Any change of hearts?

[Walter Sobchak]

Here's a thought:  Class the sectional, regional and Semi-States.  4 classes 4 semi-states.  You WIN your semi-state you're called a State Champion.  those 16 kids are then qualified for the Tournament of Champions at Bankers life. 

[Y2CJ41]

Being from a "small school" myself never crossed my mind while competing at the highest level. I've never heard my kids or any other of our athletes complain about being from a small school and how hard it is to compete. Do you hear your wrestlers complain about it? It seems this argument only comes from the coaches and parents involved, not the actual participants.

 

Maybe I'm wrong.

So that means the kids will compete in what ever system there is. Did any of the Monrovia kids complain about a classed system for football?

[allyourbase]

So that means the kids will compete in what ever system there is. Did any of the Monrovia kids complain about a classed system for football?

Individual vs. team sport, Joe.

 

I believe we could have competed with any of the championship teams this year. I may be a little biased.

[Fabio Jr.]

Just bump up to 6A then

[allyourbase]

Just bump up to 6A then

Back on topic.

[Y2CJ41]

Individual vs. team sport, Joe.

 

I believe we could have competed with any of the championship teams this year. I may be a little biased.

But Monrovia wasn't the true champions, how does that make the kids feel? Curious if any of them tossed their medals in the trash since they were true champions.

[wrestlenewbie]

It seems to me that no one ever talks about Illinois in these debates about class wrestling (or an actual team state for that matter), though I have seen the examples of other states brought up previously.

 

Illinois has both class wrestling and team state (sectionals finished yesterday). While I live in Illinois I follow Indiana wrestling so I feel unknowledgeable on the topic.

 

Can anyone expand on whether an Illinois/Indiana comparison is fair? And on whether class wrestling and team state are considered successful/useful in Illinois?

Edited February 24, 2016 by wrestlenewbie

[allyourbase]

But Monrovia wasn't the true champions, how does that make the kids feel? Curious if any of them tossed their medals in the trash since they were true champions.

They feel pretty good.

 

Thanks for your concern.

[MattM]

Classed systems seems to work well for IL, OH, PA, who consistently rank in the top 5.

You may need to approach that from a different angle.  That argument wouldn't account for the 30+ states that are classed for wrestling who are routinely considered below Indiana in terms of wrestling talent.  Or if you take away the state that are near or closing in on Indiana, the 20+ state who haven't seen nearly the wrestling development with their classed system.  That argument speaks more to the long wrestling tradition and decades of wrestling development at the youth levels in those states than just creating a class system in HS.  Aspects of classed wrestling may be a factor in their growth, but it is hard to tell when the 30+ other state examples of classed wrestling haven't seen near that level of success.

 

 

As I've mentioned in the past taking a good look at the infrastructure some of these traditional wrestling state have created, as well as, looking to see what some of the fast rising states have implemented in the last few years may provide some indication on the steps our state needs to take to move higher on the state rankings.  We will likely find that Indiana has began to implement some of those successful measures, but should continue to cultivate and expand them.  It may also be found that, classed wrestling make the list of possible items.   But I have a feeling it is not as high on the list other items that have allowed those states to continue to show growth. 

Edited February 24, 2016 by MattM

[Novice Bat]

I'm sure mason Parris and his fan group would rather watch him maul on lesser competition at a 2A state tournament rather than face the best competition that will make him better at the state tournament

Edited February 24, 2016 by Novice Bat

[Y2CJ41]

I'm sure mason Parris and his fan group would rather watch him maul on lesser competition at a 2A state tournament rather than face the best competition that will make him better at the state tournament

If we had two classes he would have had Evan Ellis in the finals, I'm sure that would have been a fine finals match as it was a pretty good semi-finals one this year.

 

These darn facts are stupid.

[CoachM]

You may need to approach that from a different angle.  That argument wouldn't account for the 30+ states that are classed for wrestling who are routinely considered below Indiana in terms of wrestling talent.  Or if you take away the state that are near or closing in on Indiana, the 20+ state who haven't seen nearly the wrestling development with their classed system.  That argument speaks more to the long wrestling tradition and decades of wrestling development at the youth levels in those states than just creating a class system in HS.  Aspects of classed wrestling may be a factor in their growth, but it is hard to tell when the 30+ other state examples of classed wrestling haven't seen near that level of success.

 

 

As I've mentioned in the past taking a good look at the infrastructure some of these traditional wrestling state have created, as well as, looking to see what some of the fast rising states have implemented in the last few years may provide some indication on the steps our state needs to take to move higher on the state rankings.   

How about the fact that IL has about 2x the population of IN and has added a third class in the past 10 years.  I would argue that IL wrestling has gotten better since the addition of a third class, not worse as some believe would happen if IN moved to class. The only states that are regular top 10 states that are one class are CA and NJ and both have huge populations.

Jordan Burroughs was a 1xer from NJ and regularly talks about the fact that he wasn't really recruited coming out of hs. This is the biggest part of the argument that needs to be considered when talking about classing wrestling. Colleges are very limited on scholarships and a resume that doesn't include state qualifier and place winner isn't going to get the same look as a 1A kid from IL who has that on his.   

Edited February 24, 2016 by CoachM

[Novice Bat]

If we had two classes he would have had Evan Ellis in the finals, I'm sure that would have been a fine finals match as it was a pretty good semi-finals one this year.

 

These darn facts are stupid.

Wouldn't have faced Gunnar Larson and would not have the potential matchup with Woods.

[grappleapple]

When figuring the percentage of kids that reach the state finals from different sized schools, it does show a disadvantage to the small schools. But when you figure the number of students these schools have - I would guess that might alter things.

For instance, and this is hypothetical because I haven't done the research - but say Blue River, a school with a senior class of around 50, has four wrestlers (which it does). Those four wrestlers are going to automatically qualify for sectionals, and have a shot at advancing further.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, you have a Warren Central with 3,685 students (922 per class). They have 14 wrestlers on varsity, and several wrestlers on the JV team not able to crack the varsity lineup. Those JV guys don't get to compete in sectional and have no shot at going to state. So Blue River, with its four wrestlers, at least gets a chance whereas the majority of kids in a vastly bigger school does not.

So by classing state, Blue River will still get its four wrestlers in the tournament. But Warren Central still has upwards of 40 plus wrestlers that get no shot at competing in the tournament.

I'd argue that small schools have a slight advantage in that regard. They get to be varsity wrestlers and can compete in the state tournament, whereas good wrestlers at larger schools have to first crack the varsity lineup to even have a shot.

[SWSpectator]

I am in between on this, I see both sides to the argument. One point I would like to make is that regardless of school size, each individual has the same opportunities as everybody throughout the state. Just because you are from a 1A school doesn't mean as an individual you can't go seek out better training, camps, workout partners, etc in the off-season to get better, and the same for an individual from a 3A school can do the same. Now yes during the season the 1A individual may suffer more due to the lack of practice partners in the room, but if that individual puts in the time in the off season seeking out the best available help then it shouldn't matter. Last time I checked, being from the south I don't think Maurer Coughlin club is going to turn away some kid just because he is from a 1A school. I really like the way the system is now, one champion for each weight.

[CoachM]

Wouldn't have faced Gunnar Larson and would not have the potential matchup with Woods.

That wasn't the point of the argument. The point was that the competition would have still been good even if it was classed. He also mauled Larson so it doesn't seem to matter if it was classed or not, same result. 

Edited February 24, 2016 by CoachM

[Y2CJ41]

Wouldn't have faced Gunnar Larson and would not have the potential matchup with Woods.

Here would be potential finals matches, of the 14 we had this weekend...only two wouldn't materialize in a two class system. If you are hanging on one match out of 280 that we wouldn't see you are clinging to very little.

 

--------1A----2A

106--Watts vs. Denny----Same

113--Lohrey vs. Whitman----Same

120--Glogouski vs. ???----Same

126--Dillbeck vs. Becker----Same

132--Welliver vs. Gunsett----Same

138--McCoy vs Rasler----Same

145--Rodriguez/Cowan/Kerrn/Bethel----Same

152--Bates vs. Sturgill----Same

160--Frazee vs. Levitz----Same

170--Mote vs. Baumgartner----Hughes vs. Walton

182--Worm vs. Blakeley----Same

195--Elliott vs Maddox----Same

220--Parris vs. Ellis----Larson vs. Guhl

285--Klem vs. Mammolenti----Same

[Barry Humble Jr.]

A classed state tournament would actually bring more fans. And it is VERY hard for small schools. Most bigger top 10 teams brought more wrestlers to state than we did to sectionals.

[Y2CJ41]

When figuring the percentage of kids that reach the state finals from different sized schools, it does show a disadvantage to the small schools. But when you figure the number of students these schools have - I would guess that might alter things.

For instance, and this is hypothetical because I haven't done the research - but say Blue River, a school with a senior class of around 50, has four wrestlers (which it does). Those four wrestlers are going to automatically qualify for sectionals, and have a shot at advancing further.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, you have a Warren Central with 3,685 students (922 per class). They have 14 wrestlers on varsity, and several wrestlers on the JV team not able to crack the varsity lineup. Those JV guys don't get to compete in sectional and have no shot at going to state. So Blue River, with its four wrestlers, at least gets a chance whereas the majority of kids in a vastly bigger school does not.

So by classing state, Blue River will still get its four wrestlers in the tournament. But Warren Central still has upwards of 40 plus wrestlers that get no shot at competing in the tournament.

I'd argue that small schools have a slight advantage in that regard. They get to be varsity wrestlers and can compete in the state tournament, whereas good wrestlers at larger schools have to first crack the varsity lineup to even have a shot.

That "advantage" doesn't translate into state qualifiers or state placers though.

[KarlHungus]

When figuring the percentage of kids that reach the state finals from different sized schools, it does show a disadvantage to the small schools. But when you figure the number of students these schools have - I would guess that might alter things.

For instance, and this is hypothetical because I haven't done the research - but say Blue River, a school with a senior class of around 50, has four wrestlers (which it does). Those four wrestlers are going to automatically qualify for sectionals, and have a shot at advancing further.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, you have a Warren Central with 3,685 students (922 per class). They have 14 wrestlers on varsity, and several wrestlers on the JV team not able to crack the varsity lineup. Those JV guys don't get to compete in sectional and have no shot at going to state. So Blue River, with its four wrestlers, at least gets a chance whereas the majority of kids in a vastly bigger school does not.

So by classing state, Blue River will still get its four wrestlers in the tournament. But Warren Central still has upwards of 40 plus wrestlers that get no shot at competing in the tournament.

I'd argue that small schools have a slight advantage in that regard. They get to be varsity wrestlers and can compete in the state tournament, whereas good wrestlers at larger schools have to first crack the varsity lineup to even have a shot.

 

 

Are you serious?

[Y2CJ41]

I am in between on this, I see both sides to the argument. One point I would like to make is that regardless of school size, each individual has the same opportunities as everybody throughout the state. Just because you are from a 1A school doesn't mean as an individual you can't go seek out better training, camps, workout partners, etc in the off-season to get better, and the same for an individual from a 3A school can do the same. Now yes during the season the 1A individual may suffer more due to the lack of practice partners in the room, but if that individual puts in the time in the off season seeking out the best available help then it shouldn't matter. Last time I checked, being from the south I don't think Maurer Coughlin club is going to turn away some kid just because he is from a 1A school. I really like the way the system is now, one champion for each weight.

Ahh yes the "work harder" argument, I LOVE it. So are you saying that since 1A kids don't have as much success they don't work as hard as 3A kids?

[Westforkwhite]

Small schools accounted for 27% of the entries in the state tournament. Yet only 12.74% made it to state and a whooping 2.36% were state placers. Churubusco entered the same number of kids in the state tournament as Carroll, Perry Meridian, Garrett, etc.

 

The 1A schools represent 11% of the total student population, and likely near that same percentage of wrestlers (#'s in the room) When a team like Warren Central sends 14 guys to sectionals they get to pick from 50+ kids in the room. So those 14 represent 50+. Whereas the forfeit numbers in 1A suggest the average is close 10 sectional entries per team, so those 10 kids represent 10-12 wrestlers. It's hard to say our system is grossly unfair, even to the small schools as they are fairly represented both in terms of total student enrollment and participation rates. There are some good arguments for class wrestling but this and the forfeit data neither suggest overall improvement with the implementation of class wrestling (Y2K has made his point that it would help small schools, but it seems to come at the expense of the overall forfeit and participation rates)

[grappleapple]

Are you serious?

Yes - why?

 

I have witnessed on multiple occasion kids that weren't varsity level at a larger school, going to a neighboring small school in order to make varsity. I don't see this point as being anything unbelievable. Am I missing something?

[Barry Humble Jr.]

1A kids do not have the same opportunities. A good kid can go to all the camps and get good but the lack of drill partners cost them in season. Almost every year I got worse during the season and better in the off season

I am in between on this, I see both sides to the argument. One point I would like to make is that regardless of school size, each individual has the same opportunities as everybody throughout the state. Just because you are from a 1A school doesn't mean as an individual you can't go seek out better training, camps, workout partners, etc in the off-season to get better, and the same for an individual from a 3A school can do the same. Now yes during the season the 1A individual may suffer more due to the lack of practice partners in the room, but if that individual puts in the time in the off season seeking out the best available help then it shouldn't matter. Last time I checked, being from the south I don't think Maurer Coughlin club is going to turn away some kid just because he is from a 1A school. I really like the way the system is now, one champion for each weight.

[SWSpectator]

I'm not saying "work harder" at all. You guys are stating that 1A individuals have a low percentage of making it to the state finals correct?? So, what is the difference between a 3A individual and a 1A individual??? All individuals have the same opportunities to improve in the off season regardless of school size. If that 1A individual wants to get better then they have the same opportunity to get in the big time club rooms, go to the big time camps, seek out better workout partners in there area, etc. as do the 3A individuals.