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Any change of hearts?


grappleapple

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How do you know the semi-state kid is going to be recruited? There are 224 state qualifiers, my guess is most the juniors or seniors will be or have been contacted by colleges. There are 672 semi-state qualifiers(not including state qualifiers), I doubt very many have been contacted by college coaches unless they placed at state or nationally before, or they initiated the recruitment process.

 

Never once in your scenario did you mention class wrestling. 

 

Note: By contacted I mean a personal contact from a coach or representative and not a form letter sent out by schools.

 

How many kids looking to go to a D3 school to wrestle are being turned away?  The financial package might be cost prohibitive but I don't think coaches are going to turn them away. 

 

As for me not mentioning class wrestling, isn't that what this thread is about? I am just trying to put a broader perspective on things.  For the record I am not a proponent of class wrestling if you're looking for a definitive answer. 

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Three things:

 

1. I agree with you that they prefer Wrestler A, and I think you're making the same points I was.  Small schools can't recruit "blue chippers" with sub par academics. 

2. Your wrestler A has a 1700 SAT. I assume that's a typo?

3. NAIA and D3 are different animals 

I was using the 2400 SAT point scale.    I think there's two scores,  a cumulative  and   reading and writing. 

I based my comparison of yours, but was trying to emphasize how athletic and academic awards are two different animals,  and that most high school students under estimate the power that having good grades and good scores can do for you in scholarships.

 

Actual athletic money is very limited,  and more so in wrestling as compared to other sports.

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How many kids looking to go to a D3 school to wrestle are being turned away?  The financial package might be cost prohibitive but I don't think coaches are going to turn them away. 

 

As for me not mentioning class wrestling, isn't that what this thread is about? I am just trying to put a broader perspective on things.  For the record I am not a proponent of class wrestling if you're looking for a definitive answer. 

 

Exactly...some of these kids might not even be looking to go to college at all if not for a little attention from a D3 wrestling coach.  Why not get more kids that kind of attention, thus get more kids thinking they might give the college thing a try?

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So a kid that is not interested in going to college (due to grades or opting to go to the military or the workforce) will all of a sudden be interested in going to a small, expensive D3 school with high academic standards just because a coach contacts him?  That might be true in some cases, but probably not all.

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How many kids looking to go to a D3 school to wrestle are being turned away?  The financial package might be cost prohibitive but I don't think coaches are going to turn them away. 

 

As for me not mentioning class wrestling, isn't that what this thread is about? I am just trying to put a broader perspective on things.  For the record I am not a proponent of class wrestling if you're looking for a definitive answer. 

When you have "state placer" on your resume it will peak the interest of the college coaches. Having "semi-state qualifier," not so much.

 

The college coaches don't dive into grades until AFTER the first contact. I get texts and emails from college coaches and the first thing they ask, who are the best unsigned guys. I list them and their weights, then they ask about grades and character. They aren't asking who has the best grades, then order them by wrestling ability. The non-state qualifier kids getting recruiting attention are either: hard luck kids that have spent time in the rankings, kids that contacted the college first, or have other connections to the college like previous camper or coach relationship. Those kids are HIGHLY unlikely to have college coaches talking to them, there are simply TOO many! When you add state placer to their resume you automatically increase their exposure to college coaches.

So a kid that is not interested in going to college (due to grades or opting to go to the military or the workforce) will all of a sudden be interested in going to a small, expensive D3 school with high academic standards just because a coach contacts him?  That might be true in some cases, but probably not all.

It will peak their interest and if the contact is early enough maybe it will shift their thinking that maybe college and wrestling in college is an option that could be explored. If they are contacted earlier in their high school careers, due to having more success they can improve grades and test scores to make college cheaper or even an option if grades/test scores were borderline.

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So a kid that is not interested in going to college (due to grades or opting to go to the military or the workforce) will all of a sudden be interested in going to a small, expensive D3 school with high academic standards just because a coach contacts him?  That might be true in some cases, but probably not all.

 

It is true in many cases.  I have coached many kids for whom this is a fact.  Some actually didn't even participate in college, but the thought of it early in their high school careers caused them to look into college and adjusted much of the way they handled themselves.  And small schools with wrestling programs (and track and football and basketball etc) are not all expensive nor have tremendous academic standards.  Some are looking to give kids a chance to better their lives and see athletics as a draw.

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 When you add state placer to their resume you automatically increase their exposure to college coaches.

 

 

Yes, I am familiar.  It's called lazy recruiting.  It's the same reason kids with measurables get scholarships, and the HS stud who's an inch too short or a tenth too slow can't get a D1 offer.  It a sad reality.

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Yes, I am familiar.  It's called lazy recruiting.  It's the same reason kids with measurables get scholarships, and the HS stud who's an inch too short or a tenth too slow can't get a D1 offer.  It a sad reality.

So then you are in agreement if more kids are labeled state qualifiers or placers that more will get exposure to colleges, correct?

 

I think we are digging way to deep into one of the class wrestling benefits.

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So then you are in agreement if more kids are labeled state qualifiers or placers that more will get exposure to colleges, correct?

 

I think we are digging way to deep into one of the class wrestling benefits.

 

Sure, but I'm still not drinking the class Kool-Aid!! I could explain further but it's time to go home and my mom makes a killer meatloaf....

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No, what I am saying is whether he's a state placer in a two class system or a semi-state qualifier in a one class system a D3 program will recruit him regardless. Going back to what I stated earlier, most D3 programs use their sports teams as marketing tools to recruit kids to go there.  I am also not suggesting that large colleges are better than small colleges and vice versa; that's a personal choice for each person to decide.  What I am saying is a multi class system is not going to be the boon to recruiting that is being alleged, IMO.  As mentioned earlier by someone else in this thread - most D1 schools are looking at the bigger national tourneys so they can compare apples to apples.  Kind of like how colleges want to see an SAT/ACT score more than high school GPA.  

Well said yet again.

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http://www.scholarshipstats.com/wrestling.html

Based on this data, I'm not seeing how classing wrestling in Indiana will create a big bump in the number of kids wrestling in college. Only 3.6% of HS wrestlers wrestle in college.

We just added two wrestling programs in this state this year. Albeit lower class programs but they are college programs.

Well said yet again.

Are you still here tuff guy?
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Semi State Qualifier mean nothing to any school that isn't in Indiana so  Wabash,UIndy, Calumet, Trine, In Tech, Marion, IU, PU have any kind of idea what that means and can probably send someone to scout the SS.

 

I was speaking with my old college coach this weekend and he was telling me how they just followed the state tournament (and that our system was not the best :P but that's another discussion) and were asking me about all my kids that placed. Not a word was mentioned about our 2 seniors who lost at SS. and that's a small NW D2 Ohio school (2700 under grads).  

 

Basically the point is hardly anyone will look up semi state results plain and simple.                     

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http://www.scholarshipstats.com/wrestling.html

 

Based on this data, I'm not seeing how classing wrestling in Indiana will create a big bump in the number of kids wrestling in college.  Only 3.6% of HS wrestlers wrestle in college.

 

Per statistics from the NCAA, in fact only 2.6% of HS wrestlers are *PARTICIPATING* at college level.  That's not a scholarship number, that is PARTICIPATING

 

NCAA Participation by Sport

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Wrestling is hard

Right.  It is hard.  This data tells me that nearly all HS wrestlers have no desire to continue wrestling in college.  So classing wrestling will not change that.  I think if people want to convince others that class wrestling is the way to go, then the narrative needs to change from exposing kids to college coaches to something else.

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Per statistics from the NCAA, in fact only 2.6% of HS wrestlers are *PARTICIPATING* at college level. That's not a scholarship number, that is PARTICIPATING

 

NCAA Participation by Sport

It looks as this statistical document doesn't take into the account for juco's or NAIA wrestling. That might be where the other 1 percent comes from. Edited by RASSLER4LIFE
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Right.  It is hard.  This data tells me that nearly all HS wrestlers have no desire to continue wrestling in college.  So classing wrestling will not change that.  I think if people want to convince others that class wrestling is the way to go, then the narrative needs to change from exposing kids to college coaches to something else.

Can't that be translated to there not being as many options to wrestle in college? There are only 326 teams in NAIA, NJCAA, and all of NCAA with wrestling. Considering 250,000 athletes wrestle a year that is very small.

 

And again, we are going pretty deep into one of the benefits like it is the ONLY benefit.

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Y2, I want to first admit that you are a really good debator, maybe even a masterdebator?  I don't know that's up for debation.  After I compliment your skills of arguing I'm going to try and learn from what you have done many many times in these class wrestling arguments.

 

First, you break down peoples post into paragraph and dissect peoples sentences out of context to try and expose different meaning out of what they are saying... which is what you will more and likely do to this post.

 

Second, you skew data by consistently calling MD class 3A which they are not!  I'll agree 100% that they are an outlier based off the fact that what surrounds that school is an insane wrestling community that live, breed, breathe wrestling, however when someone suggest a fact that does not promote class wrestling, you throw that fact out the window and call it an outlier. Also, couldn't you say the top 5 wrestling states that have class wrestling are an outlier?  How about we throw them out and consider them states with 1 class because they come from a community with strong ties to a great wrestling background.  We then use this argument to say states that class wrestling ruin the sport.  It makes no sense, you can not skew data. 

 

You will argue point 2 by saying MD will bump up.  Doesn't this also go against many of your other points about classing the sport?  You're gonna tell me that the MD coach will bump up his individuals from class A where they could have an absurd amount of champs and dominate the field (which would probably grow the confidence of 1A right).  MD will bump up to 3A for team but would not take the opportunity away from the individuals to wrestle at 1A.  That point being said brings me to point number 3 which you consistently mention kids in small schools are not as talented because of your "statistics."  You then go on to mention that classing Indiana Wrestling will not water down the state tournament.  Basically what you are proposing is classing state wrestling according to skill level.  You are bumping up MD to 3A in all your stats and assuming that's what they will do because it fits your argument and because they're good.  So 3A is not Big Schools?  You will be proposing that we have State Champ of Good Schools, State Champ of ok Schools and State champ of Struggling Schools.  This will then make struggling schools better and grow the sport.  I believe you would say that statement is Ludacris!

 

I want to leave a space so you have room to dissect this without taking it out of context.  My fourth point has to be the fact that you claim people who argue for class wrestling primarily base there argument around emotion. I will make a thesis to this paragraph containing two points: wrestling is about emotion as it is a sport that teaches many life lessons, and I believe this is another place where you hypocritically contradict yourself as you use emotion in your argument.  I don't care what any person for a one class system that we have says, you consistently come up with some reason to dispute it because you love to argue.  They could say a fact that in a one class system semi-state qualifiers do get recruited and yes those coaches from private schools send letters, I might also add that it might seem that a person who places at state will be recruited by colleges more, all of this depends on other circumstances. I have not read very many if any post where you admit that there are pro's and con's to both systems?  You fail to see anything benefical about our current system: true champ, exciting finals, feeling of accomplishment of being a state placer in this system?  On to second point of my thesis so you can follow, the supporters of the one class system support what it stands for be it small school or big school.  It has been stated earlier that wrestling in this system no matter how far the wrestler goes means a lot to that wrestler.  This is coming from past wrestlers so it's first hand experience of their emotion of how our system is.  To class our system by means of point 3 which is how you are proposing it by including MD in 3A is such a non-wrestling attitude at looking at this it sickens me.  I can't beat the best at the system we currently have so let's class it and give me a medal anyway and then maybe college coaches will notice me and sport will grow.  Is that your ideology? You argue that those kids won't know the difference and that a medal is a medal.  A medal is just a piece of material.  I saw an old teamstate medal on ebay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-2003-Indiana-High-School-Wrestling-State-Championship-Medal-Mater-Dei-W-Box-/381337728206?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368

You can buy that and put it on a shelf if that's how much the medal would mean to you.  A medal is a symbol for all the hardwork and dedication that wrestler put in it.  I believe wrestling probably tought the owner that lost that medal more than what the medal itself meant to him.

 

My actual thoughts on the topic besides pointing out many of what I consider to be flaws in your argument would obviously be that I am for the single class system.  I am aware of some of the advantages that a multi-class system might have when you look at Illinois, but I don't feel that Indiana has as much depth of wrestling at each level.  There are not consistently enough wrestling communities, or ties to each background throughout our state to consider this a solid option for our sport.  This is also backed by your "statistics".  If there were a great majority of wrestling depth throughout the state to make each class very competitive then it would be a different story.  Separating studs from the rest of the group does not sharpen the other wrestlers skills.  In my opinion,  I feel Indiana wrestling fans love the traditional setup we have. There might be houses for sale over in Illinois however if class wrestling emotionally means that much to you.

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Semi State Qualifier mean nothing to any school that isn't in Indiana so  Wabash,UIndy, Calumet, Trine, In Tech, Marion, IU, PU have any kind of idea what that means and can probably send someone to scout the SS.

 

I was speaking with my old college coach this weekend and he was telling me how they just followed the state tournament (and that our system was not the best :P but that's another discussion) and were asking me about all my kids that placed. Not a word was mentioned about our 2 seniors who lost at SS. and that's a small NW D2 Ohio school (2700 under grads).  

 

Basically the point is hardly anyone will look up semi state results plain and simple.                     

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a young Joe Caprino with flowing locks of hair, and a semi-state qualifier attend the same institution as a student athlete?

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