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As much as I hate to bring this up and possibly start yet another class wrestling conversation - I'm curious to hear if this year's finals, particularly the Red vs. Lee showdown, has proven to anyone that our system is pretty darn good as it is? The argument for class wrestling was to get more people interested in the sport. I think this match, in itself, did that remarkably well. I can't tell you how many people I've had come up to me, that really don't follow wrestling at all, asking about what that match was like. People see the videos posted of it. Kids were asking the wrestlers for their autographs. In my opinion, if there was ever an argument over our state's finals being classed or not, this seals the deal in favor of keeping it the same.

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I guess the first thing that comes to mind as I sift through these posts is "perspective."  Just who are you in relation to the issue?  Are you a coach, a grandfather of a wrestler, an ex-wrestler, a

Y2, I want to first admit that you are a really good debator, maybe even a masterdebator?  I don't know that's up for debation.  After I compliment your skills of arguing I'm going to try and learn fr

It's crazy that those numbers almost mirror the total population of each class. Which is BTW what you would staistically expect, which shows that things in terms of qualifiers is realitivily fair. T

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As much as I hate to bring this up and possibly start yet another class wrestling conversation - I'm curious to hear if this year's finals, particularly the Red vs. Lee showdown, has proven to anyone that our system is pretty darn good as it is? The argument for class wrestling was to get more people interested in the sport. I think this match, in itself, did that remarkably well. I can't tell you how many people I've had come up to me, that really don't follow wrestling at all, asking about what that match was like. People see the videos posted of it. Kids were asking the wrestlers for their autographs. In my opinion, if there was ever an argument over our state's finals being classed or not, this seals the deal in favor of keeping it the same.

Goodness, so we have a "match of the century" and it all of a sudden erases all of the statistics that show small schools are struggling mightily.  WOW!

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Goodness, so we have a "match of the century" and it all of a sudden erases all of the statistics that show small schools are struggling mightily.  WOW!

No, but it seems with record attendance at state, and wrestling being at an all-time high as far as interest that I can see, I was wondering if that changes anything at all. Not saying it does - I've never been on team class wrestling, but for those that are I didn't know if this would make a difference. I wouldn't trade the atmosphere this year at state for anything. It was awesome.

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This is a good sign, that wrestling is drawing attention from non-wrestling fans. It can only better our sport. Now does that have anything to do with class wrestling. I don't think so. The two wrestlers involved are from 3A schools, unless New Palestine is a 2A. The larger high schools still have a distinct advantage over the small schools, and added intrest from non-wrestling fans doesn't really cahnge this. I don't think the Red vs Lee match will get people that aren't already involved in the sport, to get involved in the sport. 

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Indiana is one of the few states that continues to hold the state tournament series without classes, and I believe this is fantastic for the sport. As a recent graduate, I easily recall that there was no greater motivator than the dream to wrestle under the spotlight in front of thousands of people. Most people fail to see the fact that small schools are not the only victims here. For example, Evansville Harrison has several thousand students and has only qualified one wrestler for state in the past seven years. The current method for individual state has worked since the 1940's, so why change it now? I think the real problem here comes down to schools just not being "wrestling schools." The fact of the matter is that some schools invest more money into one athletic program than another and sometimes minimal money into any athletic facilities. At the end of the day, class wrestling would force two or three wrestlers in each class to wrestle against fourteen other mediocre to average wrestlers instead of sixteen of the best athletes in the state duking it out in the pursuit of the ultimate prize. This system is better for the fans, better for the sport, and better for the athletes.

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It may  actually work the reverse:  think if every year we had match ups of kids who were returning state champs vs. kids who actually had a chance to beat them.  A returning 1a state champ could very well be undefeated and be facing another 1a kid who is undefeated..... it could be billed as the next match of the century....  the possibilities are ENDLESS....am I wrong?

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Indiana is one of the few states that continues to hold the state tournament series without classes, and I believe this is fantastic for the sport. As a recent graduate, I easily recall that there was no greater motivator than the dream to wrestle under the spotlight in front of thousands of people. Most people fail to see the fact that small schools are not the only victims here. For example, Evansville Harrison has several thousand students and has only qualified one wrestler for state in the past seven years. The current method for individual state has worked since the 1940's, so why change it now? I think the real problem here comes down to schools just not being "wrestling schools." The fact of the matter is that some schools invest more money into one athletic program than another and sometimes minimal money into any athletic facilities. At the end of the day, class wrestling would force two or three wrestlers in each class to wrestle against fourteen other mediocre to average wrestlers instead of sixteen of the best athletes in the state duking it out in the pursuit of the ultimate prize. This system is better for the fans, better for the sport, and better for the athletes.

So since Evansville Harrison struggles to get state qualifiers that means we shouldn't have class wrestling, that is an anecdotal fallacy.

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Class basketball killed the spirit of the sport in Indiana. i don't want that to happen to wrestling. I know that they are two different sports but still. Also, are we going to have 96 sectionals, 48 Regionals, 12 Semi States? Sectional champions decided without wrestling a single match or just the finals. 

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I have to agree with Y2 on this. Small schools make up about 11% of the total population of schools. It would only be fair if that 11% made up 33.3% of the state qualifiers. Facts are facts!

Small schools accounted for 27% of the entries in the state tournament. Yet only 12.74% made it to state and a whooping 2.36% were state placers. Churubusco entered the same number of kids in the state tournament as Carroll, Perry Meridian, Garrett, etc.

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So since Evansville Harrison struggles to get state qualifiers that means we shouldn't have class wrestling, that is an anecdotal fallacy.

The purpose of that argument was to emphasize that even large schools sometimes fail to produce wrestlers that can compete at a state level. That is what I personally feel makes Indiana wrestling great. Athletes such as Bailey LaHue and Logan Dilbeck that come up from po-dunk towns in the middle of corn fields and proceed to become some of the better wrestlers in the state and beat kids that come from state of the art facilities makes Indiana wrestling special. Wrestling is a sport in which the wills of two men are pitted against each other and the best, most determined athlete wins. The best stories in Indiana wrestling come from the special athletes who, against all odds, overcome a lack of facilities, funding, and practice partners and become a top three finisher at state. Granted, there are a lot of special athletes that come from larger schools, but to remove the chance of the 1A stud to even compete against the 3A Goliath at the state level feels almost amoral. the purpose of individual state is to determine who is the best individual athlete at a given weight class, not to determine who might be the three best. I think that, in the long run, this will hurt more schools than it will help. Sure, more kids will qualify for state, but does having athletes that would potentially only qualify for regionals represent Indiana at a state level really help Indiana wrestling in any way?

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Indiana is one of the few states that continues to hold the state tournament series without classes, and I believe this is fantastic for the sport. As a recent graduate, I easily recall that there was no greater motivator than the dream to wrestle under the spotlight in front of thousands of people. Most people fail to see the fact that small schools are not the only victims here. For example, Evansville Harrison has several thousand students and has only qualified one wrestler for state in the past seven years. The current method for individual state has worked since the 1940's, so why change it now? I think the real problem here comes down to schools just not being "wrestling schools." The fact of the matter is that some schools invest more money into one athletic program than another and sometimes minimal money into any athletic facilities. At the end of the day, class wrestling would force two or three wrestlers in each class to wrestle against fourteen other mediocre to average wrestlers instead of sixteen of the best athletes in the state duking it out in the pursuit of the ultimate prize. This system is better for the fans, better for the sport, and better for the athletes.

Very well said.

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Class basketball killed the spirit of the sport in Indiana. i don't want that to happen to wrestling. I know that they are two different sports but still. Also, are we going to have 96 sectionals, 48 Regionals, 12 Semi States? Sectional champions decided without wrestling a single match or just the finals. 

 

You are right classing basketball has clearly hurt the Hoosier State and made it less competitive (excerpt from an article 1976-2012 was the source of data analyzed): (To avoid potential confusion this was satire).

 

"Indiana, living up to its reputation, may have the strongest high school basketball tradition in the country. With 41 All-Americans in 36 years, Indiana has produced more talent than Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Georgia, all significantly larger states, and trails only Illinois, New York, and California. Adjusting for population size, the Hoosier State blows the field away. Maryland is also a hotbed of talent, as are a handful of Southern states (Louisiana, Mississippi, Georgia, Virginia, and Tennessee), and neighboring Illinois."

 

http://deadspin.com/infographics-where-do-high-school-basketball-stars-com-5984694

 

Indiana has and forever will be a basketball state: making it virtually impossible to compare basketball and wrestling in the state of Indiana. Classing basketball my have made the less than probable stories of "The Hoosiers" a distant memory but it still continues to produce talented basketball players at a disproportional rate in comparison to its size...

Edited by FormerHornet
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The purpose of that argument was to emphasize that even large schools sometimes fail to produce wrestlers that can compete at a state level. That is what I personally feel makes Indiana wrestling great. Athletes such as Bailey LaHue and Logan Dilbeck that come up from po-dunk towns in the middle of corn fields and proceed to become some of the better wrestlers in the state and beat kids that come from state of the art facilities makes Indiana wrestling special. Wrestling is a sport in which the wills of two men are pitted against each other and the best, most determined athlete wins. The best stories in Indiana wrestling come from the special athletes who, against all odds, overcome a lack of facilities, funding, and practice partners and become a top three finisher at state. Granted, there are a lot of special athletes that come from larger schools, but to remove the chance of the 1A stud to even compete against the 3A Goliath at the state level feels almost amoral. the purpose of individual state is to determine who is the best individual athlete at a given weight class, not to determine who might be the three best. I think that, in the long run, this will hurt more schools than it will help. Sure, more kids will qualify for state, but does having athletes that would potentially only qualify for regionals represent Indiana at a state level really help Indiana wrestling in any way?

 

Yes College Coaches from around the country would have more reason to come to our state finals if they can see 2-3 times more kids. This in turn would allow the oppurtunity to get more kids wrestling in college be it D1,2,3 or NAIA due to getting some financial help as opposed to walking on at a school or attending a school without wrestling. Some of those kids come back and we have more college level wrestlers coaching in our state with a more college level mentality and we get better wrestlers. That's a broad explanation of it but there is the BASIC cycle.

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Being from a "small school" myself never crossed my mind while competing at the highest level. I've never heard my kids or any other of our athletes complain about being from a small school and how hard it is to compete. Do you hear your wrestlers complain about it? It seems this argument only comes from the coaches and parents involved, not the actual participants.

 

Maybe I'm wrong.

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Of the 101 teams in 3A 10 have not had a state qualifiers in the past 6 years(2011-2016), approximately 10%

Of the 102 teams in 2A 27 have not had a state qualifiers in the past 6 years(2011-2016), approximately 27%

Of the 102 teams in 1A 60 have not had a state qualifiers in the past 6 years(2011-2016), approximately 60%!!!!!

 
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The purpose of that argument was to emphasize that even large schools sometimes fail to produce wrestlers that can compete at a state level. That is what I personally feel makes Indiana wrestling great. Athletes such as Bailey LaHue and Logan Dilbeck that come up from po-dunk towns in the middle of corn fields and proceed to become some of the better wrestlers in the state and beat kids that come from state of the art facilities makes Indiana wrestling special. Wrestling is a sport in which the wills of two men are pitted against each other and the best, most determined athlete wins. The best stories in Indiana wrestling come from the special athletes who, against all odds, overcome a lack of facilities, funding, and practice partners and become a top three finisher at state. Granted, there are a lot of special athletes that come from larger schools, but to remove the chance of the 1A stud to even compete against the 3A Goliath at the state level feels almost amoral. the purpose of individual state is to determine who is the best individual athlete at a given weight class, not to determine who might be the three best. I think that, in the long run, this will hurt more schools than it will help. Sure, more kids will qualify for state, but does having athletes that would potentially only qualify for regionals represent Indiana at a state level really help Indiana wrestling in any way?

Logan Dillbeck goes to a school of almost 1700 students...come on now! Let's not let facts get in the way of an emotional argument.

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