Any change of hearts?

[Y2CJ41]

Y2, I want to first admit that you are a really good debator, maybe even a masterdebator?  I don't know that's up for debation.  After I compliment your skills of arguing I'm going to try and learn from what you have done many many times in these class wrestling arguments.

 

First, you break down peoples post into paragraph and dissect peoples sentences out of context to try and expose different meaning out of what they are saying... which is what you will more and likely do to this post.

Please show me where I take statements out of context. I break statements down so that they are addressed properly.

 

Second, you skew data by consistently calling MD class 3A which they are not!  I'll agree 100% that they are an outlier based off the fact that what surrounds that school is an insane wrestling community that live, breed, breathe wrestling, however when someone suggest a fact that does not promote class wrestling, you throw that fact out the window and call it an outlier. Also, couldn't you say the top 5 wrestling states that have class wrestling are an outlier?  How about we throw them out and consider them states with 1 class because they come from a community with strong ties to a great wrestling background.  We then use this argument to say states that class wrestling ruin the sport.  It makes no sense, you can not skew data.

Tell me what do with Mater Dei then? Put them in their enrollment area, take them out? I have fancy formulas that can spit out the data in an instant.

 

You will argue point 2 by saying MD will bump up.  Doesn't this also go against many of your other points about classing the sport?  You're gonna tell me that the MD coach will bump up his individuals from class A where they could have an absurd amount of champs and dominate the field (which would probably grow the confidence of 1A right).  MD will bump up to 3A for team but would not take the opportunity away from the individuals to wrestle at 1A.  That point being said brings me to point number 3 which you consistently mention kids in small schools are not as talented because of your "statistics."  You then go on to mention that classing Indiana Wrestling will not water down the state tournament.  Basically what you are proposing is classing state wrestling according to skill level.  You are bumping up MD to 3A in all your stats and assuming that's what they will do because it fits your argument and because they're good.  So 3A is not Big Schools?  You will be proposing that we have State Champ of Good Schools, State Champ of ok Schools and State champ of Struggling Schools.  This will then make struggling schools better and grow the sport.  I believe you would say that statement is Ludacris!

What points does Mater Dei bumping up go against? Not sure I follow.

 

I have never said classing wouldn't water down the state championship. Please show me where I have said that. Maybe we should limit our state finals even less, since you are so concerned with watering it down and undeserving kids are getting to state.

 

Again where do I put Mater Dei? I'll show you the stats wherever you want them to be. FYI, they are 2A in a 3 class system.

 

I want to leave a space so you have room to dissect this without taking it out of context.  My fourth point has to be the fact that you claim people who argue for class wrestling primarily base there argument around emotion. I will make a thesis to this paragraph containing two points: wrestling is about emotion as it is a sport that teaches many life lessons, and I believe this is another place where you hypocritically contradict yourself as you use emotion in your argument.  I don't care what any person for a one class system that we have says, you consistently come up with some reason to dispute it because you love to argue.  They could say a fact that in a one class system semi-state qualifiers do get recruited and yes those coaches from private schools send letters, I might also add that it might seem that a person who places at state will be recruited by colleges more, all of this depends on other circumstances. I have not read very many if any post where you admit that there are pro's and con's to both systems?  You fail to see anything benefical about our current system: true champ, exciting finals, feeling of accomplishment of being a state placer in this system?  On to second point of my thesis so you can follow, the supporters of the one class system support what it stands for be it small school or big school.  It has been stated earlier that wrestling in this system no matter how far the wrestler goes means a lot to that wrestler.  This is coming from past wrestlers so it's first hand experience of their emotion of how our system is.  To class our system by means of point 3 which is how you are proposing it by including MD in 3A is such a non-wrestling attitude at looking at this it sickens me.  I can't beat the best at the system we currently have so let's class it and give me a medal anyway and then maybe college coaches will notice me and sport will grow.  Is that your ideology? You argue that those kids won't know the difference and that a medal is a medal.  A medal is just a piece of material.  I saw an old teamstate medal on ebay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-2003-Indiana-High-School-Wrestling-State-Championship-Medal-Mater-Dei-W-Box-/381337728206?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368[/size]

You can buy that and put it on a shelf if that's how much the medal would mean to you.  A medal is a symbol for all the hardwork and dedication that wrestler put in it.  I believe wrestling probably tought the owner that lost that medal more than what the medal itself meant to him.

False again, I have stated many times I like a one class system from a fan's point of view.  On top of that there is very little benefit to our current system. Funny how I guess kids in classed states don't have exciting finals, wait we'd still have MANY of the same finals that we had this year. Funny how kids in classed states don't have a feeling of accomplishment for placing or qualifying for state. It's sad that you believe that if we go to a classed system all of a sudden there would be no sense of accomplishment. I guess classed state placers just smoke cigs and eat cheetos and magically become state placers.

 

Yet more argument with emotion, since I'm sure MD's football team doesn't work to win state. I'm sure whatever basketball teams win state don't work hard and feel a sense of accomplishment.

 

My actual thoughts on the topic besides pointing out many of what I consider to be flaws in your argument would obviously be that I am for the single class system.  I am aware of some of the advantages that a multi-class system might have when you look at Illinois, but I don't feel that Indiana has as much depth of wrestling at each level.  There are not consistently enough wrestling communities, or ties to each background throughout our state to consider this a solid option for our sport.  This is also backed by your "statistics".  If there were a great majority of wrestling depth throughout the state to make each class very competitive then it would be a different story.  Separating studs from the rest of the group does not sharpen the other wrestlers skills.  In my opinion,  I feel Indiana wrestling fans love the traditional setup we have. There might be houses for sale over in Illinois however if class wrestling emotionally means that much to you.

How do we get that depth? We surely aren't going to get it when half of our schools forfeit numerous weights and qualify 22.5% of the wrestlers..yet that is acceptable. It's hard to grow something when it's just a struggle to keep your head above water. How do you suggest we get that depth?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a young Joe Caprino with flowing locks of hair, and a semi-state qualifier attend the same institution as a student athlete?

Yes...I wasn't recruited however. I was by far the worst kid in the room my freshman year.

[Novice Bat]

Y2 has brought some great points to my attention, and if I wasn't so involved on the fan's side of things, I would be all for class wrestling. 

[sportsfangms]

 

Yes...I wasn't recruited however. I was by far the worst kid in the room my freshman year.

So if you were a state qualifier in a classed system, would you have been any better of a wrestler or recruit? 

[Y2CJ41]

So if you were a state qualifier in a classed system, would you have been any better of a wrestler or recruit? 

I would have likely been recruited more than I was as a non-state qualifier in a single class system. The only school that mentioned something to me about wrestling was Rose Hulman.

[Y2CJ41]

Right.  It is hard.  This data tells me that nearly all HS wrestlers have no desire to continue wrestling in college.  So classing wrestling will not change that.  I think if people want to convince others that class wrestling is the way to go, then the narrative needs to change from exposing kids to college coaches to something else.

I'm sure Trine wouldn't mind another 10-20 kids on their roster

I'm sure Manchester wouldn't mind another 10-20 kids on their roster

I'm sure Indianapolis wouldn't mind another 10-20 kids on their roster

I'm sure Wabash wouldn't mind another 10-20 kids on their roster

I'm sure that Ancilla and Marian both would love 30+ kids on their roster

 

More kids with the "hey maybe I should try wrestling in college" wouldn't hurt anyone.

 

[Wrestling Scholar]

_{If you want to see how a real state tournament is ran,  take a little road trip over to Columbus this weekend  and watch the Ohio state tournament.    They really know how to showcase the talent in the state.   Its not just wrestle a match and get the crap out stuff Indiana does.}

Edited March 2, 2016 by Wrestling Scholar

[Y2CJ41]

_{If you want to see how a real state tournament is ran,  take a little road trip over to Columbus this weekend  and watch the Ohio state tournament.    They know how to showcase the talent in the state.}   

Get there early or you likely won't be able to get a ticket.

[MD92]

 

I'm sure Trine wouldn't mind another 10-20 kids on their roster

I'm sure Manchester wouldn't mind another 10-20 kids on their roster

I'm sure Indianapolis wouldn't mind another 10-20 kids on their roster

I'm sure Wabash wouldn't mind another 10-20 kids on their roster

I'm sure that Ancilla and Marian both would love 30+ kids on their roster

 

More kids with the "hey maybe I should try wrestling in college" wouldn't hurt anyone.

 

 

I'm sure they would love more kids on the team.  But where are they going to get them?  The data doesn't support your view that kids want to wrestle at those schools, or any schools for that matter.  If they wanted to wrestle beyond high school, then those 10-20 kids would already be on the rosters at the schools you listed.

 

I know that when my senior season ended, I was done.  Physically and mentally I was done with wrestling.  It seems like 97% of HS wrestlers were/are like me.

[Y2CJ41]

I'm sure they would love more kids on the team.  But where are they going to get them?  The data doesn't support your view that kids want to wrestle at those schools, or any schools for that matter.  If they wanted to wrestle beyond high school, then those 10-20 kids would already be on the rosters at the schools you listed.

 

I know that when my senior season ended, I was done.  Physically and mentally I was done with wrestling.  It seems like 97% of HS wrestlers were/are like me.

A. The data shows that there are not that many wrestling opportunities in college compared to other sports. There are 326 schools with wrestling right now(NJCAA, NAIA, NCAA), there are 171 DII football programs alone.

 

B. Once again you are failing to realize that many kids check out of the sport when they aren't getting any bites on recruiting. Even if you recruit yourself, the coach isn't likely to spend a lot of time pursuing you. I got one phone call from the coach and visited with him for about 30 minutes when I went to Findlay.

 

You must not like to read my posts since I have to type them multiple times.

[Coach Nieman]

I would've gone to a smaller school had I known I could walk on to a d3 program.

[UncleJimmy]

A. The data shows that there are not that many wrestling opportunities in college compared to other sports. There are 326 schools with wrestling right now(NJCAA, NAIA, NCAA), there are 171 DII football programs alone.

 

B. Once again you are failing to realize that many kids check out of the sport when they aren't getting any bites on recruiting. Even if you recruit yourself, the coach isn't likely to spend a lot of time pursuing you. I got one phone call from the coach and visited with him for about 30 minutes when I went to Findlay.

 

You must not like to read my posts since I have to type them multiple times.

Regarding A....maybe we should be trying to grow the sport in the college ranks then? I'm all for growing the IN high school numbers as class proponents claim, but I'm confused because the argument seems to be it will lead to more college opportunities but point A leads me to believe it's a small, finite number so that argument is moot? I'm sure I'm missing something.

[MD92]

Regarding A....maybe we should be trying to grow the sport in the college ranks then? I'm all for growing the IN high school numbers as class proponents claim, but I'm confused because the argument seems to be it will lead to more college opportunities but point A leads me to believe it's a small, finite number so that argument is moot? I'm sure I'm missing something.

No, you aren't missing anything.  It just doens't fit Y2's narrative.

[KarlHungus]

I'm sure they would love more kids on the team.  But where are they going to get them?  The data doesn't support your view that kids want to wrestle at those schools, or any schools for that matter.  If they wanted to wrestle beyond high school, then those 10-20 kids would already be on the rosters at the schools you listed.

 

I know that when my senior season ended, I was done.  Physically and mentally I was done with wrestling.  It seems like 97% of HS wrestlers were/are like me.

Regarding A....maybe we should be trying to grow the sport in the college ranks then? I'm all for growing the IN high school numbers as class proponents claim, but I'm confused because the argument seems to be it will lead to more college opportunities but point A leads me to believe it's a small, finite number so that argument is moot? I'm sure I'm missing something.

 

Schools like Trine and Manchester would LOVE to have more wrestlers.  

[Y2CJ41]

Regarding A....maybe we should be trying to grow the sport in the college ranks then? I'm all for growing the IN high school numbers as class proponents claim, but I'm confused because the argument seems to be it will lead to more college opportunities but point A leads me to believe it's a small, finite number so that argument is moot? I'm sure I'm missing something.

Over the past ten years we have added Trine, Indiana Tech, Calumet College, Marian, and Ancilla, while only losing Rose Hulman. Michigan and Ohio has added probably about 8 teams also between the two of them.

 

The opportunities are there, but we need the kids to realize that and realize that wrestling in college is fun and a viable option.

 

This year we had 110 seniors qualify for state and 58 were placers. Here is a general breakdown for how many Indiana kids I'd expect each school to bring in each year.

 

IU 5

PU 5

Indy 10

Trine 10

Wabash 10

Manchester 10

Marian 10

Tech 10

Ancilla 15

Out of State 10

Total 95

 

This would lead to about 30 kids on each roster after attrition at the smaller schools. Ancilla needs more due to more attrition and being a two year school.

 

Of the 110 state qualifiers we need to figure in some that are done wrestling, some without the grades, some playing other sports in college, along with the other reasons that come with the sport. Now these coaches are needing to go after semi-state level kids, in which there are some diamonds in the rough. However I would venture to say a vast majority have resigned to the fact that they aren't college wrestling material.

[UncleJimmy]

Then why don't they have them or recruit them? Because IN doesn't have class wrestling and they need a 1A SQ instead of all class ticket rounder? I'm confused. I'd recommend they send one of those Trine form letters out to let kids know they are interested because the argument is the kid needs to be wanted, which I agree with. If they would love more wrestlers, let it be known. Doesn't seem hard, and since there is little/no athletic $ for it, seems easy peasy.

[MD92]

Clever, Karl.

 

The point is this:  The data shows that +/- 97% of HS wrestlers don't wrestle in college.  Classing wrestling will not magically provide more opportunities.  The kids that want to wrestle in college will.  They will go to Trine or Manchester or wherever.  But kids apparently don't want to.  Sometimes kids just want to get on with their lives and leave wrestling in the rear view mirror.

[KarlHungus]

Clever, Karl.

 

The point is this:  The data shows that +/- 97% of HS wrestlers don't wrestle in college.  Classing wrestling will not magically provide more opportunities.  The kids that want to wrestle in college will.  They will go to Trine or Manchester or wherever.  But kids apparently don't want to.  Sometimes kids just want to get on with their lives and leave wrestling in the rear view mirror.

 

You must not have read y2's outstanding and quite cogent reason why kids are not wrestling.  

[ENoblewrestling]

If so many people wanted to continue on with their wrestling careers wouldn't the University and Senior divisions at your local ISWA and HYWAY tournaments be stocked full of recent grads?

[KarlHungus]

huh?  

[Y2CJ41]

Then why don't they have them or recruit them? Because IN doesn't have class wrestling and they need a 1A SQ instead of all class ticket rounder? I'm confused. I'd recommend they send one of those Trine form letters out to let kids know they are interested because the argument is the kid needs to be wanted, which I agree with. If they would love more wrestlers, let it be known. Doesn't seem hard, and since there is little/no athletic $ for it, seems easy peasy.

First off as I have stated more than once, the more kids wrestling in college is ONE of the benefits of college wrestling....and by no means the best. If we have 50 kids a year wrestling in college, maybe class wrestling will increase that to 60-70, who knows, but more is better.

 

The form letters are not that effective, its casting a big net in hopes of gathering a few fish.

 

Recruiting in the state is extremely difficult when you have to assess four semi-states. College coaches can find that difficult with limited budget, limited staff, and being in the midst of their season. Kids aren't as interested in wrestling in college if they only make it to semi-state. That makes recruiting the 300+ seniors at semi-state even harder to try to find the ones that are interested and have the grades. 

 

In a classed system we'd have more kids with earlier success, thus helping propel them to be more interested in college wrestling.

[ENoblewrestling]

huh?  

MD was pointing out that many kids don't really want to or plan on wrestling after high school.  I was adding to his point by pointing out the fact that there is not a lot of participation at local tournaments at the university and senior levels, even though all you have to do is sign-up and show-up.  I agree with his statement that after high school a lot of kids are just done with wrestling as a competitor.  

[MD92]

First off as I have stated more than once, the more kids wrestling in college is ONE of the benefits of college wrestling....and by no means the best. If we have 50 kids a year wrestling in college, maybe class wrestling will increase that to 60-70, who knows, but more is better.

 

The form letters are not that effective, its casting a big net in hopes of gathering a few fish.

 

Recruiting in the state is extremely difficult when you have to assess four semi-states. College coaches can find that difficult with limited budget, limited staff, and being in the midst of their season. Kids aren't as interested in wrestling in college if they only make it to semi-state. That makes recruiting the 300+ seniors at semi-state even harder to try to find the ones that are interested and have the grades. 

 

In a classed system we'd have more kids with earlier success, thus helping propel them to be more interested in college wrestling.

I understand your point, but I think it is a stretch to assume that they will want to continue after HS.  Some will, but the majority won't.  All these other states have class wrestling and still only 2-3% continue on after HS.

[Wrestling Scholar]

Get there early or you likely won't be able to get a ticket.

I went one time to see the finals and the closest room I could find near Columbus, In was Springfield, OH.   Note the Arnold Classic is also in town on the same weekend.

[Y2CJ41]

MD was pointing out that many kids don't really want to or plan on wrestling after high school.  I was adding to his point by pointing out the fact that there is not a lot of participation at local tournaments at the university and senior levels, even though all you have to do is sign-up and show-up.  I agree with his statement that after high school a lot of kids are just done with wrestling as a competitor.  

Huh? Seriously? If you are judging how many kids want to wrestle in college by the numbers at local tournaments you are off your rocker. By those numbers there would be 10 kids interested in wrestling in college every year.

 

 

I understand your point, but I think it is a stretch to assume that they will want to continue after HS.  Some will, but the majority won't.  All these other states have class wrestling and still only 2-3% continue on after HS.

It's not a stretch to think that if more kids get more attention from college coaches they will want to wrestle in college more. Again, this is ONE of the benefits of classing wrestling.

 

Others include

Smaller schools get more recognition for wrestling

More kids having a good experience and coming back to help their programs

[ENoblewrestling]

Huh? Seriously? If you are judging how many kids want to wrestle in college by the numbers at local tournaments you are off your rocker. By those numbers there would be 10 kids interested in wrestling in college every year.

 

 

It's not a stretch to think that if more kids get more attention from college coaches they will want to wrestle in college more. Again, this is ONE of the benefits of classing wrestling.

 

Others include

Smaller schools get more recognition for wrestling

More kids having a good experience and coming back to help their programs

I am not judging how many kids want to wrestling in college based off of those numbers alone.  What I was pointing out was that if there were so many kids wanting to wrestle in college that the numbers might be higher at these tournaments, wouldn't you agree with that sentiment?