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That 11% contributes 27% of the sectional participants. The 62% only represents 39% of the sectional participants.

 

If you think big schools have an advantage then that is a reason for classed sports. On top of that our forfeits have SKYROCKETED over the past 3-4 years. When I started figuring the forfeit percentage we were averaging about 2 forfeits per team, now it's almost 3.

Most states went to classed wrestling 20-40 years ago. The only recent ones I have seen are New York(about 10 years ago I think) and Texas(within the past 4 years). Illinois has expanded from 2 to 3 classes within the past 5 years also.

 

The 11% may put 27% of the participants into sectionals, but they still only represent 11% of the student body or wrestlers. The 39% of sectional participants represent 2/3 of the student body and wrestlers in the state, so again I'm struggling to see how this isn't a fair representation of each wrestling class.

 

Based on your logic, we should expect a bball team with 5 players to win as many games (on average) as a team with 12-15, as they can only play 5 at a time. (sure it could happen, but it won't on average) To accurately measure fairness of state finals participation you must factor the student populations and the number of wrestlers in the programs, you can't simply count the number of sectional participants. This would allow you to assess the probability that any high school wrestler (JV or Varsity) has of making the state tournament.

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I guess the first thing that comes to mind as I sift through these posts is "perspective."  Just who are you in relation to the issue?  Are you a coach, a grandfather of a wrestler, an ex-wrestler, a

Y2, I want to first admit that you are a really good debator, maybe even a masterdebator?  I don't know that's up for debation.  After I compliment your skills of arguing I'm going to try and learn fr

It's crazy that those numbers almost mirror the total population of each class. Which is BTW what you would staistically expect, which shows that things in terms of qualifiers is realitivily fair. T

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By the way Y2, since your school is a 2A in your proposed "class system", how many state qualifiers did you have this season in a one class system? I just can't figure out why you want a class system so bad.

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I am a PA resident and have been to the Indiana state wrestling finals for the last 5 years. I like the fact that there are not separate classes.

However, the way the tournament is run with no wrestle backs until Saturday is a slap in the face to the 8 wrestlers who lost on Friday night.

I watched this year alone, a bunch of top ranked wrestlers loose a tough match on Friday and they were done. This is just down grading to a wrestler who has worked his tail off to get to this point. It does not give you your true placing.

With the blind draw you could end up with the top 2 wrestlers in the weight class on the same side of the bracket and meet before the finals and then one of them can only finish as good as fifth. No way is that fair to these young wrestlers.

If Red and Lee happened to be on the same side of the bracket, that great finals match would never have happened.  Lee could of only then finished fifth.

Do you think that is fair?  No way.  Wrestle backs should be a part of these Brackets and the wrestlers should be seeded and placed in the brackets accordingly.  This is the only way you will get your true top 8 wrestlers in the end.

It is just an in justice to these guys who have worked so, so hard to get to this point to be denied a true placing because of one loss. 

This really needs to be looked at and corrected. I talked to so many people at the state finals that expressed the same thoughts that I have.

All the coaches need to all get together and take this to the IHSAA board and get this changed!! 

Come on man!! Give these wrestlers what they deserve.

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By the way Y2, since your school is a 2A in your proposed "class system", how many state qualifiers did you have this season in a one class system? I just can't figure out why you want a class system so bad.

 

I don't think you know where he coaches

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The 11% may put 27% of the participants into sectionals, but they still only represent 11% of the student body or wrestlers. The 39% of sectional participants represent 2/3 of the student body and wrestlers in the state, so again I'm struggling to see how this isn't a fair representation of each wrestling class.

 

Based on your logic, we should expect a bball team with 5 players to win as many games (on average) as a team with 12-15, as they can only play 5 at a time. (sure it could happen, but it won't on average) To accurately measure fairness of state finals participation you must factor the student populations and the number of wrestlers in the programs, you can't simply count the number of sectional participants. This would allow you to assess the probability that any high school wrestler (JV or Varsity) has of making the state tournament.

Then why does that 11% only get 4.76% of the state placers? 

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The 11% may put 27% of the participants into sectionals, but they still only represent 11% of the student body or wrestlers. The 39% of sectional participants represent 2/3 of the student body and wrestlers in the state, so again I'm struggling to see how this isn't a fair representation of each wrestling class.

 

Based on your logic, we should expect a bball team with 5 players to win as many games (on average) as a team with 12-15, as they can only play 5 at a time. (sure it could happen, but it won't on average) To accurately measure fairness of state finals participation you must factor the student populations and the number of wrestlers in the programs, you can't simply count the number of sectional participants. This would allow you to assess the probability that any high school wrestler (JV or Varsity) has of making the state tournament.

Poor argument, as basketball is allowed substitutions during the game.  There are at least 10 players allowed on a basketball sectional roster. 

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Also, on the "freedom of speech" and "dictator" comments, again remember this site is OWNED by Y2.  Much like your own home, Y2 allows/invites people onto his website.  If someone in your home consistently runs his mouth about things you find strongly disagreeable, you are welcome to have that person leave.  That makes you neither a dictator, nor in violation of freedom of speech.

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I guess the first thing that comes to mind as I sift through these posts is "perspective."  Just who are you in relation to the issue?  Are you a coach, a grandfather of a wrestler, an ex-wrestler, a current high school wrestler?  If you are a coach, you will likely understand the dynamics of a small school better than most, as compared to a large school. (i.e. - lesser resources to work with, smaller coaching staff, fewer drill partners in the practice room, smaller gene pool of athletes to pull from, etc)  I would also caution that the vantage point of a "teacher-coach" is much, much different than that of a "lay coach."  I have been both.  I was a lay coach for 18 years before becoming a teacher for the past 10 years.  Even as a lay coach, I had no idea about the dynamics and inter-workings surrounding the students and their available resources during the school day and on the athletic field.

 

If we want to grow actual wrestling in our state, class wrestling is the way to go.  It offers fair and equitable opportunities to all who participate across the state.  We should class Indiana wrestling for the very same reasons we now class Indiana football, Indiana baseball, etc...   The days of Hickory HS and the movie Hoosiers is long gone.  Community and school dynamics have changed drastically in recent decades.  

 

Class wrestling works in Iowa, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan and Illinois to name just a few, and it would work tremendously in Indiana.  I don't think anyone can say that the class system has hurt wrestling in any of these other states that surround us.

 

So back to perspective...  just who should have the final say on this topic, since so many people are divided on the issue?  The fan in the stands who doesn't have a singlet on?  The IHSAA who only seems to care about money and self-preservation?  Or should the schools/teams who are the ones in the trenches have the final say-so?

 

I think this point has been made before, but I will mention it again.  If there is no use for "class anything", then let's do away with class football in Indiana.  It's 11 vs 11 right?  Them there small schools should be able to hang with Warren Central and Ben Davis on the gridiron.  While we are at it, let's do away with DI, DII and DIII classifications at the collegiate level!  Those DIII wrestlers need to quit making excuses and man up against Penn State, Oklahoma State and Iowa!  That's a fair assessment isn't it?

 

There are classifications of all kinds in our society's infrastructure in the name of "fair play."  It is time Indiana class its high school wrestling season to offer more equitable opportunities to kids from varying communities and school districts across the state and to grow the sport as a whole.  Mark my words... if we implement class wrestling, our numbers and overall strength of the sport will sky rocket across the state!

 

Coach McCormick

 

 

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I have coached two state champions who came from the second smallest school on record to produce a state champ, and the smallest to produce multiple.  People went totally bonkers.  One year, we had a gym packed with about 1,000 people to watch on big screen (we also hosted a regional-champ girls basketball team that year) and the other a few hundred drove to Indy to make up what (according to my eyes and ears:}) was the loudest crowd in the arena.  Then you know what happened?  Nothing.  Numbers went down after both seasons.  You know why?  Kids in our small school saw those guys as super heroes who had done something far beyond their reach.  Life in a small school is different than life in a big school.  That goes for everything from AP scores to essay contests to wrestling state finalists.

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Poor argument, as basketball is allowed substitutions during the game.  There are at least 10 players allowed on a basketball sectional roster. 

 

Oh so a coach can't substitute one wrestler for another? Couldn't one wrestler who began as JV beat out the varsity wrestler later on.

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Not trying to make it personal, just don't understand why you want class so desperately.

Here is the cliff notes version since you must be new to the conversation. I have coached at a small school and a big school, they are worlds apart in many facets of athletics. On top of that I believe wrestling would grow at the small school level where it looks to be dying.

The 11% may put 27% of the participants into sectionals, but they still only represent 11% of the student body or wrestlers. The 39% of sectional participants represent 2/3 of the student body and wrestlers in the state, so again I'm struggling to see how this isn't a fair representation of each wrestling class.

 

Based on your logic, we should expect a bball team with 5 players to win as many games (on average) as a team with 12-15, as they can only play 5 at a time. (sure it could happen, but it won't on average) To accurately measure fairness of state finals participation you must factor the student populations and the number of wrestlers in the programs, you can't simply count the number of sectional participants. This would allow you to assess the probability that any high school wrestler (JV or Varsity) has of making the state tournament.

Answer this with a yes or no

 

Does school size matter in wrestling?

 

If your answer is yes then that is the strongest argument for class wrestling. If your answer is no, then your posts aren't saying that.

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Oh so a coach can't substitute one wrestler for another? Couldn't one wrestler who began as JV beat out the varsity wrestler later on.

Participants argument was specific to sectional entries.  At that point, no you cannot make substitutions in the same way you can in basketball.  A wrestler either wrestles on that Saturday or he does not.

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I guess the first thing that comes to mind as I sift through these posts is "perspective."  Just who are you in relation to the issue?  Are you a coach, a grandfather of a wrestler, an ex-wrestler, a current high school wrestler?  If you are a coach, you will likely understand the dynamics of a small school better than most, as compared to a large school. (i.e. - lesser resources to work with, smaller coaching staff, fewer drill partners in the practice room, smaller gene pool of athletes to pull from, etc)  I would also caution that the vantage point of a "teacher-coach" is much, much different than that of a "lay coach."  I have been both.  I was a lay coach for 18 years before becoming a teacher for the past 10 years.  Even as a lay coach, I had no idea about the dynamics and inter-workings surrounding the students and their available resources during the school day and on the athletic field.

 

If we want to grow actual wrestling in our state, class wrestling is the way to go.  It offers fair and equitable opportunities to all who participate across the state.  We should class Indiana wrestling for the very same reasons we now class Indiana football, Indiana baseball, etc...   The days of Hickory HS and the movie Hoosiers is long gone.  Community and school dynamics have changed drastically in recent decades.  

 

Class wrestling works in Iowa, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan and Illinois to name just a few, and it would work tremendously in Indiana.  I don't think anyone can say that the class system has hurt wrestling in any of these other states that surround us.

 

So back to perspective...  just who should have the final say on this topic, since so many people are divided on the issue?  The fan in the stands who doesn't have a singlet on?  The IHSAA who only seems to care about money and self-preservation?  Or should the schools/teams who are the ones in the trenches have the final say-so?

 

I think this point has been made before, but I will mention it again.  If there is no use for "class anything", then let's do away with class football in Indiana.  It's 11 vs 11 right?  Them there small schools should be able to hang with Warren Central and Ben Davis on the gridiron.  While we are at it, let's do away with DI, DII and DIII classifications at the collegiate level!  Those DIII wrestlers need to quit making excuses and man up against Penn State, Oklahoma State and Iowa!  That's a fair assessment isn't it?

 

There are classifications of all kinds in our society's infrastructure in the name of "fair play."  It is time Indiana class its high school wrestling season to offer more equitable opportunities to kids from varying communities and school districts across the state and to grow the sport as a whole.  Mark my words... if we implement class wrestling, our numbers and overall strength of the sport will sky rocket across the state!

 

Coach McCormick

But....

 

What if I want to wrestle the "big dogs" and I'm in class 1A for my state tournament? Are you going to deprive me of the opportunity to beat everyone in the state at my weight class? 

 

Require the finalists in each class to wrestle the following weekend to determine ONE champion and I might be more inclined to jump onboard the class system.

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Here is the cliff notes version since you must be new to the conversation. I have coached at a small school and a big school, they are worlds apart in many facets of athletics. On top of that I believe wrestling would grow at the small school level where it looks to be dying.

Answer this with a yes or no

 

Does school size matter in wrestling?

 

If your answer is yes then that is the strongest argument for class wrestling. If your answer is no, then your posts aren't saying that.

 

I have never disagreed once that there are advantages to being a large school (for the myriad of reasons discussed ad nauseam) That said the numbers, reflect that per capita and per wrestler in the room, our 1A schools are being fairly represented at state. (9% to 11%) and 3A gets 62% of the qualifiers out of 66% of the student population and wrestlers.

 

Yes size it does matter, but when the numbers show representation rates are in line with student populations and wrestlers, then it's hard for me to see that the system isn't fair. (in respect to qualifiers)

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I have never disagreed once that there are advantages to being a large school (for the myriad of reasons discussed ad nauseam) That said the numbers, reflect that per capita and per wrestler in the room, our 1A schools are being fairly represented at state. (9% to 11%) and 3A gets 62% of the qualifiers out of 66% of the student population and wrestlers.

 

Yes size it does matter, but when the numbers show representation rates are in line with student populations and wrestlers, then it's hard for me to see that the system isn't fair. (in respect to qualifiers)

 

What about placers and champs?  Why don't those fall in line with your logic?

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I have never disagreed once that there are advantages to being a large school (for the myriad of reasons discussed ad nauseam) That said the numbers, reflect that per capita and per wrestler in the room, our 1A schools are being fairly represented at state. (9% to 11%) and 3A gets 62% of the qualifiers out of 66% of the student population and wrestlers.

 

Yes size it does matter, but when the numbers show representation rates are in line with student populations and wrestlers, then it's hard for me to see that the system isn't fair. (in respect to qualifiers)

So it should only be fair in respect to qualifiers?  Not medal winners or champs?

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I have never disagreed once that there are advantages to being a large school (for the myriad of reasons discussed ad nauseam) That said the numbers, reflect that per capita and per wrestler in the room, our 1A schools are being fairly represented at state. (9% to 11%) and 3A gets 62% of the qualifiers out of 66% of the student population and wrestlers.

 

Yes size it does matter, but when the numbers show representation rates are in line with student populations and wrestlers, then it's hard for me to see that the system isn't fair. (in respect to qualifiers)

The reason we class sports is because the powers that be believe that school size is very indicative of potential. Thus if you say school size matters then you are saying we should have a classed system.

 

In a SINGLE class system we are saying that all 3000 wrestlers that step on the mat at sectional have an EQUAL shot at going to state. The statistics show that everyone is NOT equal.

 

 

But....

 

What if I want to wrestle the "big dogs" and I'm in class 1A for my state tournament? Are you going to deprive me of the opportunity to beat everyone in the state at my weight class? 

 

Require the finalists in each class to wrestle the following weekend to determine ONE champion and I might be more inclined to jump onboard the class system.

Just like you had the 1A vs. 2A, 3A vs. 4A, and 5A vs. 6A football championships right?

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Here is the cliff notes version since you must be new to the conversation. I have coached at a small school and a big school, they are worlds apart in many facets of athletics. On top of that I believe wrestling would grow at the small school level where it looks to be dying.

 

We've had this discussion before, so no cliff notes version needed. Wrestling is an individual sport, something the IHSAA has agreed upon. In many facets, I agree that small schools and big schools vary, just the sheer numbers game alone sets that apart. I mean a school of 1500+ students should definitely be able to field a squad of 14 wrestlers but a student body of say 400 students, some of the kids that might be wrestlers at your school are now basketball players. So classing wrestling will not bring that basketball player over to wrestling. The sport is tough, practices are tough. You are gonna have an easier time finding 14 kids out if 1500 that can withstand those conditions, a school of 400 may not. So therefore do I soften practice to get 14 kids of different weight to fill a full team. Not gonna happen for my team. I would rather have 8 that will withstand those conditions and compete hard no matter who is in front of us.

 

States with classes wrestling are battling the same issues we are. The sport is losing numbers period. Country wide not just Indiana. If class is the cure all to better sports then once basketball classed we would have seen a rise in attendance not less, our state would be producing even more NBA players. If a kid is really good at wrestling will he leave a small school, AKA transfer? I would likely send mine elsewhere and not keep him at a small school. it happens in basketball now. I just don't believe that classing the sport is the cure all.

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