Any change of hearts?

[vito pepperelli]

"Money for college."  I keep hearing this same argument.

 

When did college wrestling programs get flush with cash and become revenue generators for their athletic departments?  

 

Am I missing something?

[Super_Fan]

"Money for college."  I keep hearing this same argument.

 

When did college wrestling programs get flush with cash and become revenue generators for their athletic departments?  

 

Am I missing something?

Even if they don't receive any money at all just by getting the chance to wrestle in college might be what helps get that kid through school... I know if it wasn't for sports in high school I probably wouldn't have ever made good enough grades to get into college...

 

Now whether college is right for that kid or not is a whole different topic of discussion... Lots of kids take on huge amounts of debt just to go to college and it ends up hurting them even more in the long run.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Super_Fan

[KarlHungus]

No, you're wrong.

 

I moved 1A after the 3-time champ and corrected "money's."

 

I'm putting my own comparison out there, not Y2's.

You did it after quoting him.  Your statement after quoting him is understood to be in response to the quote.  Then you used a different analogy in rebuttal.  Like I said, tough to follow when you are not on the same page. 

"Money for college."  I keep hearing this same argument.

 

When did college wrestling programs get flush with cash and become revenue generators for their athletic departments?  

 

Am I missing something?

Most colleges are flush with financial aid money.

[KarlHungus]

But it doesn't...

 

 

Is it really THAT important? lol I get your point but you're searching for things here... I would say its the same thing as you guys putting out data for 3 classes yet arguing for a 2 class system...

The data makes sense to many.

 

It is important if we want to have intelligent discussion.  If someone is changing the goalposts, I tend to disregard their argument.  Who are "you guys"?  I've always been a 3 class guy.  

[Y2CJ41]

"Money for college."  I keep hearing this same argument.

 

When did college wrestling programs get flush with cash and become revenue generators for their athletic departments?  

 

Am I missing something?

Maybe some will get a little scholarship money, but in the end there are other benefits. When kids are shown attention for wrestling earlier their wheels will start churning for the college process earlier. This means they aren't just looking at the local IU or PU extension or main campus. These kids are looking at other schools such as the smaller more expensive schools. If the kid knows as a sophomore or junior that Indianapolis is interested they will start the process of seeing how much it is and such. That includes maybe raising a GPA or test score knowing that if it's higher they get more financial money. They'll start looking at scholarships for people with Italian names and a balding father. If they find out in late February or early March of their senior year much of this is too late. On top of that Indy has more scholarship money for the class of 2017 right now than 2016, so if you get attention for 2017 you're way more likely to get athletic money.

[Wrestling Scholar]

Talking about college money.  Making the next step to college and wrestling is a big decision,  and to be fair,  most of the kids get partial scholarships or no scholarship at all.    Look at the Purdue roster.   30+ kids on it and they can only give out 9.9 scholarships.  That tells me most of the kids are walking on.  Just the way it is.     I think D2 U of Indy has less scholarships.      One trend I see favorable is the increase in the NAIA schools with wrestlng.  These schools are trying to increase attendance by giving partial scholarships.  Its win/win the schools are still getting the revenue they need  and student influx, and the wrestlers have a chance to compete.    Also the NAIA commitment isn't the all in you see at the D1 schools.   See Marion University as example.

 

Just a comparison,  surrounding states like Ohio, Illinois and Michigan are generating a lot more college wrestlers than Indiana.  I think proportionally more than their larger population size advantage.   I think there's a lot of talented Indiana wrestlers not moving on to the next level that could succeed in college.  Maybe this is  partially due to the lack of in state colleges with wrestling and I think partially how are wrestlers are showcased.

[Y2CJ41]

I think the key phrase here is more "college opportunities."  It appears some people don't understand that for some of these kids wresting in college is what will get them to even consider going to college. 

And wrestlers have the highest percentage of first generation college students of any sport.

[oldandbroke]

From my experiences speaking with a few college coaches especially from out of state, you try explaining that your underclassmen from a small school made it to the state tourney a couple times but lost by a point on Friday night so he doesn't get to wrestle again, while opponents you beat previously got a better draw and wrestle on to place because they won the Friday night match.......they have real difficulty understanding that it's a one and done on Friday night.  Most I talked to don't understand the single class system.  They are looking  for kids who prove they can win some matches at that point in the season.  Doesn't matter too much that you beat state champions from other states in the off-season if it's not something they happen to see.  I think we should class our tourney but we really need to have wrestle backs either way but dang sure if we don't class it out.  And yes by the time your wrestler finishes his senior season most of the D1 programs already have filled the roster so it doesn't much matter at that point to them.  The Smaller colleges are still looking for that last one or two to fill gaps.  

     The smaller high schools in Indiana are generally located in rural areas where kids have long drives sometimes 1-2 hours to get to an RTC or club to practice in the off season.  It's hard to find parent's that can afford the money or time to haul their kids that far to be able to be competitive. It's hard to find small schools that can afford to put together an off season team to travel and get more mat time to places like Disney, Virginia Beach, etc.. Unless a kid gets really lucky and a bigger program with a giving coach from out of your area knows you exist and needs a fill in on one of those teams, they won't get those opportunities.  If those kinds of opportunities aren't important then why are all of the most successful schools fielding teams?  How do schools with no wrestling rooms that roll mats on the gym floor daily to practice or tiny undersized storage closet conversions and share a one or two station "weight room" with the other teams compete with schools that have multi-mat wrestling rooms and weight rooms that are as long as a gym?

    And for the work harder crowd......  I watched one of our local wrestlers get up at 4 am travel to work on a hog farm, get off work and go to work bailing hay and straw painting houses and anything else he could find so he could drive the 1.5-2 hrs one way in the evenings to get to an RTC or a wrestling club and drive that far home during the summer.  During the school year he would go to work early in the mornings before school then to class, then practice and sometimes to work after practice if he didn't get done before school or didn't work before school.  Other kids couldn't believe he put that much into wrestling to have a chance of being a state champion. Kids everywhere work I understand that. But dang few kids work that hard, and that kid is one of many around the state that are doing their best to get better, so don't tell them to"work harder".........There are so many kids out there in these small rural schools working dang hard to be a state champion with limited resources and opportunities.  I believe many of them work just as hard or harder than most........just my two cents

[Wrestling Scholar]

And wrestlers have the highest percentage of first generation college students of any sport.

Ill add that wrestling has the highest ratio of the number of High school kids to the number of college roster spots.  I know its over 30 to 1.   Football has a ratio closer to 10-1 for comparison.

[base]

The point is not to compare our own big school vs small school.  (not all small school champs and placewinners are going to be "inferior" to the big school ones)

 

The point is to compare our small school wrestlers with the achievements of small school wrestlers from other states.  Indiana's are just as good, if not better, than most from other states.  But those small school wrestlers from other states with classed wrestling are getting the attention and offers that ours are not.  This will result in more college opportunities for our wrestlers now.  When they graduate and (some) come back to Indiana, that will increase our overall level in the future.

 

Well stated....I get what you're saying

 

I'm still not convinced that the classing would lead to the results you are expecting.  But, it is possible.  I still argue that a wrestler of Crary's skill level "deserves" college wrestling attention moreso that a less skilled wrestler that just happens to go to a smaller school.  But....if that's the high level look that college coaches are giving then maybe we should indeed put some names on the "small school state champion/placer" list that doesn't exist within our state now.

[Y2CJ41]

Well stated....I get what you're saying

 

I'm still not convinced that the classing would lead to the results you are expecting.  But, it is possible.  I still argue that a wrestler of Crary's skill level "deserves" college wrestling attention moreso that a less skilled wrestler that just happens to go to a smaller school.  But....if that's the high level look that college coaches are giving then maybe we should indeed put some names on the "small school state champion/placer" list that doesn't exist within our state now.

If we'd go to a classed system it would increase kids like Crary's chances of going to state, albeit not as much as a small school kid. Right now in a two classed system it's approximately 12.5/3.5 in terms of 2A qualifiers to 1A. In a 3 class setup its 10/4.5/1.5.  So in a two class system big schools would get 3.5 more qualifiers per weight and possibly 6 in a three class system.

 

Obviously if we expand to 24 or 32 qualifiers in a one class system his chances increase substantially.

 

Again, just increasing qualifiers will still do little to help small schools as they will may have an increase in qualifiers, but in all honesty I'd tend to think they'd lose placers with more big school kids in the mix. With our no wrestle-back system we tend to get some artificial spikes in qualifiers due to the draw.

[base]

The easiest answer is this, wrestling isn't exactly thriving at small schools. Do we want it to continue to slide down or should we help them? Even though there are inferior teams in other class sports we still give them recognition and allow them their own state tournament.

 

College coaches look at results, a two time state champion is going to get more interest than a two time semi-state qualifier. Whether you consider it watered down or not, it's way better to put state champion on your resume than semi-state qualifier.

 

I find it interesting that you seem to have no issue watering down the state tournament by adding more qualifiers, yet don't want to do it to help small schools. It's much like when we expanded the semi-state qualifiers by 56 and no one batted an eye. Won't we be artificially creating state qualifiers to kids that "haven't earned it?" It would help small schools, but going from 3.5 to 7 isn't as good as going from 3.5 to 8 or 16. On top of that it won't increase the number of state placers for small schools and I'd even argue that it would probably hurt that percentage.

 

I'm not totally against an expansion of state qualifiers, but coming from the people that constantly tell me not to water down state by adding classes I get confused. I would think the people who preach about watering down the state tournament would be more for making it 12 state qualifiers before 32.

 

I do understand the part about college coaches seeing "two-time state champion" and giving that more credence than "two-time semi state qualifier".

 

I didnt' consider adding another round to the tournament as "watering down" only because you are still taking the best kids.  Watering down is adding kids to the tournament that would lose to kids that are not at the tournament.

 

I'm starting to come around to the classed state idea a bit more -- i disagree with the entire premise of it really, but the fact that there may be college coaches out there who are scanning the list of Indiana wrestlers looking for "state placer" / "state champion" is causing me to reconsider.

 

How about we get some small college coaches on here to give us some insight as to how they go about recruiting?  That would be an excellent article.  Trine, Wabash, UofIndy -- all would be fantastic to give their opinion on this and how class wrestling could have an effect versus, say summer wrestling results.

[UncleJimmy]

I do understand the part about college coaches seeing "two-time state champion" and giving that more credence than "two-time semi state qualifier".

 

I didnt' consider adding another round to the tournament as "watering down" only because you are still taking the best kids.  Watering down is adding kids to the tournament that would lose to kids that are not at the tournament.

 

I'm starting to come around to the classed state idea a bit more -- i disagree with the entire premise of it really, but the fact that there may be college coaches out there who are scanning the list of Indiana wrestlers looking for "state placer" / "state champion" is causing me to reconsider.

 

How about we get some small college coaches on here to give us some insight as to how they go about recruiting?  That would be an excellent article.  Trine, Wabash, UofIndy -- all would be fantastic to give their opinion on this and how class wrestling could have an effect versus, say summer wrestling results.

Great idea...thought about starting a separate topic thread for this.

 

Also, for a D3, NAIA type kid...what works to attract interest? Is it on the parents to contact those schools? How much impact does the HS coach have? Does just sending videos to random schools have any effect? I don't want to hijack the thread but as the topic started wandering to opportunities at the next non D1 level I had the same thoughts.

[Y2CJ41]

I do understand the part about college coaches seeing "two-time state champion" and giving that more credence than "two-time semi state qualifier".

 

I didnt' consider adding another round to the tournament as "watering down" only because you are still taking the best kids.  Watering down is adding kids to the tournament that would lose to kids that are not at the tournament.

 

I'm starting to come around to the classed state idea a bit more -- i disagree with the entire premise of it really, but the fact that there may be college coaches out there who are scanning the list of Indiana wrestlers looking for "state placer" / "state champion" is causing me to reconsider.

 

How about we get some small college coaches on here to give us some insight as to how they go about recruiting?  That would be an excellent article.  Trine, Wabash, UofIndy -- all would be fantastic to give their opinion on this and how class wrestling could have an effect versus, say summer wrestling results.

I have a hard time wrapping my head around the watering down argument if we just expand to 24/32 qualifiers. Aren't we watering it down with kids that wouldn't have gotten to state before? Adding more qualifiers means its less prestigious to be a state qualifier no matter if you add them from big or small schools. 

 

The college attention is one reason for going to classes, but in all honesty the big reason is giving small schools a fighting chance. The attention kids and the sport would get from getting at the small schools where wrestling is struggling. With more people at these schools getting attention it will help grown the sport there. More people will know about the sport and their successes, more kids will start wrestling at the youth level, etc. One of the biggest things I think is the trickle down effect of more kids getting closer to a state spot or just being a qualifier. Those kids are going to be likely to do more camps, RTC's, etc. At the small schools one thing I saw was kids put more time into other sports because they knew their varsity spot was never in risk...instead now they have the motivation of being close to going to state or placing.

[Y2CJ41]

Great idea...thought about starting a separate topic thread for this.

 

Also, for a D3, NAIA type kid...what works to attract interest? Is it on the parents to contact those schools? How much impact does the HS coach have? Does just sending videos to random schools have any effect? I don't want to hijack the thread but as the topic started wandering to opportunities at the next non D1 level I had the same thoughts.

Here is my honest opinion...yes if you want to wrestle in college, especially at the small school level you need to market yourself. Those schools while they love state champs and placers are looking at qualifiers or almost qualifiers...in which there are basically twice as many. In a perfect world you are right about marketing yourself.

 

BUT, how does a kid know he's college wrestling material? Does getting a little interest from schools turn the "hey I think I want to wrestle in college" switch on faster or easier? I'd like to think so and that may drive kids to market themselves when they truly believe they are wanted instead of uninvited guests.

[allyourbase]

You did it after quoting him.  Your statement after quoting him is understood to be in response to the quote.  Then you used a different analogy in rebuttal.  Like I said, tough to follow when you are not on the same page. 

 

I'm sure you're able to follow the conversation nonetheless.

[vito pepperelli]

Most colleges are flush with financial aid money.

 

Flush?  I think you might be overstating it a bit. Most smaller schools use their financial aid money to lower the cost of their private school tuition closer to that of the state schools.  It's simple math and how smaller colleges  market themselves.  

 

Let me pose this scenario--Suppose we have a small Indiana college with a wrestling team.  They are competitive, but certainly not at a level of churning out national championships individually or as a team.  Who are they more likely to "recruit:" 

 

Wrestler A with a 3.8 GPA, 1200 SAT, semi-state qualifer

 

Wrestler B with a 3.0 GPA, 1000 SAT, 1X state placer

 

Truthfully, I don't know.  If I had to venture a guess I would say they probably recruit both, but Wrestler A is going to get more of their "flush" financial aid?  For a lot of D3 schools, not all, sports serve as a marketing/recruiting tool for prospective students, and I think small college sports is mutually beneficial to both parties (wrestler and school).

Edited March 1, 2016 by vito pepperelli

[Y2CJ41]

Flush? I think you might be overstating it a bit. Most smaller schools use their financial aid money to lower the cost of their private school tuition closer to that of the state schools. It's simple math and how smaller colleges market themselves.

 

Let me pose this scenario--Suppose we have a small Indiana college with a wrestling team. They are competitive, but certainly not at a level of churning out national championships individually or as a team. Who are they more likely to "recruit:"

 

Wrestler A with a 3.8 GPA, 1200 SAT, semi-state qualifer

 

Wrestler B with a 3.0 GPA, 1000 SAT, 1X state placer

 

Truthfully, I don't know. If I had to venture a guess I would say they probably recruit both, but Wrestler A is going to get more of their "flush" financial aid? For a lot of D3 schools, not all, sports serve as a marketing/recruiting tool for prospective students, and I think small college sports is mutually beneficial to both parties (wrestler and school).

The better question is who will they pursue harder? I'd say the state placer.

[KarlHungus]

Flush?  I think you might be overstating it a bit. Most smaller schools use their financial aid money to lower the cost of their private school tuition closer to that of the state schools.  It's simple math and how smaller colleges  market themselves.  

 

Let me pose this scenario--Suppose we have a small Indiana college with a wrestling team.  They are competitive, but certainly not at a level of churning out national championships individually or as a team.  Who are they more likely to "recruit:" 

 

Wrestler A with a 3.8 GPA, 1200 SAT, semi-state qualifer

 

Wrestler B with a 3.0 GPA, 1000 SAT, 1X state placer

 

Truthfully, I don't know.  If I had to venture a guess I would say they probably recruit both, but Wrestler A is going to get more of their "flush" financial aid?  For a lot of D3 schools, not all, sports serve as a marketing/recruiting tool for prospective students, and I think small college sports is mutually beneficial to both parties (wrestler and school).

 

I know both Wabash and Trine have excellent need based FA.  Both are flush with financial aid.

I'm sure you're able to follow the conversation nonetheless.

 

Sure I can follow it but the more you change the goalposts the less effective your argument becomes.

[vito pepperelli]

The better question is who will they pursue harder? I'd say the state placer.

 

True, and he might be in deeper college loan debt because of it.  

[Galagore]

True, and he might be in deeper college loan debt because of it.  

 

Are you suggesting that he would be better off not being pursued by the school?

[vito pepperelli]

Are you suggesting that he would be better off not being pursued by the school?

 

No, what I am saying is whether he's a state placer in a two class system or a semi-state qualifier in a one class system a D3 program will recruit him regardless. Going back to what I stated earlier, most D3 programs use their sports teams as marketing tools to recruit kids to go there.  I am also not suggesting that large colleges are better than small colleges and vice versa; that's a personal choice for each person to decide.  What I am saying is a multi class system is not going to be the boon to recruiting that is being alleged, IMO.  As mentioned earlier by someone else in this thread - most D1 schools are looking at the bigger national tourneys so they can compare apples to apples.  Kind of like how colleges want to see an SAT/ACT score more than high school GPA.  

[Wrestling Scholar]

Flush?  I think you might be overstating it a bit. Most smaller schools use their financial aid money to lower the cost of their private school tuition closer to that of the state schools.  It's simple math and how smaller colleges  market themselves.  

 

Let me pose this scenario--Suppose we have a small Indiana college with a wrestling team.  They are competitive, but certainly not at a level of churning out national championships individually or as a team.  Who are they more likely to "recruit:" 

 

Wrestler A with a 3.8 GPA, 1200 SAT, semi-state qualifer

 

Wrestler B with a 3.0 GPA, 1000 SAT, 1X state placer

 

Truthfully, I don't know.  If I had to venture a guess I would say they probably recruit both, but Wrestler A is going to get more of their "flush" financial aid?  For a lot of D3 schools, not all, sports serve as a marketing/recruiting tool for prospective students, and I think small college sports is mutually beneficial to both parties (wrestler and school).

Schools offer financial aid too athletes in two parts, (Academic and Athletic). Also need based scholarships are also available, but very limited.     Note the athletic team is restricted to a certain budget and scholarships depending on level.  Keep in mind private schools have a significantly higher sticker price but offer dramatically larger scholarships to bring in line with public schools.

 

The academic awards are based on a grid between SAT/ACT score and GPA.    So the higher your GPA and SAT, you fall in a higher reward spot on that grid.

 

Here's a more realistic comparison for a small NAIA school offering a scholarship.

 

 

Small Private NAIA School:

Wrestler A :  3.8 GPA,  1700 SAT  ( Semi State Qualifier)

 

Tuition +Room and Board          $43,000

   Academic Scholarship            ($25,000) (based on predetermined formula)

   Athletic Scholarship                ($4,000)

 

Total Cost wrestler A                 $14,000

 

 

Wrestler B:  3.0 GPA  1000 SAT  (State Placer)

 

 Tuition + Room & Board            $43,000

 Academic scholarship               ( $8,000) (based on pre-determined formula)

 Athletic Scholarship                ( $12,000)

 

Total Cost Wrestler B                $23,000

 

Yes,  coach would have wrestler B, the state placer and is offering him $8K more scholarship,  but his chances of recruiting him is going to more difficult because it costs him more to go to school there.    Wrestler A can go to private school for less than the local public school.   Wrestler B is paying more than the local public school.   Also factor in that wrestler A is more likely to succeed at the academic institution and more likely to stay around for four years.   I argue that the college coach would more likely recruit wrestler A.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Wrestling Scholar

[Y2CJ41]

No, what I am saying is whether he's a state placer in a two class system or a semi-state qualifier in a one class system a D3 program will recruit him regardless. Going back to what I stated earlier, most D3 programs use their sports teams as marketing tools to recruit kids to go there.  I am also not suggesting that large colleges are better than small colleges and vice versa; that's a personal choice for each person to decide.  What I am saying is a multi class system is not going to be the boon to recruiting that is being alleged, IMO.  As mentioned earlier by someone else in this thread - most D1 schools are looking at the bigger national tourneys so they can compare apples to apples.  Kind of like how colleges want to see an SAT/ACT score more than high school GPA.  

How do you know the semi-state kid is going to be recruited? There are 224 state qualifiers, my guess is most the juniors or seniors will be or have been contacted by colleges. There are 672 semi-state qualifiers(not including state qualifiers), I doubt very many have been contacted by college coaches unless they placed at state or nationally before, or they initiated the recruitment process.

 

Never once in your scenario did you mention class wrestling. 

 

Note: By contacted I mean a personal contact from a coach or representative and not a form letter sent out by schools.

[vito pepperelli]

Schools offer financial aid too athletes in two parts, (Academic and Athletic). Also need based scholarships are also available, but very limited.     Note the athletic team is restricted to a certain budget and scholarships depending on level.  Keep in mind private schools have a significantly higher sticker price but offer dramatically larger scholarships to bring in line with public schools.

 

The academic awards are based on a grid between SAT/ACT score and GPA.    So the higher your GPA and SAT, you fall in a higher reward spot on that grid.

 

Here's a more realistic comparison for a small NAIA school offering a scholarship.

 

 

Small Private NAIA School:

Wrestler A :  3.8 GPA,  1700 SAT  ( Semi State Qualifier)

 

Tuition +Room and Board          $43,000

   Academic Scholarship            ($25,000) (based on predetermined formula)

   Athletic Scholarship                ($4,000)

 

Total Cost wrestler A                 $14,000

 

 

Wrestler B:  3.0 GPA  1000 SAT  (State Placer)

 

 Tuition + Room & Board            $43,000

 Academic scholarship               ( $8,000) (based on pre-determined formula)

 Athletic Scholarship                ( $12,000)

 

Total Cost Wrestler B                $23,000

 

Yes,  coach would have wrestler B, the state placer and is offering him $8K more scholarship,  but his chances of recruiting him is going to more difficult because it costs him more to go to school there.    Wrestler A can go to private school for less than the local public school.   Wrestler B is paying more than the local public school.   Also factor in that wrestler A is more likely to succeed at the academic institution and more likely to stay around for four years.   I argue that the college coach would more likely recruit wrestler A.

Three things:

 

1. I agree with you that they prefer Wrestler A, and I think you're making the same points I was.  Small schools can't recruit "blue chippers" with sub par academics. 

2. Your wrestler A has a 1700 SAT. I assume that's a typo?

3. NAIA and D3 are different animals