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Any change of hearts?

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About a year ago, several folks mentioned it would benefit Indiana wrestling if more kids participated in freeestyle/Greco.   A one person countered he didn’t have his kid do FS because there wasn’t much point with so few Olympic spots.  Grecoref astutely pointed out most wrestlers are never even state champions in folkstyle, yet we still see great value in folkstyle.

 

Just because one particular guy makes the Olympic team or two great wrestlers meet in a state champion match does not mean it is emblematic of what is best for the entire sport.  Watch the passion of the kids in 1A and 2A at team state.  It is heartwarming to see those kids finally get a shot on a level playing field. 

 

I loved the Red vs. Lee match.  It was great.  But that is one match out of something like 12,000 total matches that took place in Indiana this year.  We should do what is best for the other 11,999 matches.

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The 1A schools represent 11% of the total student population, and likely near that same percentage of wrestlers (#'s in the room) When a team like Warren Central sends 14 guys to sectionals they get to pick from 50+ kids in the room. So those 14 represent 50+. Whereas the forfeit numbers in 1A suggest the average is close 10 sectional entries per team, so those 10 kids represent 10-12 wrestlers. It's hard to say our system is grossly unfair, even to the small schools as they are fairly represented both in terms of total student enrollment and participation rates. There are some good arguments for class wrestling but this and the forfeit data neither suggest overall improvement with the implementation of class wrestling (Y2K has made his point that it would help small schools, but it seems to come at the expense of the overall forfeit and participation rates)

The whole school population doesn't enter the state tournament. If we have a single class system aren't we signifying that EVERYONE is equal that steps on the mat at sectional? If everyone isn't equal then we have a reason to have class wrestling.

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Yes - why?

 

I have witnessed on multiple occasion kids that weren't varsity level at a larger school, going to a neighboring small school in order to make varsity. I don't see this point as being anything unbelievable. Am I missing something?

 

JV big school kids don't go to small schools and qualify for state.   

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I agree during the season it can hurt them to an extent. But, I still believe that by doing all the things necessary in the off season to improve would be enough for them to advance farther into the State tournament then what statistics show.

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About a year ago, several folks mentioned it would benefit Indiana wrestling if more kids participated in freeestyle/Greco.   A one person countered he didn’t have his kid do FS because there wasn’t much point with so few Olympic spots.  Grecoref astutely pointed out most wrestlers are never even state champions in folkstyle, yet we still see great value in folkstyle.

 

Just because one particular guy makes the Olympic team or two great wrestlers meet in a state champion match does not mean it is emblematic of what is best for the entire sport.  Watch the passion of the kids in 1A and 2A at team state.  It is heartwarming to see those kids finally get a shot on a level playing field. 

 

I loved the Red vs. Lee match.  It was great.  But that is one match out of something like 12,000 total matches that took place in Indiana this year.  We should do what is best for the other 11,999 matches.

 

This is why I am a huge fan of classed team state. Just not classed individual state.

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The 1A schools represent 11% of the total student population, and likely near that same percentage of wrestlers (#'s in the room) When a team like Warren Central sends 14 guys to sectionals they get to pick from 50+ kids in the room. So those 14 represent 50+. Whereas the forfeit numbers in 1A suggest the average is close 10 sectional entries per team, so those 10 kids represent 10-12 wrestlers. It's hard to say our system is grossly unfair, even to the small schools as they are fairly represented both in terms of total student enrollment and participation rates. There are some good arguments for class wrestling but this and the forfeit data neither suggest overall improvement with the implementation of class wrestling (Y2K has made his point that it would help small schools, but it seems to come at the expense of the overall forfeit and participation rates)

 

You have just made a perfect argument for class wrestling.

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I'm not saying "work harder" at all. You guys are stating that 1A individuals have a low percentage of making it to the state finals correct?? So, what is the difference between a 3A individual and a 1A individual??? All individuals have the same opportunities to improve in the off season regardless of school size. If that 1A individual wants to get better then they have the same opportunity to get in the big time club rooms, go to the big time camps, seek out better workout partners in there area, etc. as do the 3A individuals.

Over the past 6 years 65% of the state qualifiers have been from 3A, 26% from 2A, and 9% from 1A. 

 

With what you are saying, I am gathering that about 10x more 3A wrestlers do offseason work than 1A wrestlers. We need to look at if that is true, and if so WHY? Is it because 1A wrestlers are lazy? Is it because 1A wrestlers are also in track and baseball? Is it because there is a lack of offseason opportunity? 

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JV big school kids don't go to small schools and qualify for state.   

 

Agreed. But why put all this effort into trying to get small school individual kids to be able to say they advanced to state? Isn't the idea behind it to promote the sport and to give them an opportunity to know what it was like to go to state? But shouldn't all those JV kids get that same feeling? Should there be a JV state?

I am not trying to come across snarky at all. I just know that there are many very good wrestlers at larger schools that can't even compete in the state tournament because they are behind better wrestlers. The smaller schools generally don't have that problem. They can have a very subpar wrestler who would get the opportunity some of those JV guys would love to have. There have been pretty good JV guys that eventually quit because they can't break into the varsity lineup. I would guess this is pretty common, and just as big of a problem as smaller schools not getting enough wrestlers out?

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This is why I am a huge fan of classed team state. Just not classed individual state.

I'm sure the Prairie  Heights fans would go nuts if they had a state champ, I'm sure Monrovia's fans would run wild if they got a state champ.

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If the issue at hand is practice partners, maybe the IHSAA could amend the rule and allow schools with less than 1000 students combine practices. 

 

Would that help? 

 

The largest school has 4800 students:   The rule could be that schools can combine practice so long as all schools practicing together do not have student population that adds up to more than 4800. 

 

So Yorktown (787) Delta (853) and Muncie Central (1698)  could all practice together.  That way there would be plenty of practice partners to go around. 

Edited by Walter Sobchak

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The whole school population doesn't enter the state tournament. If we have a single class system aren't we signifying that EVERYONE is equal that steps on the mat at sectional? If everyone isn't equal then we have a reason to have class wrestling.

 

You can't have your cake and eat it too. LOL On one side you use the number of kids in the room and the total number of boys to choose from as a factor that limits fairness and provides an express advantage to large schools (hard to argue there) But on the flip side when it comes to evaluating the state results you are willing to discount the fact that the coach gets to choose from 50+ kids to put the best 14 out there. It's difficult for me to see how a 1A team (which may have a 1/10 of the wrestlers and student population) should get the same number of kids qualifying at state as a 3A school, and you could make the argument that would be horribly unfair if it did turn out that way.

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You can't have your cake and eat it too. LOL On one side you use the number of kids in the room and the total number of boys to choose from as a factor that limits fairness and provides an express advantage to large schools (hard to argue there) But on the flip side when it comes to evaluating the state results you are willing to discount the fact that the coach gets to choose from 50+ kids to put the best 14 out there. It's difficult for me to see how a 1A team (which may have a 1/10 of the wrestlers and student population) should get the same number of kids qualifying at state as a 3A school, and you could make the argument that would be horribly unfair if it did turn out that way.

 

You continue to make excellent points on the need for a classed tournament

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If the issue at hand is practice partners, maybe the IHSAA could amend the rule and allow schools with less than 1000 students combine practices. 

 

Would that help? 

If I remember correctly doesn't Illinois, or maybe I'm thinking of another state, have some kind of consolidation program which allows the smaller schools to combined for sports practices and maybe even competition?

Edited by MattM

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The fairness argument as it relates to state qualifiers is hollow at best. How is it fair that 11% of the wrestlers/student body should make up 33% of the state qualifiers?

 

Sure there are good arguments for class wrestling (I agree big schools do have an advantage) I just haven't been convinced this is the solution to any of what ails Indiana wrestling as a whole. Every classed state that Y2 has provided statistics for also has rising forfeit rates, so it just doesn't suggest that this will have any major effect. (You may interpret that differently) We are actually doing better on forfeits with the 2/3 majority of our total student population than the classed states around us. (by 1 whole forfeit) So we're talking about modifying our existing system to accomodate 11% of the student body, at the expense of the 2/3 majority.

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The fairness argument as it relates to state qualifiers is hollow at best. How is it fair that 11% of the wrestlers/student body should make up 33% of the state qualifiers?

 

Sure there are good arguments for class wrestling (I agree big schools do have an advantage) I just haven't been convinced this is the solution to any of what ails Indiana wrestling as a whole. Every classed state that Y2 has provided statistics for also has rising forfeit rates, so it just doesn't suggest that this will have any major effect. (You may interpret that differently) We are actually doing better on forfeits with the 2/3 majority of our total student population than the classed states around us. (by 1 whole forfeit) So we're talking about modifying our existing system to accomodate 11% of the student body, at the expense of the 2/3 majority.

You continue to make excellent points on NOT needing a classed tournament.

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Logan Dillbeck goes to a school of almost 1700 students...come on now! Let's not let facts get in the way of an emotional argument.

Where are you getting your enrollment numbers from. Gibson Southern high school has 683 students.

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The fairness argument as it relates to state qualifiers is hollow at best. How is it fair that 11% of the wrestlers/student body should make up 33% of the state qualifiers?

 

Sure there are good arguments for class wrestling (I agree big schools do have an advantage) I just haven't been convinced this is the solution to any of what ails Indiana wrestling as a whole. Every classed state that Y2 has provided statistics for also has rising forfeit rates, so it just doesn't suggest that this will have any major effect. (You may interpret that differently) We are actually doing better on forfeits with the 2/3 majority of our total student population than the classed states around us. (by 1 whole forfeit) So we're talking about modifying our existing system to accomodate 11% of the student body, at the expense of the 2/3 majority.

How is it at the expense of the 2/3 majority? Does that mean classed wrestling will take titles away from the big schools? Is your argument that if you can't help everyone you should help no one? 

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As much as I hate to bring this up and possibly start yet another class wrestling conversation - I'm curious to hear if this year's finals, particularly the Red vs. Lee showdown, has proven to anyone that our system is pretty darn good as it is? The argument for class wrestling was to get more people interested in the sport. I think this match, in itself, did that remarkably well. I can't tell you how many people I've had come up to me, that really don't follow wrestling at all, asking about what that match was like. People see the videos posted of it. Kids were asking the wrestlers for their autographs. In my opinion, if there was ever an argument over our state's finals being classed or not, this seals the deal in favor of keeping it the same.

I personally agree with this statement here. The atmosphere inside Bankers Life Fieldhouse was incredible. All eyes on one mat watching one match. I understand the classed system would give a somewhat better chance for smaller schools to compete for a state title, but imagine having another or maybe two state championship matches going on during Red vs. Lee or Garcia vs. Murphy. The building wouldn't erupt like it did, and it would look rather awkward. I'm sure champions like Chad Red, Mason Parris, Asa Garcia, and place-winners/qualifiers like Brycen Denny and Dristin McCubbins feel great knowing they went toe-to-toe with Indiana's best in the wildest atmosphere with all eyes on them at most times, in comparison to facing lesser quality opponents and calling themselves state qualifiers because it was easier to make it to the big tournament. At the end of the day, the class system would effectively diminish the sport in Indiana.

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Logan Dillbeck goes to a school of almost 1700 students...come on now! Let's not let facts get in the way of an emotional argument

Never once did I say he came from a small school I said "from a po-dunk school in the middle of a corn field," which Gibson Southern very much so is.

I will make you a deal Y2! I will ardently support class wrestling in every way possible if you agree to step down as a moderator! Deal?

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The area erupts all weekend, when four mats are going. Your argument says that Caden Rooks is a lesser opponent because he didn't make it to state, even though he beat Cavanah(sp) and  would have qualified in a two class system. 

In a class system we would have much fewer Triana v Cummings, Rooks v Garcia, match ups in the round to go. So a few "lesser kids" get to state, but others don't get screwed by horrible match ups in the ticket rounds. 

Edited by CoachM

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Over the past 6 years 65% of the state qualifiers have been from 3A, 26% from 2A, and 9% from 1A.

 

With what you are saying, I am gathering that about 10x more 3A wrestlers do offseason work than 1A wrestlers. We need to look at if that is true, and if so WHY? Is it because 1A wrestlers are lazy? Is it because 1A wrestlers are also in track and baseball? Is it because there is a lack of offseason opportunity?

It's crazy that those numbers almost mirror the total population of each class. Which is BTW what you would staistically expect, which shows that things in terms of qualifiers is realitivily fair.

The total population of the schools is BY FAR the biggest advantage big schools have, yet when it comes down to looking at the numbers we should ignore that fact and just say that each team enters 14 kids at sectionals?

You have to take the total population into account. That was the original group that big schools have to choose from. The problem with doing this of course is that the facts show a slight disadvantage to 1A and 3A schools and a slight advantage to being from a 2A school, which doesn't fit the class fans narritive, so you guys choose to ignore that fact.

The numbers are similar every year, and every year the numbers mirror the total populations. Which again is staistically what you would expect.

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