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Any change of hearts?

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Here is the cliff notes version since you must be new to the conversation. I have coached at a small school and a big school, they are worlds apart in many facets of athletics. On top of that I believe wrestling would grow at the small school level where it looks to be dying.

 

We've had this discussion before, so no cliff notes version needed. Wrestling is an individual sport, something the IHSAA has agreed upon. In many facets, I agree that small schools and big schools vary, just the sheer numbers game alone sets that apart. I mean a school of 1500+ students should definitely be able to field a squad of 14 wrestlers but a student body of say 400 students, some of the kids that might be wrestlers at your school are now basketball players. So classing wrestling will not bring that basketball player over to wrestling. The sport is tough, practices are tough. You are gonna have an easier time finding 14 kids out if 1500 that can withstand those conditions, a school of 400 may not. So therefore do I soften practice to get 14 kids of different weight to fill a full team. Not gonna happen for my team. I would rather have 8 that will withstand those conditions and compete hard no matter who is in front of us.

 

States with classes wrestling are battling the same issues we are. The sport is losing numbers period. Country wide not just Indiana. If class is the cure all to better sports then once basketball classed we would have seen a rise in attendance not less, our state would be producing even more NBA players. If a kid is really good at wrestling will he leave a small school, AKA transfer? I would likely send mine elsewhere and not keep him at a small school. it happens in basketball now. I just don't believe that classing the sport is the cure all.

Why are we seeing more football players go to the NFL now? Did classing that sport hurt?

 

The thing is you don't need to soften anything at your school like you want to believe. I know Shenandoah had quite a few very talented kids this year. Let's pretend we are in a classed system and your team comes home with a few top 4 finishers, which I would say would have been feasible. The school will hold a convocation/pep rally to send them off, you'll get a police and fire truck escort into town, you'll get news media covering your kids. There will be a BUZZ about wrestling at your school. If you want evidence go check out the Lawrenceburg Twitter account.

 

Now what affect will that have on your program? Can you measure it? Maybe, maybe not, but I guarantee more kids will know what wrestling is, more will join the youth club. More people in the town will be talking about wrestling and maybe even attend your events. All things I would say are good for your team and the sport.

 

More kids getting recognition for their hard work and dedication is never a bad thing. Your kids will still work their butts off to attain their goals, you will still have hard practices, not much will change.

Since we started with qualifiers, I was keeping with the theme. What are the placing numbers by class? (I'm sure someone has posted I didn't see them)

3A 72.47%

2A 22.77%

1A 4.76%

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The reason we class sports is because the powers that be believe that school size is very indicative of potential. Thus if you say school size matters then you are saying we should have a classed system.

 

In a SINGLE class system we are saying that all 3000 wrestlers that step on the mat at sectional have an EQUAL shot at going to state. The statistics show that everyone is NOT equal.

 

 

Just like you had the 1A vs. 2A, 3A vs. 4A, and 5A vs. 6A football championships right?

 

Saying all 3000 wrestlers have the same shot ignores all those other kids in the room, and the total number of students they represent. 14 wrestlers out of 400 students, means that each wrestler represents 28.5 students at his school. Whereas 14 wrestlers from a school with 3000 kids, means that kid is representing 214.2 students. So should someone that represents nearly 10 times the student population as the other wrestler have more success on average? Would it be fair if it worked out otherwise?

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They won't let us.

 

You fell off topic, again.

Who won't?

Rule 2-3 Classification by Enrollment; Different Classes Assignment; Change Class Assignment

School enrollment figures used for classifying Schools shall be the enrollment in grades 9-12 for all students, as certified in the annual report filed with the State Department of Education in a classification year.

a. Schools with single gender enrollment shall double the certified enrollment figures for classification purposes.

b. A School may be assigned to different Classes in different sports.

c. A School shall be assigned to a Class by the IHSAA and shall enter the IHSAA tournament in that assigned Class unless it notifies the Association, in writing, that it wishes to move up One (1) or more Classes. This notification shall (1) accompany the submission of the School’s enrollment figures and (2) be effective for the succeeding Two (2) years. A School may choose to move up in a specific sport/s.

Saying all 3000 wrestlers have the same shot ignores all those other kids in the room, and the total number of students they represent. 14 wrestlers out of 400 students, means that each wrestler represents 28.5 students at his school. Whereas 14 wrestlers from a school with 3000 kids, means that kid is representing 214.2 students. So should someone that represents nearly 10 times the student population as the other wrestler have more success on average? Would it be fair if it worked out otherwise?

Once again this a reason to class wrestling because you are saying a 1A wrestler has a lot less chance to qualify and place at state than a 3A varsity wrestler. It doesn't matter how many students one wrestler represents as they are all on equal ground come that first whistle at sectional.

 

I'll try to say this again...if we are classing ANY sport we are saying that a school of 2000 students has advantages over ones with 1000 students as does one with 1000 students over a school with 500 students. That is why we class sports. If we do NOT class a sport we are saying all varsity athletes are on equal ground. If you are telling me that a 3A wrestler and 1A wrestler are not on equal ground that is saying we should class the sport.

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The reason we class sports is because the powers that be believe that school size is very indicative of potential. Thus if you say school size matters then you are saying we should have a classed system.

 

In a SINGLE class system we are saying that all 3000 wrestlers that step on the mat at sectional have an EQUAL shot at going to state. The statistics show that everyone is NOT equal.

 

 

Just like you had the 1A vs. 2A, 3A vs. 4A, and 5A vs. 6A football championships right?

So you wouldn't want the finalists to meet the week after they are crowned class champions.

 

Got it.

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So you wouldn't want the finalists to meet the week after they are crowned class champions.

 

Got it.

If they'd want to in the Allyourbase championships then fine, but my guess is we'd still have a good gauge on who the "true" best was based off in-season or out of season results. Much like they know in Ohio, Michigan, and Illinois.

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Y2, we had a pep session and paraded our qualifier thru the halls this year with the band playing and all for his departure. We hope that it draws more interest in our sport, we hope having the opportunity to compete in the IHSWCA State duals adds to that interest as well. I just want mine to compete against everybody, one class, best of the best, that's me. I want our sport to grow, believe me. I beg kids to try it at the Jr high level, even while my oldest was at New Castle, bball was always king. I have been involved in wrestling since I was 12 years old minus a few years in my early 20s. I even officiated a couple of years to give back to the sport I love. Wrestling needs more love on a national level, TV exposure on channels like ESPN, it needs to be more fan friendly, college riding time can be confusing to a novice fan and the international styles are even worse. If you have to watch video to determine a winner, how can a novice fan keep up?

 

Football is on fire, fan interest is at an all time high thus driving the interest up even at the local levels. Football has been classed most of my life so I know no different. I do realize a large school will stand a better chance of building a 6'4" 300lb line easier than a small school and have multiple athletes that run 4.5 40's. We would be lucky to produce one a decade, but you don't have to be an outstanding athlete to be a great wrestler.

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Who won't?

Rule 2-3 Classification by Enrollment; Different Classes Assignment; Change Class Assignment

School enrollment figures used for classifying Schools shall be the enrollment in grades 9-12 for all students, as certified in the annual report filed with the State Department of Education in a classification year.

a. Schools with single gender enrollment shall double the certified enrollment figures for classification purposes.

b. A School may be assigned to different Classes in different sports.

c. A School shall be assigned to a Class by the IHSAA and shall enter the IHSAA tournament in that assigned Class unless it notifies the Association, in writing, that it wishes to move up One (1) or more Classes. This notification shall (1) accompany the submission of the School’s enrollment figures and (2) be effective for the succeeding Two (2) years. A School may choose to move up in a specific sport/s.

Once again this a reason to class wrestling because you are saying a 1A wrestler has a lot less chance to qualify and place at state than a 3A varsity wrestler. It doesn't matter how many students one wrestler represents as they are all on equal ground come that first whistle at sectional.

 

I'll try to say this again...if we are classing ANY sport we are saying that a school of 2000 students has advantages over ones with 1000 students as does one with 1000 students over a school with 500 students. That is why we class sports. If we do NOT class a sport we are saying all varsity athletes are on equal ground. If you are telling me that a 3A wrestler and 1A wrestler are not on equal ground that is saying we should class the sport.

 

I would argue that for any prospective wrestler, no matter what size school they are attending, the chances are about equal. A kid at a big school has to get through 2-3 wrestlers at his weight just to make varsity. At a 1A school (with only a few exceptions) a kid who has never wrestled can walk right on and get a varsity spot. So should that kid have an equal chance of making state as the kid that beat out 3 kids for the spot?

 

I will concede the class argument has a great deal more merit when it relates to placers. 1A's at a rate of less than half the student populations, that doesn't suggest that their getting a completely fair shake. (but I still say the qualifier data suggests fairness)

 

There are many very committed coaches at small schools, and they put obscene amounts of time into it, yet many of them still struggle to field full teams. Does class wrestling get them a full roster? (maybe it will help, but we don't have any real numbers on NY which is the only state which has recently changed from single to multi-class) It would be interesting to see what happened with not only small schools but the participation rates statewide. What has happened in the ten years since implementation? (are numbers up or down) This would be the closest to an apples to apples comparison as we could get and would give us the short-term and long term (10 year) perspective on how the changes have affected HS wrestling in the state.

Edited by Westforkwhite

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Y2, we had a pep session and paraded our qualifier thru the halls this year with the band playing and all for his departure. We hope that it draws more interest in our sport, we hope having the opportunity to compete in the IHSWCA State duals adds to that interest as well. I just want mine to compete against everybody, one class, best of the best, that's me. I want our sport to grow, believe me. I beg kids to try it at the Jr high level, even while my oldest was at New Castle, bball was always king. I have been involved in wrestling since I was 12 years old minus a few years in my early 20s. I even officiated a couple of years to give back to the sport I love. Wrestling needs more love on a national level, TV exposure on channels like ESPN, it needs to be more fan friendly, college riding time can be confusing to a novice fan and the international styles are even worse. If you have to watch video to determine a winner, how can a novice fan keep up?

 

Football is on fire, fan interest is at an all time high thus driving the interest up even at the local levels. Football has been classed most of my life so I know no different. I do realize a large school will stand a better chance of building a 6'4" 300lb line easier than a small school and have multiple athletes that run 4.5 40's. We would be lucky to produce one a decade, but you don't have to be an outstanding athlete to be a great wrestler.

My guess is that you'd have a bigger following if more kids went to state. My guess is if you'd get a state champ they'd probably get a sign outside of town that says "Home of State Champion Billy Smith." Shenandoah has had two state qualifiers over the past six years, what if that was two per year? More people would take notice of wrestling at the school and it might be easier for you to say to those middle school kids, "hey look at these guys with state medals. do you want one?"

 

Are you really wanting to say that Brycen Denny, JC Herring, Jose Diaz, etc aren't some of the best? If you are concerned about wrestling the best, I'd recommend hitting up the Al Smith, Mooresville Classic, or other big in-season events. Then on top of that you could hit up off season events like Fargo, FloNationals, USAW Nationals, etc to go see the best. There is no limit to seeing the best competition, in-season or out of season.

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I would argue that for any prospective wrestler, no matter what size school they are attending, the chances are about equal. A kid at a big school has to get through 2-3 wrestlers at his weight just to make varsity. At a 1A school (with only a few exceptions) a kid who has never wrestled can walk right on and get a varsity spot. So should that kid have an equal chance of making state as the kid that beat out 3 kids for the spot?

 

I will concede the class argument has a great deal more merit when it relates to placers. 1A's at a rate of less than half the student populations, that doesn't suggest that their getting a completely fair shake. (but I still say the qualifier data suggests fairness)

 

There are many very committed coaches at small schools, and they put obscene amounts of time into it, yet many of them still struggle to field full teams. Does class wrestling get them a full roster? (maybe it will help, but we don't have any real numbers on NY which is the only state which has recently changed from single to multi-class) It would be interesting to see what happened with not only small schools but the participation rates statewide. What has happened in the ten years since implementation? (are numbers up or down) This would be the closest to an apples to apples comparison as we could get and would give us the short-term and long term (10 year) perspective on how the changes have affected HS wrestling in the state.

No the Forfeit data actually showed states with classed wrestling have about 1 more FF per team than we do in our single class system... There was another thread a while ago with all the data in it but classing actually hurt the overall participation rates...

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No the Forfeit data actually showed states with classed wrestling have about 1 more FF per team than we do in our single class system... There was another thread a while ago with all the data in it but classing actually hurt the overall participation rates...

 

Other states had one more forfeit at the 3A level, but they had less forfeits at the 1A level. The net was essentially a wash.

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I would argue that for any prospective wrestler, no matter what size school they are attending, the chances are about equal. A kid at a big school has to get through 2-3 wrestlers at his weight just to make varsity. At a 1A school (with only a few exceptions) a kid who has never wrestled can walk right on and get a varsity spot. So should that kid have an equal chance of making state as the kid that beat out 3 kids for the spot?

 

I will concede the class argument has a great deal more merit when it relates to placers. 1A's at a rate of less than half the student populations, that doesn't suggest that their getting a completely fair shake. (but I still say the qualifier data suggests fairness)

 

There are many very committed coaches at small schools, and they put obscene amounts of time into it, yet many of them still struggle to field full teams. Does class wrestling get them a full roster? (maybe it will help, but we don't have any real numbers on NY which is the only state which has recently changed from single to multi-class) It would be interesting to see what happened with not only small schools but the participation rates statewide. What has happened in the ten years since implementation? (are numbers up or down) This would be the closest to an apples to apples comparison as we could get and would give us the short-term and long term (10 year) perspective on how the changes have affected HS wrestling in the state.

Even though you keep saying that big schools will produce more state qualifiers and placers, but yet they are equal? 

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Y2, I am not saying that at all about those wrestlers so please don't put words in my mouth. At a small school, our program is growing but it is centered around a class, it will have many more peaks and valleys than a larger school thru out the years. We are strengthening our schedule little by little but not everyone on our team can compete at that high level. We are very young and if we continue to develop on the mat, stay together and hungry, I like our chances. We have wrestlers that compete outside our state and we will continue to support them in their effort. Not all can afford to travel outside our state to hit national tournaments and our club doesn't have enough financial support to offset some of those costs. Mine personally wrestled in Pa, Ohio, Ky, Illinois, Michigan and Va Beach and have been to "big time camps". We will compete and we will have more state qualifiers in the near future so hopefully our program continues to flourish.

 

I think the class team state is great, I am really excited to compete in it. If we are lucky enough to place top 2 or 3, I think we will add several young athletes into our fold. Our future is bright as we are moving in the right direction.

Edited by RASSLER4LIFE

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Even though you keep saying that big schools will produce more state qualifiers and placers, but yet they are equal?

 

Yes they are equal as it relates to participation at state. More kids and more wrestlers should equate to more kids being successful, but this success is in line with the student population. By your logic, the wrestlers who represent 11% of the student population should have the same rate of success as the wrestlers who represent 65% of the student population in the state. But if each class got a third of the qualifiers and placers then that would not be an equitable system.

 

If the argument for class wrestling is that it will increase participation rates, you can't then choose to ignore the non-varsity participants as it relates to qualifiers and placers. They are participants as well and discounting them doesn't give you accurate take on fairness.

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Still waiting on one of you guys to explain why 1a doesn't produce 11% of the placers and champs.

I'm not pro-class or anti-class, so I'm not "one of them" as you refer. I'm simply pointing to a couple flaws in the argument as it relates to fairness in qualifiers and forfeits.

 

If the NY #s show a decent bump in participation after the implementation of class wrestling and they've maintained that over the 10 year span since, then the class argument will be lock tight. Participation rates are dropping nationwide (in both single and multi class systems) so classing hasn't been sufficient to maintain prior levels of participation. which suggests there is a lot more at play than a classed system. That said if its had a demonstratable effect in NY then its going to be hard to make a logically argument against it. But comparing systems that have been classed for 20-30 (OH over 40) years and not having any pre-class data gives us an incomplete picture.

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I'm not pro-class or anti-class, so I'm not "one of them" as you refer. I'm simply pointing to a couple flaws in the argument as it relates to fairness in qualifiers and forfeits.

 

If the NY #s show a decent bump in participation after the implementation of class wrestling and they've maintained that over the 10 year span since, then the class argument will be lock tight. Participation rates are dropping nationwide (in both single and multi class systems) so classing hasn't been sufficient to maintain prior levels of participation. which suggests there is a lot more at play than a classed system. That said if its had a demonstratable effect in NY then its going to be hard to make a logically argument against it. But comparing systems that have been classed for 20-30 (OH over 40) years and not having any pre-class data gives us an incomplete picture.

 

Fair enough.  Those who I am alluding to know who they are, I look forward to their responses.

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Well one could say that those kids from 3A schools have more experience being "under the lights" or in high pressure situations. Their schedules are certainly more difficult than most 1A schools thus they get more experience wrestling in big tournaments with lots of pressure on the line and many more fans in the stands.

 

Having this experience could be the difference between making the right strategic decision with 20 secs left in the match compared to a kid who doesn't have the experience of wrestling those high pressure matches.

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Well one could say that those kids from 3A schools have more experience being "under the lights" or in high pressure situations. Their schedules are certainly more difficult than most 1A schools thus they get more experience wrestling in big tournaments with lots of pressure on the line and many more fans in the stands.

 

Having this experience could be the difference between making the right strategic decision with 20 secs left in the match compared to a kid who doesn't have the experience of wrestling those high pressure matches.

 

Sounds like an advantage for the 3A schools?

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Well of course... But one could say at 1A schools kids get more 1 on 1 time from coaches when there is only 4 kids on the team... That would be an advantage too... Obviously there are advantages and disadvantages to each situation... Just like life...

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I can see, and agree with, the argument for team sports needing a class system.  For sports like basketball and football, the size of your student body is going to have a large impact on whether you're going to have 10 kids that are 6'0" - 7'0" tall (Basketball) or 60 kids that are 160lbs - 300lbs (football).

 

For an individual event like the Wrestling state finals, it just doesn't have the same strength of argument.  There's already a class system for the Coaches Association tournament.  What is largely an individual tournament doesn't need a class system IMO.  I don't really pay much attention to which school wins the points total at State, I only care how the individual wrestlers perform. 

 

Yorktown isn't a large school (780), but they routinely send 5 - 8 kids to the State tournament

Edited by Forrester

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I can see, and agree with, the argument for team sports needing a class system.  For sports like basketball and football, the size of your student body is going to have a large impact on whether you're going to have 10 kids that are 6'0" - 7'0" tall (Basketball) or 60 kids that are 160lbs - 300lbs (football).

 

For an individual event like the Wrestling state finals, it just doesn't have the same strength of argument.  There's already a class system for the Coaches Association tournament.  What is largely an individual tournament doesn't need a class system IMO.  I don't really pay much attention to which school wins the points total at State, I only care how the individual wrestlers perform. 

 

Yorktown isn't a large school (780), but they routinely send 5 - 8 kids to the State tournament

So quality of practice partners don't help? Quality and number of coaches doesn't help? Less pressure to be a multi-sport athlete doesn't help?

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2.36% of the 1A wrestlers entered at sectional made it to state while 10.63% of 3A wrestlers entered at sectional made it to state.

 

One big match doesn't erase the facts.

What was the percentage of total wrestlers in the tournament from each of those classes, those have no context without that info

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