SIACfan Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 I'm curious how you can tell kids from California work harder than ones in California based off of per capita numbers. ??? I can only guess that you meant to ask "...how you can tell kids from Iowa work harder than ones in California..." I did not say &/or mean to insinuate that kids anywhere work harder than ones from anywhere else. I have merely presented the facts. And the fact is that while California has a good number of NCAA qualifiers, it is not very good when considering how many they have in relation to their population. That in no way demeans the hard work of the qualifiers they do have. It only demonstrates that many states (Indiana included) get more out of their population than what California is getting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD92 Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Just let Y2 put words in your mouth and be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Just let Y2 put words in your mouth and be happy. Thanks for joining in, go back to recruiting Konrath please. gogoplata89 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 ??? I can only guess that you meant to ask "...how you can tell kids from Iowa work harder than ones in California..." I did not say &/or mean to insinuate that kids anywhere work harder than ones from anywhere else. I have merely presented the facts. And the fact is that while California has a good number of NCAA qualifiers, it is not very good when considering how many they have in relation to their population. That in no way demeans the hard work of the qualifiers they do have. It only demonstrates that many states (Indiana included) get more out of their population than what California is getting. Yes that is what I meant. I would venture to guess that California ranks low in about anything per capita such as NFL players, NBA players, etc. In fact California with 368 NBA players only ranks 21st per capita. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Android Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 I do not think per capita is the be all end all. Number of qualifiers per competitors would carry more weight with me. I believe the NWCA tracks this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD92 Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Thanks for joining in, go back to recruiting Konrath please. hahahahahaha....jumping on the MD recruits bandwagon now? LMAO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 hahahahahaha....jumping on the MD recruits bandwagon now? LMAO Been on it a while, Mater Dei wouldn't have a wrestling team if they didn't recruit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 I do not think per capita is the be all end all. Number of qualifiers per competitors would carry more weight with me. I believe the NWCA tracks this. I don't disagree, & I would be interested in seeing those numbers. It would be likely that you will find that Pennsylvania & Iowa have higher than average participation rates that help translate into their high per capita numbers. It only makes sense that strong wrestling states are strong because they have strong tradition & interest in the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD92 Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Been on it a while, Mater Dei wouldn't have a wrestling team if they didn't recruit. I see what you are doing there. The old, "private/parochial schools wouldn't be in business if they didn't recruit students" routine. While that may or may not be true for some P/P schools, I don't believe that MD actively recruits students. Sure, they contact 8th graders at their feeder schools so they can take their placement exams, register for their freshman classes, etc. My kid just went through that process. But they don't contact the public middle schools to "recruit" those kids. They wouldn't turn those kids away if they chose to enroll and could pay the significantly higher tuition. But they aren't seeking them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1prouddad Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Thanks for joining in, go back to recruiting Konrath please.Ouch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 Yes that is what I meant. I would venture to guess that California ranks low in about anything per capita such as NFL players, NBA players, etc. In fact California with 368 NBA players only ranks 21st per capita. I did just a little research on this and found different results. I'm not sure where you got your numbers, but there are only 30 NBA teams with 13 players per team thus 390 NBA players total. So if 368 of those players are from California they should rename it the CBA (California Basketball Association). Actually what I found was from the 2014/2015 season & there were 57 players from California which was more than double the number from the next highest state - NY with 22. From my quick number crunching, it ranked California 4th in NBA players per capita. Oddly enough, Indiana had 14 NBA players which ranked them 2nd per capita. So it seems Indiana's reputation as a basketball state is not unfounded. Furthermore, I checked NFL player numbers as well & found that California had the 2nd most players (203) behind only Florida (204). That left California as the 10th ranked state in NFL players per capita. According to my numbers, California ranks 29th per capita for NCAA qualifiers. So it appears your hypothesis does not hold up. I'm not saying these numbers are absolute, they are merely based on a quick internet search & subsequent number crunching on the subjects mentioned. But I am sticking with my contention that California is not truly that strong of a wrestling state, but rather that they produce a good number of elite wrestlers because of sheer volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 These are the numbers I used, I didn't look too far into them since I hate basketball. http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/birthplaces.cgi They were closer to all-time numbers than just this year. Still per capita is not a good measure when you talk of mega states like California or Texas. Wrestling is a more rural sport, I remember hearing something like in Philadelphia there are only a couple schools with wrestling. That's a city of 1.5 million people and close to 10% of the state's population that doesn't wrestle. About 10 years ago someone was preaching that Kansas was the best wrestling state because per capita they had more Fargo All-Americans than anyone else. I have never really been on the per capita bandwagon and really never will when talking about something like sports. P.S. I thought class basketball killed the sport in our state! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 I am not trying to contend that per capita is the best measurement, but I do believe it is better than simply looking at the raw numbers. As someone suggested earlier, a ratio of NCAA qualifiers per state vs HS wrestling participants per state would be a better judge but I was unable to find such info. I did find an article about the California HS Wrestling State Tournament that stated that California has over 800 High Schools with a wrestling program. That means that California had 1 NCAA qualifier this year for roughly every 42 HS wrestling programs. It is also interesting to note that, according to wikipedia, California has 4,495 High Schools. Which means that roughly only 1 in 5 California HS's have a wrestling program. I still contend that California's high number of qualifiers is largely due to their sheer volume. Does anyone know how many High Schools in Indiana has a wrestling program? That info would be useful in giving insight into the quality of our wrestling in comparison to California's. I would venture to say that it would not be to far off from California's. Thus, further proof that California is not truly an elite level wrestling state, it simply appears that way due to their enormous size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 I don't disagree that California has good numbers because of size at all. At the same time when using a metric such as that, they are penalized greatly because of their size. Here are the high school participation numbers http://www.nfhs.org/ParticipationStatics/PDF/2014-15_Participation_Survey_Results.pdf Wrestling is on page 9 The accuracy of this data though is shaky. I came across the spreadsheet for California's numbers from a few years ago and California had some REALLY high numbers for their wrestling teams. They have one team that claims to have 288 wrestlers on their team along with 8 others with over 100 on their team. Here is a link to the data. http://cifstate.org/coaches-admin/census/index Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 Alright according to this website, Indiana has 309 HS wrestling teams. From what I found, Indiana has 736 High Schools. So roughly 1 in every 2.4 Indiana HS's have a wrestling program, and this year there was 1 NCAA qualifier for roughly every 44 HS's. As I suspected, Indiana is really close to California in regards to quality (IN - 1/44 vs CA - 1/42). If California is an elite level wrestling state, then I contend so is Indiana. pjayroza 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 Again, according to the link you provided CA had 1 qualifier for every 1,388 HS participants while Indiana had 1 in 1,055. So once again, if California is an elite wrestling state then so to must be Indiana. This has done nothing but reinforce my thought that CA simply benefits from their size. To compare them to the truly elite wrestling states such as PA, IA, OH, NJ & yes even IL is misguided by volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 I'd like to know what your definition of elite is, is it top 10, top 5, or what. I would not put Indiana on California's level just on NCAA qualifiers. California had 2 NCAA Champs along with a runner-up and another All-American. Indiana has had four All-Americans the past five years total. California had 3 in the round of 12 to Indiana's 1 also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 (edited) I'd like to know what your definition of elite is, is it top 10, top 5, or what. I would not put Indiana on California's level just on NCAA qualifiers. California had 2 NCAA Champs along with a runner-up and another All-American. Indiana has had four All-Americans the past five years total. California had 3 in the round of 12 to Indiana's 1 also. Again you are looking at raw overall numbers without giving consideration to volume. So California had 4 AA's to Indiana's 1. They also have a 5.9 to 1 advantage in population & from the source you provided a 3.6 to 1 advantage in HS wrestlers. Therefore, once again if you project Indiana's numbers by those ratio's then Indiana stacks up very similarly. I'm not saying that California wrestling sucks, but they aren't producing elite wrestlers on a percentage basis with their volume of wrestlers anywhere near what the best states are doing. How many AA's did PA, IA, NJ, OH & IL have? Edited March 24, 2016 by SIACfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 Again you are looking at raw overall numbers without giving consideration to volume. So California had 4 AA's to Indiana's 1. They also have a 5.9 to 1 advantage in population & from the source you provided a 3.6 to 1 advantage in HS wrestlers. Therefore, once again if you project Indiana's numbers by those ratio's then Indiana stacks up very similarly. I'm not saying that California wrestling sucks, but they aren't producing elite wrestlers on a percentage basis with their volume of wrestlers anywhere near what the best states are doing. California had 4 AA's vs. Indiana's 0. Over the past 5 years they have had 26 vs. Indiana's 4. That's 6.5 times more. It can also be argued Indiana is a flash in the pan as we had 3 AA's one year and 1 the other with three years being blanked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 My mistake on the Indiana AA numbers. California stacks up well in raw numbers, but not in percentages - at least not with the truly elite states. I contend that their raw numbers benefit from their sheer volume, this has been my main contention the entire time. Do you believe otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 My mistake on the Indiana AA numbers. California stacks up well in raw numbers, but not in percentages - at least not with the truly elite states. I contend that their raw numbers benefit from their sheer volume, this has been my main contention the entire time. Do you believe otherwise? I don't disagree at all. California's size plays a big part, just as much as Indiana being in the middle of the hotbed for wrestling does for us. California for all intent and purposes should be a little better, but things like only 3(now 4) DI programs in the state play a huge part. California is definitely on the second and sometimes third tier as far as state strength. I see it as Pennsylvania as easily #1, then you have states like Ohio, New Jersey, Illinois, California, Iowa, and Michigan. The third tier you would have states like Indiana, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Missouri, New York, amongst others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 (edited) I don't disagree at all. California's size plays a big part, just as much as Indiana being in the middle of the hotbed for wrestling does for us. California for all intent and purposes should be a little better, but things like only 3(now 4) DI programs in the state play a huge part. California is definitely on the second and sometimes third tier as far as state strength. I see it as Pennsylvania as easily #1, then you have states like Ohio, New Jersey, Illinois, California, Iowa, and Michigan. The third tier you would have states like Indiana, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Missouri, New York, amongst others. So in the end we don't disagree all that much. I just wouldn't list California with the other 2nd tier states because they clearly aren't getting as much from their overall numbers as those states do. Edited March 24, 2016 by SIACfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novice Bat Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 I don't disagree at all. California's size plays a big part, just as much as Indiana being in the middle of the hotbed for wrestling does for us. California for all intent and purposes should be a little better, but things like only 3(now 4) DI programs in the state play a huge part. California is definitely on the second and sometimes third tier as far as state strength. I see it as Pennsylvania as easily #1, then you have states like Ohio, New Jersey, Illinois, California, Iowa, and Michigan. The third tier you would have states like Indiana, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Missouri, New York, amongst others. i could see Minnestoa being listed as a second tier. Pennsylvania is unanimously number one in my book. I feel like you left out Oklahoma in the first tier list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmills Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 He would not live in Indiana. loscoz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Android Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 He would not have blown weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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