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Any change of hearts?

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What was the percentage of total wrestlers in the tournament from each of those classes, those have no context without that info

Teams---Forfeits---Wrestlers

1A---102---526---902

2A---102---330---1098

3A---101---120---1294

None---3---38---4

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Teams---Forfeits---Wrestlers

1A---102---526---902

2A---102---330---1098

3A---101---120---1294

None---3---38---4

Those numbers seem a little off in numbers of wrestlers compared to number of forfeits

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I'm not exactly for or against but here are a few things to consider.

1. Why don't they class track, tennis, golf, cross country?

2. Obviously larger schools have a better chance at winning state as a team.

3. The percentages are off...the 1308 taken from 3a is from a much larger population than just one-third of the classes. The percentages probably work out as close when you take it from the population of each school.

4. We may never see a small school win a state championship again unless you count mater dei as a small school

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1. Why don't they class track, tennis, golf, cross country?

They should, no reason they shouldn't

2. Obviously larger schools have a better chance at winning state as a team.

And statistics show more state qualifiers, placers, and champs

 

3. The percentages are off...the 1308 taken from 3a is from a much larger population than just one-third of the classes. The percentages probably work out as close when you take it from the population of each school.

Explain, not sure I understand

 

4. We may never see a small school win a state championship again unless you count mater dei as a small school

If you want to count them as a small school then so be it, they are very much an exception to the rule. They have 39 state qualifiers over the past 7 years compared to 139 from the other 1A schools. Note they are a bubble 1A(3 class) school as they fluctuate between classes.

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I'm not exactly for or against but here are a few things to consider.

1. Why don't they class track, tennis, golf, cross country?

2. Obviously larger schools have a better chance at winning state as a team.

3. The percentages are off...the 1308 taken from 3a is from a much larger population than just one-third of the classes. The percentages probably work out as close when you take it from the population of each school.

4. We may never see a small school win a state championship again unless you count mater dei as a small school

I am definitely for, and here are my replies to your considerations:

 

1. I totally agree, those should be classed provided that the sports have enough participating schools.

2. Correct

3. If you have numbers you think people should see, feel free to run them.  Why is it always up to Y2 to run everyone's numbers?

4. Also, correct.

I gotta get faster at replying....

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I am definitely for, and here are my replies to your considerations:

 

1. I totally agree, those should be classed provided that the sports have enough participating schools.

2. Correct

3. If you have numbers you think people should see, feel free to run them.  Why is it always up to Y2 to run everyone's numbers?

4. Also, correct.I gotta get faster at replying....

I am definitely for, and here are my replies to your considerations:

 

1. I totally agree, those should be classed provided that the sports have enough participating schools.

2. Correct

3. If you have numbers you think people should see, feel free to run them.  Why is it always up to Y2 to run everyone's numbers?

4. Also, correct.I gotta get faster at replying....

It is up to Y2 because the burden of proof lies with those wishing to change the (excellent) status quo

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I am definitely for, and here are my replies to your considerations:

 

1. I totally agree, those should be classed provided that the sports have enough participating schools.

2. Correct

3. If you have numbers you think people should see, feel free to run them.  Why is it always up to Y2 to run everyone's numbers?

4. Also, correct.

I gotta get faster at replying....

 

It's not always up to Joe. I leave it up to you MR. MATH! :)

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He has provided mounds of data to support his claim.  It is not enough for someone to say, "Yeah, but what about this data?  I am not sure what the data is, but I am pretty sure it supports my point."  Once a person makes a statement like that the burden of proof is on him/her.


It's not always up to Joe. I leave it up to you MR. MATH! :)

 

Haha, that's rich:}

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At this point, I am in favor of keeping with the current setup (classed TEAM, single INDIVIDUAL class)

 

To make sense of it, each of the arguments needs to be addressed

 

Goals of classing individual state (as I remember them, let me know if I have left some out):

 

1.  Encourage more participation at smaller schools

2.  "Better" wrestling in general as more kids are involved

3.  More visibility for wrestlers from small schools to college coaches

 

These specific goals take away the whole "it's not fair" argument because making it fair is not a stated goal of classed wrestling

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In looking at Joe's forfeit data -- I noted that there are 79 forfeits coming from one sectional (Southport).  That is far and away more forfeits than any other sectional -- only 2 others are even over 40 (45 Lafayette Jefferson / 48 Twin Lakes).

 

Out of 860 forfeits across the state, that means that nearly 10% of them are from one Sectional.

 

So, I think you could argue that if we want to see the number of forfeits around the state decrease, a possibility would be to form a great inner city youth wrestling program that will prop up the numbers for this area which is clearly lacking the numbers.  Within that sectional, however, Perry Meridian clearly has a great youth program.  Do we really think that classing the individual tournament is going to solve the issues with numbers at that sectional?

 

I do not

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I have read some good discussion on this topic. Very thought invoking. 

Let me just say this: It appears to me that there is no agreement on whether or not wrestling in Indiana should be classed. Think of it this way, put two kids out on the mat and let them show you who the better wrestler is. No more statistics on the number of wrestlers who qualified for each class. Just let them wrestle. If somebody has the desire to win a state title, they can do it no matter what school they are from. Andrew Howe was one of the best wrestlers to come from Indiana and he went to a small school. Howe is not the only one though, but I'm not going to sit here and list all of the successful wrestlers from small schools (research it yourself). 

One final thought: It also appears to me that there are too many dads on this forum who are squabbling about unsure facts and statistics. Here is a statistic, probably 80% or more of wrestling dads never wrestled in high school. I know that there will be replies saying "What do you mean? I wrestled in high school!" I am not referring to the 20% that wrestled in high school. You know who you are, sitting on this forum complaining about "classed wrestling". Imo, keep it the way it is. Why fix it if it isn't broken? Oh and by the way, guys who bring up statistics listen GOOD, you should know that there is something called an outlier when gathering data. Those outliers are wrestlers who do not fit the statistics that have been gathered. Let those outliers continue to not be limited by statistics and let the best man win. I'm glad I didn't see a statistic and limit how far I went because the statistic said I probably wont make it. 

Edited by futureRECORDholder

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I have read some good discussion on this topic. Very thought invoking. 

Let me just say this: It appears to me that there is no agreement on whether or not wrestling in Indiana should be classed. Think of it this way, put two kids out on the mat and let them show you who the better wrestler is. No more statistics on the number of wrestlers who qualified for each class. Just let them wrestle. If somebody has the desire to win a state title, they can do it no matter what school they are from. Andrew Howe was one of the best wrestlers to come from Indiana and he went to a small school. Howe is not the only one though, but I'm not going to sit here and list all of the successful wrestlers from small schools (research it yourself). 

One final thought: It also appears to me that there are too many dads on this forum who are squabbling about unsure facts and statistics. Here is a statistic, probably 80% or more of wrestling dads never wrestled in high school. I know that there will be replies saying "What do you mean? I wrestled in high school!" I am not referring to the 20% that wrestled in high school. You know who you are, sitting on this forum complaining about "classed wrestling". Imo, keep it the way it is. Why fix it if it isn't broken? Oh and by the way, guys who bring up statistics listen GOOD, you should know that there is something called an outlier when gathering data. Those outliers are wrestlers who do not fit the statistics that have been gathered. Let those outliers continue to not be limited by statistics and let the best man win. I'm glad I didn't see a statistic and limit how far I went because the statistic said I probably wont make it. 

Hanover Central is 2A in 3 classes and actually on the bubble for being in the top of half if the state is split into two classes.

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With the logic that the small schools don't have an equal opportunity, why don't we just start handing out participation ribbons to the entire state so everyone can have their share of success?

 

Coming from a "small school", I would not only be disappointed, but I would be offended. I was never a State Qualifier, and that eats at me still to this day. Had wrestling been classed during my high school days, I probably would have been one. However, I have great pride in my school and my community and that's what makes it special when an athlete from our school becomes a State Qualifier in a sport. If the title "State Qualifier" was just handed to us because people think "it's not fair", I take offense to that because it's not supposed to be easy to be a state qualifier.

Lastly, I wrestled in college in Virginia for two years and the wrestlers there were jealous of the state tournament we have. They had 3 classes and just expanded to 6, and it seems as if signing up for wrestling in Virginia is an automatic ticket to the state tournament. What I saw last Saturday was astonishing. Not many states have what we have and I would rather be a 3x Semi-State Qualifier in a state tournament where I had to overcome "odds" to become a state qualifier, rather than see the system change so that it becomes easier for the athletes in small communities and I know many of the athletes in smaller schools would agree with me. 

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As long as MD competes in the larger class I am fine because they would annihilate anyone with their school enrollment size

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With the logic that the small schools don't have an equal opportunity, why don't we just start handing out participation ribbons to the entire state so everyone can have their share of success?

 

Coming from a "small school", I would not only be disappointed, but I would be offended. I was never a State Qualifier, and that eats at me still to this day. Had wrestling been classed during my high school days, I probably would have been one. However, I have great pride in my school and my community and that's what makes it special when an athlete from our school becomes a State Qualifier in a sport. If the title "State Qualifier" was just handed to us because people think "it's not fair", I take offense to that because it's not supposed to be easy to be a state qualifier.

Lastly, I wrestled in college in Virginia for two years and the wrestlers there were jealous of the state tournament we have. They had 3 classes and just expanded to 6, and it seems as if signing up for wrestling in Virginia is an automatic ticket to the state tournament. What I saw last Saturday was astonishing. Not many states have what we have and I would rather be a 3x Semi-State Qualifier in a state tournament where I had to overcome "odds" to become a state qualifier, rather than see the system change so that it becomes easier for the athletes in small communities and I know many of the athletes in smaller schools would agree with me. 

The classic "give everyone a ribbon" response, I love it.

 

I know Rensselaer has had some good success on the gridiron, are they disappointed it's only at the 2A level and they don't get to play Penn or Merrillville?

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Here's what I was thinking with the numbers and 3 classes. These are made up but just using as an example. And again..I think for a team championship it should be classed.

 

So if there are 100 schools in 3a let's say that's 140,000 STUDENTS (not wrestlers)

100 in 2a with 70000 students.

100 schools in 1a with 35,000 students.

 

So....just using these figures, 3a wrestlers should account for 57.1% of the state qualifiers, 2a 28.6% and 1a 14.3%

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Here's what I was thinking with the numbers and 3 classes. These are made up but just using as an example. And again..I think for a team championship it should be classed.

 

So if there are 100 schools in 3a let's say that's 140,000 STUDENTS (not wrestlers)

100 in 2a with 70000 students.

100 schools in 1a with 35,000 students.

 

So....just using these figures, 3a wrestlers should account for 57.1% of the state qualifiers, 2a 28.6% and 1a 14.3%

So should state placers and state champions...but they don't.

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After reviewing the many arguments, data, statistics, and other states' state tournaments, I believe class wrestling can grow the sport of wrestling in Indiana. I was initially overlooking the entire sport based upon the atmosphere of Bankers Life during the finals anticipating Red and Lee, but then I thought, "It would be awesome if a team like Prairie Heights was in contention for a state championship." The crowd eruptions I was previously pointing towards has nothing to do with us being a single class. I remember watching the 1A team fans going nuts at the IHSWCA Team State watching their teams go back and forth in wild dual meets. Small schools rarely appear in our finals, and when they do, they have the crowd behind them. I would love to see MORE small schools in the IHSAA State Finals. The argument of being THE state champion is kind of overrated and overused. I understand population is a slight factor, but we have enough depth in Indiana for talent to be spread out and for kids to wrestle great matches. I don't think a kid like Mason Parris would feel any different winning a 2A state title vs. a 3A title. Classing wrestling would grow the sport in smaller schools, see more events pop up, and it would be a regular thing in Indiana. I'm all for it.

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This is why I like Indiana wrestling, 1 class, 1 champion. If you wanna be the best in the state, you have to wrestle THE WHOLE state. Its simple.

There are 14 champs, maybe we can arrange a super champion and see Cummings vs. Streck and Parris vs. Red.

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The qualifiers and placers are pretty close ...Champs and top 4 are off. Thanks for the info y2

 

These numbers show me they aren't that far off. I still like a classed team dual format. Undecided on individual but still leaning towards one class.

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The qualifiers and placers are pretty close ...Champs and top 4 are off. Thanks for the info y2

 

These numbers show me they aren't that far off. I still like a classed team dual format. Undecided on individual but still leaning towards one class.

3.5% is quite a bit to be off on qualifiers

4.5% is quite a bit to be off on placers

 

Over the past 7 years(qualifiers) and 6 years for placers the numbers are worse.

 

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Q and P.jpg

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