the vote goes for what Board recommends. Why can't we/ISWA do that...here's what the board has been presented and what we recommend, now cast your vote as a shareholder Yay or Nay.

 

What's this accomplish? Look..Nobody wants to bash a volunteer. They are angels and should be applauded not lambasted, but by virtue of appearing to be the Wizard of Oz behind a curtain making policy and changing on whims that is what has seemed to happen. If we can somehow get it to be a "company" of volunteer "shareholders" ran in a 21st century approach then the only people to blame would be ourselves for voting for a proposal that didn't work or not voting at all. But telling me I didn't vote because I didn't drive to Indy would be like Citigroup telling me I didn't vote because I didn't attend the yearly meeting in Delaware. That's not a plausible reason for my vote not to count in the 21st century.

 

I respect Mr. Hull for communicating. I respect all the volunteers of ISWA for all they do. I also respect the opinions of those who disagree. I hope it doesn't come to an AAU/USWF fissure. Let's get it to 1 vote for all ISWA "members" that can be voted via 21st century means.

 

Make ISWA Wrestling Great Again!

[TripleB]

I think all but #4 is already being done to some extent?

 

Minutes are sent to clubs I believe, it would be time consuming at first, but certainly possible to expand that to members.

 

The annual meeting is always in September, I do like the idea of sending out possible rule changes etc in advance. 

 

Let's hold an ISWA state convention, make it 2-3 days in the fall, have everyting under one roof, elections, socials, rule interpretaion meetings, socials tournament bids, socials, etc. socials. 

[Sig40]

Grecoref,

I get there is tons of 'national tournaments' most are just local tournaments that let surrounding states enter them. I am referring directly about ISWA's Nationsl tournament USA Nationals. I am also referring to ISWA national dual teams that they run for middle school and elementary. My main complaint was that anyone of these events should have appeased a 1 tournament exemption.

 

Nick-

Going to these events and doing well opens up the eyes to everyone that is there. I am not stating that top colleges coaches are there, but everyone who is there is starting to take notice of Indiana. Also I have seen brands brothers at Celtic elite in tournament in IL and at USA nationals. Either way my only point was why are kids that are wrestling every weekend getting hurt by this rule. Also we can't wait for Fargo, it's a shame we can't compete in the schoolboy duals.

[bigdanteague]

Here is what I am understanding from all of this.....

 

The ISWA screwed up last year by allowing waivers!  

The ISWA screwed up this year by not allowing waivers!

The qualifier requirement is a good thing!

The qualifier requirement is a bad thing!

Our kids should not be penalized for wrestling in a "National" Tournament (one of the 176 "National" Tournaments currently being conducted)

Our kids should wrestle FS/GR and not Folkstyle if they want to compete in Fargo!

If you don't agree with the poster then something is wrong with you!

If you want to express your opinion to the ISWA, attend a meeting, email them or call them.

If the ISWA was concerned about our opinions they would read this message board.

 

Lastly, what I really get out of this is the people who are passionate about our sport can't agree what is best for the sport. Maybe, just maybe, we should stop trying to prove "my idea is the best" and start working together to get this right before it's too late.

 

I have seen organizations split. I am old enough to remember the AAU/USWF battles. Good people on both sides were lost because they couldn't work together. Don't allow that to happen here.

 

The ISWA screwed up last year by allowing indiscriminate waivers at the last minute after many families had made sacrifices trying to to play by the rules.

 

The ISWA screwed up this year by being petulant and not offering any waivers.

 

Passive aggressiveness and blame shifting is not much more productive than bitching.

[grecoref]

Grecoref,

I get there is tons of 'national tournaments' most are just local tournaments that let surrounding states enter them. I am referring directly about ISWA's Nationsl tournament USA Nationals. I am also referring to ISWA national dual teams that they run for middle school and elementary. My main complaint was that anyone of these events should have appeased a 1 tournament exemption.

 

Nick-

Going to these events and doing well opens up the eyes to everyone that is there. I am not stating that top colleges coaches are there, but everyone who is there is starting to take notice of Indiana. Also I have seen brands brothers at Celtic elite in tournament in IL and at USA nationals. Either way my only point was why are kids that are wrestling every weekend getting hurt by this rule. Also we can't wait for Fargo, it's a shame we can't compete in the schoolboy duals.

 

I agree ISWA National Team Members should get a 1 event waiver. In fact, I wrote a formal proposal to the ISWA this year suggesting that.

[grecoref]

The ISWA screwed up last year by allowing indiscriminate waivers at the last minute after many families had made sacrifices trying to to play by the rules.

 

The ISWA screwed up this year by being petulant and not offering any waivers.

 

Passive aggressiveness and blame shifting is not much more productive than bitching

That was my point. Stop the bitching and start doing.

[HighCrotchNinja]

Off-season wrestling(freestyle, greco, OR folkstyle) builds winter champions.

 

I believe freestyle and greco are important styles of wrestling, but lets not take away from folkstyle and all of its benefits.

 

Freestyle and greco isn't 'dying' in the state, but isn't being implemented into systems as much as its used too.

 

If you want to wrestle folkstyle year round, cheers for you.

 

If you want to work on/develop your freestyle or greco game, cheers for you.

[WaltHarris]

Btw, wasn't Center Grove's freestyle tournament cancelled due to low registration and the few entries sent over to Perry's fs tournament?  If we have this large glut of youth in Indy who desired a qualifying tournament, why did they not take advantage of Center Grove's event?  I apologize.  Maybe I am just not that smart.  But I don't understand why we had to cancel a well publicized Indy tournament at Center Grove and then subsequently had to manufacture another event at Warren that no one knew about.